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<p>I still don’t think we (or the OP and her H) know the whole story. I am not at all convinced that there isn’t drug use or other behaviors that we aren’t hearing about because they may not even be known to the parents. This is simply not acceptable behavior (we all agree on that) and it isn’t likely to change any time soon.</p>
<p>No, we don’t know the “whole” story. Just what is posted here. Parents may not know it all either. But she doesn’t sound like an alcoholic or drug addict…she obtains decent grades and holds jobs and functions. She acts out and immaturely and disrepectfully to the parents. She has poor attitudes and entitlement and is fresh (though has gotten away with it). She has a poor relationship with the parents. Some of the things that aggravate them are surely aggravating…talking back, cursing at them, tantrums to get her way, etc. Some things that bother the parents are not so terrible (doesn’t like to crack a book or study much but gets by with average grades). Goes to parties on campus Thurs. through Saturday. Not great but within normalcy for some of these things. She was an average student in high school and so this is not a big change on the academic front either. I think the academics is the least problem here. If she were failing or losing credits, I’d agree to not pay for it but she produces average work and is never gonna be like the sons. In any case, her behaviors, in my opinion, are not so terrible as to not be able to live in a dorm or apartment and in fact, some of the acting out with the parents might dissipate if she is not living under their wing and is treated more as an adult. She needs to grow up. The situation at home reminds me of teen behavior in high school and conflicts with parents and she should be more separate now.</p>
<p>Curious with all of this going on with the daughter what is happening with the 88 year old dad. The OP started a long thread just a few months ago that I remember well about how much time she was having to spend with the dad in caregiving,how her brother was in contol of dad’s finances and she had some issues with that,how her nieces were “disgusting” and selfish because they did not help,etc. She talked about how in contrast to the nieces, her daughter was attentive to the granddad-would go have tea with him,watch movies with him,etc. Is daughter still visiting with grandfather? Seems like it might be helpful to focus on some of the more positive qualities the daughter has exhibited. It would be very interesting to hear the daughter’s take on all of this.</p>
<p>Like MomofWildChild I also am not convinced the D is not using drugs. Unfortunately I have witnessed several young women with behavior eerily similiar to the OP’s D. In all the cases the person getting the majority of the abuse has been the mother. In 3 of the 4 cases I am most familiar with the abuse of the Mom decreased once the problem was out in the open.</p>
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<p>I think that would be helpful. For example, it was responsible of D to get a new job within a day of her previous employer closing down. It was responsible to be earning a 3.7 in her major at her LAC, as pointed out by soozievt. I agree that there would be value in recognizing, drawing attention to what D does well or has done well–ideally, right at the time that she does it.</p>
<p>I thought the mom said D was drug tested?</p>
<p>soozievt… i tend to agree with you… seems to be some mixed and changing messages over time (ie bf as son in law, now not welcome etc) but as one that has a child that can be a trial… it is easy sometimes to lose sight of the positive and focus on only the negative things… in trying so hard to correct the behaviors and not tolerate them, things can be set off for the smallest infraction… i know sometimes i over react ( working on it) and son is so sure that i will criticize he starts the fight as if i already have. he started a fight about his latest grades BEFORE i said one word. (brought his report cards with the words…“so i suppose now i’m grounded… i’m not as smart as my brothers and you think its all my fault” Another example…he had 30 at mid-term… i told him if he really really worked hard he could bring the grade up…he got to 68 but of course still failed. when he told me the grade i said" see, i told you you could bring it up" He honestly didnt hear that, he heard you failed… it took hours of arguing until he realized what i had actually said. ( in context this is a 15 year old… having failed grade 9 courses twice now… not a kid that is passing with a great major gpa like the OP’s D))
ok, so they dont want her to smoke…ask her not to smoke in front of them…but sorry i would let that one go for now. she could be doing alot worse.</p>
<p>Parent56, sorry for all the trials and tribulations you are going through with your son. It is really hard to be a parent during such trying situations! One thing, however…your son is 15 (doesn’t make it easier, I know) but m-3’s D is 20 and I really think the parents should not be overseeing such details except her final semester grades and credits. Right now, they know if she studied the night before the test or saw BF the weekend before papers were due, etc. Those are things to monitor with a teenager but in college, kids are on their own more and the main thing is that they get decent grades and earn the credits and the parents are not typically as involved in the nitty gritty. If momma-three’s D were failing courses, she’d have a more legitimate beef about the academic piece but that is not the case here. For this D, on the academic front, it may be enough that she earns the degree in four years. She is not a real academic type kid. I think some of the fuss over how much she studies or learns is not the big issue with this kid. </p>
<p>I agree with ADad that when the D secured a new job within one day of the old one, that was pretty responsible and positive! Not sure the nature of her jobs but again, D does some things where she functions OK. Her acting out and behavior with the parents is the big one that sticks out to me in all the anecdotes. But if the D lived independently, the parents would not even be having such frequent interactions with her.</p>
<p>m-3, I’m wondering, since I read in a post of yours the summer after your D was brought home from her university (that would be 1 1/2 years ago), and she was being intolerable around the house, you told her she had to go stay with her grandparents nearby (but I don’t know if you ever followed through on that). However, since your husband seems afraid for some reason for your D to live in a dorm or apartment (plus you don’t want to pay for it), is it possible for her to live with her grandparents this semester? Maybe your husband could live with that. It keeps her from daily contact with you guys in the home but is a “safe” place.</p>
<p>I wonder when m-3 will be returning to this thread and read all the current hypotheses and suggestions…</p>
<p>Soozie…Pretty much correct other than a few things. When we initially told our daughter that we were bringing her home she was devastated. Her GPA was not exactly as mentioned and if I can recall correctly she dropped a failing class with a W, earned a D in another course and the only part of her GPA that was acceptable was the major GPA which only had two classes I believe…again I am only recalling. When she was going through the leave of absence process she learned that the college would not allow her to continue in her major area without bringing the core up. In effect she would have needed an additional year at the school due to the sequence of courses. Therefore we learned that her freshman year automatically meant another year (5th year at the school.) Daughter did not receive any merit money at this school and we had taken a HELOC for her to attend. We had 3 others in school at the time. </p>
<p>By mid year she was deeply involved in the whole party scene and she seemed distressed all the time. By Christmas she was home relaxing seemed O.K but we sensed something was wrong. She went back to school and days later broke up with the same boyfriend that she was claiming undieing love for all break. The boyfriend was devastated and spent the next year and a half trying to remain on the perimeter of her life. My daughter wanted nothing to do with him and the aggression grew. By end of Jan we had talked to her on the phone and she sounded bizarre…long and short of it we drove to school and took her straight to the emergency room. It was at this time when I sensed that something had occured because she just snapped. She was out of control and I feared that she would be diagnosed with some sort of mental break.
In the meantime we had learned that her friendships were deteriorating and she was now “acting bizarre” according to a friend of hers that she had met prior to attending the school. Her oldest brother who kept the communication going, had also sensed that something was wrong, and paid her a visit without our knowledge. He called to tell us that something was not right and we needed to “get her out of there.” Two weeks later our two other sons went to see her and called to tell us that she was sad, lonely and depressed and she was involved in some over the top behavior. This was all around the period of time that she had just dumped her long term boyfriend over the phone and told us that she “did not want to feel married.” Nothing made sence and we were unable to even speak to her on the phone…she screened calls and basically disappeared from the family. When we finally got her at the school and brought her to the hospital she was drug tested for every drug. She had just turned 18 at the time, and the hospital would not release the information to us. The only thing the doctor said was that they did not see anything unusual in the drug testing. She was diagnosed with anxiety and released to start therapy with someone near her campus. She went to a few sessions and refused to continue saying it was a waste of time. The second semester was now in session and she already blew off her winter class which put her in a slump for the following semester. Fast forward: When we took her home she was practically kicking and screaming. She knew that a fifth year was not part of our agreement but she never believed that we would not permit her to continue. We did tell her that if the grades were preventing her from graduating in four years than we would expect her to come home and continue at a state school. However once home she enrolled in summer classes at the CC and seemed to really enjoy her classes although she was not the same kid. The trouble was escalating and we assumed much had to do with transitioning back to being at home. She was already in therapy and seeing a doctor. Than another doctor and another therapist. Both had confirmed that she was depressed with suicidal behavior. She saw the therapist two times a week for about three months before she went down to once a week. The meds were working and she was evening out. I really thought she was doing O.K and than her old boyfriend started to put increasing pressure on her to see him. He made some trips home and would always “bump” into her. By this time she was dating a couple other boys but her choices were out of her normal realm of people she would have associated with. She than told her ex to stay out of her life and that she never wanted to see him. Than all of a sudden come May after a breakup with someone she was physically attracted to had broke it off with her, she decided to start seeing the old boyfriend again. It was fast, not thought out and just plain erratic. The next thing we knew she was acting like she could do anything she wanted…no calls home, came in when she wanted, stayed out for days with no call. We never knew what or where she was and I was getting no sleep. Than she pushed the button by blowing off the end of hers semester and moved in with her boyfriends family for the summer. The whole thing was erractic and weird. </p>
<p>Since she went back together with him it has become obvious that he no longer is the same person he once was. He makes her feel inadequate and rules the roost so to speak. He calls all the shots and is very controlling. She learned about his partying in the city with his friends and he lives with a couple of girls. He is very attached to these girls and referrs to them as his best and closest friends. Daughter has seen facebook pictures which are very inappropriate so obviously this boy has been fooling around. My daughter sees it but does not want to really believe it is going on because he tells her it isn’t. The reason I do not welcome him into my home anymore is because I do not want him to think we accept his treatment of my daughter. He blatently puts this in her face and than denies it. </p>
<p>He was at our home one day and told us he no longer felt stimulated by our daughter. I wanted to throw his *%& out of the house but my husband somehow communicated with our unspoken language letting me know to just let him keep talking so he would bury himself. He did, and still my daughter made excuses for him that he did’nt mean it like that. We both heard it and he was clear, yet my daughter remains in this relationship where he is walking all over her. My sons have severed all ties with him and find him to be obnoxious and controlling with my daughter. He tells her how to dress and what he wants her to wear when he is out with her. I no longer mention his name because if I said anything about him she became enraged. It has been months since I even bring his name up.</p>
<p>When they got back together this past May I was initially happy for the reunion. My daughter seemed geniounly happy to be back with him. After they spent the summer together at his house I saw him several times once she came back home. He knew nothing about the depression when they got back together or anything that had occured when she was away at school. Yet he seemed to enjoy that she was vulnerable and he just took over telling her how she needed to be out on her own. That was when it all escalated. From May to now things have been out of control with no respite in sight. </p>
<p>Regarding daughters grandfather: My daughter does not visit with her grandfather any more…she says she is too busy. I would not encourage her to move in with my dad because he too can be difficult. I also don’t think any good could come from that arrangement. To answer your question…I still see my dad everyday and he needs increasing care. My brother is a saint (according to dad) but at his age I have accepted that he is selfish and unchangable. He will not be with us for long so I accept that my father is who he is (on the spectrum). But to anwaer your question regarding the possibility that my daughter stay with him…she would never want that and neither would I. Its just not realistic.</p>
<p>I have probably left out some important info but I can say that we did agree after she worked hard at the CC that first summer and first semester that we would send her back to her LAC. The readmission paperwork was sitting and all she had to do was sign it. Two days before the deadline she said she never wanted to go back. She told us it was not a good place for her. We never expected that.She found success at the CC and had met friends, was in therapy and even tempered for the most part. We had very few concerns until this past May.</p>
<p>M3, how much of her problems seem to stem from attending a 4 year school? As I recall, she has an Associates Degree already. It seems she has problems with being at 4-year schools. Would it help for her to get a break from the stress of academics and be a working adult? In some ways, it seems she is playing the role that children in your family should. Go to school, get a 4 year degree in something amazing, and be successful. I suspect your D can be successful but in a different way than your sons. </p>
<p>Either way, she should be allowed independence to help her grow. Soozievt is right, the battles are very high school. Remember, your successful S’s didn’t live at home during their adult years. I hope you can convince H to give her another chance. Unfortunately, your D is stuck at the age of 16.</p>
<p>momma-three…wow. So much of your daughter’s story and behavior sounds similar to my daughter’s. Do you have any indication that perhaps your daughter has an eating disorder? The lack of communication with parents by health professionals and schools when a kid reaches 18 is very frustrating. There are things you need to know to help you know how to react. There is a big difference between a kid who is acting out because they are a jerk and a kid who is trying to see if you are going to stand by them or cut and run. Our daughter was pushing our buttons to see if we would abandon her. Knowing that she had been raped and had an eating disorder allowed us to react with compassion instead of tossing her out. Fortunately, our daughter was willing to allow us in through her therapy and we learned how to communicate better. Had she not, I don’t know where we’d be today.</p>
<p>Dear Momma-three,</p>
<p>I, too have been lurking and thank you for your honest and open post #851 because it answers many questions I had. My heart goes out to you and your family. Severe mental illness does hit some kids in college; it happened to my cousin. Her behavior became bizarre; her thinking process faultered; her grades plumetted and she was unable to finish her degree despite being in her senior year. It was her sister who visited and reported that something was very truly wrong. This was forty years ago, though, and both therapy and medicines are much much better now.</p>
<p>I think your daughter’s native goodness and intelligence may have shined through when she made the difficult decision not to sign the papers allowing her to go back to her LAC. It sounds like that may be the place where she had her break. My cousin still to this day wishes she had not gone to her college - somehow she believes she may not have encountered whatever it was that made her ill. And who knows; it may be true; we don’t know the cause of these illnesses.</p>
<p>I think it is wonderful she is finding success at her CC and jobs. This is great! And I am so sorry she is obnoxious to you, and know how it hurts the heart to have obnoxiousnesss in the household, but she is probably very angry and frightened within herself and who else do we act out with when we feel bad inside but with mommy? And I know you are going through this times 100 and I am so sorry.</p>
<p>It has also been true in our family that when someone’s mind goes off kilter (it has happened with our elders and with elders’ partners) that as the people living with the person whose mind is off see the odd behavior they get very angry - VERY angry - because it feels like the person is doing it on purpose. However with time, understanding and therapy, the realization comes that they are ill and so some of the anger and fear begins to soften…</p>
<p>I think your daughter may be making some smart decisions within her situation. Not the texting while driving or the controlling boyfriend, but the deciding not to go back to the LAC and staying fairly close to home part. </p>
<p>It is also the case that folks on med’s tend to stop the med’s when they feel better, and then they tumble again. A cycle sets up. Not to mention that getting on the best med’s can be a journey in and of itself.</p>
<p>Thank you again for sharing so openly your difficult journey. Prayers for you and all four kids and hubby.</p>
<p>I don’t see the D moving out as “tossing her out.” I see it as part of her growth to move from living in a very high school-ish type situation to a more independent young adult college kid situation. I think the change would be good for her and should be seen in that light and not as “tossing her out.” She came home for 1 1/2 years and while she is not returning to her out of state university, she can attend her local state U where she currently is enrolled and transition into campus or apartment life. I simply do not view this as giving up on her or punitive but saying she is ready to now move in this direction because keeping her at home is having her stuck at age 16 arguing with her parents daily and having them oversee every facet of her life. I see no down sides to her living in a dorm or apartment nearby at this time. It is not as if keeping her at home is keeping her from certain behaviors or staying out at night, etc. etc. </p>
<p>I’m sorry for all these challenges with your D, momma-three. I was saying to you yesterday that if your husband will not get on board with taking some new and different actions/approaches/plans, that at least maybe you can enact some and while he may not agree, hopefully he will not stand in your way or align with the D or contradict you. I see this situation as part of the problem and perhaps talking to a neutral third party to hash out a plan with D and with your husband would really help here. I notice you say when you were worried about her behavior freshmen year, you took her to an ER. Right now, you are in a troubling situation handling the D, perhaps you and hubby and talk to a counselor to devise new strategies.</p>
<p>M-3 I hope today is better. I think you are stuck in a hard place. Sure, your D may say she wants to live on her own, but she really doesn’t want the responsiblity. And as long as SHE sees it as being thrown out (regardless of how you or any poster here sees it as moving forward as a young adult), your DH seems reluctant to make it happen. The leaves you stuck in the middle. A counselor might help. Checking into alternatives for your business through friends or Craigslist might help. Our public library has rooms you can reserve, can you meet clients there for a week or two (maybe a plumbing emergancy at home)? Do what you can to impliment your changes while everyone gets on the same page. No taxi service, no tantrum audience. I’m thinking of you, hoping today is a good day.</p>
<p>M-3, I’ve been thinking about you and your situation all day - hoping things are better for you, even if only that you have peace today. I know that you are concerned about the big picture - moving your daughter out, somehow getting back to a good relationship with her - but even just a day without a blowup can feel like a gift in a situation like this.</p>
<p>It seems like some posters are frustrated by the lack of progress but I believe that you would have taken some of the steps they suggest IF YOU COULD. The fact that your husband is not on board limits what you can do but I hope you can look at your options and, as some have advised, do what YOU can. I know you started down that path last week - just keep looking for steps you can take. I like the idea that M2M had about reserving a room at the library for a client meeting. That might not work for you but it’s that type of thing I’m speaking of.</p>
<p>I can’t really tell whether you are seeing a therapist regularly; I know there is one in the picture. I definitely think this is something you need to do for yourself. Go with your husband if he will go but, even if he won’t, you should go. We are all strangers, trying to give advice based on our limited knowledge of your situation - you NEED to talk to someone who is trained to deal with situations like this and then you need to open up to them about what is going on and try to identify steps you can take.</p>
<p>Hang in there. I’m thinking of you and praying for peace in your home.</p>
<p>M3…Have you tried to rule out any type of major trauma that may have happened? When I read post #851, it seems like she was just plugging along and then a switch flipped so to speak. I hate to even bring this up, but could she have been raped? Could she have experienced a pregnancy and then chosen abortion? Both would have been horrible traumas which would certainly be a huge source of anger in her. I guess I just see that she is so very, very angry at you. And in my opinion, when adult children are angry at their parents, it is because they feel we have somehow failed to protect them. Not that you would in any sense of the world been responsible for either, but I could see how an adult female child could behave this way if she were dealing with one of those two issues. It just seem really red flaggy to me. I can’t put my finger on it, but I thought I would throw it out there to see if you had the same type of feeling. And if something like that did happen, (I have worked with rape victims before) I see that sometimes, they do not want anyone to know because they feel dirty, or ashamed. And because of the deep secret, anger weeps from them at all times. Uncontrollable, violent anger.</p>
<p>GT…I agree that she should take a break from school and have suggested that many times. I do not believe it is the right path for her at this time because all though she is getting the grades the education is not of any value to her in that she is not preparing for the reality of certification in her field. I was hoping that she would realize this after this semester but instead she has dug her heals in and says “I must finish.” She feels that she is too close to graduating not to complete what she set out to accomplish. I hold my reservations about the career she is planning to enter because I can actually see her in a more entreprenurial type of position where she can work the hours she desires, as many as she wants to grow a business. She loves to work and has never been afraid of long hours. She enjoys making money and saving it and has proved to be very responsible in the job setting. She however has no clue what she would do other than the present career path she is on. </p>
<p>Another poster mentioned that she is in CC. She actually graduated this past summer with her AA degree taking alot of credits to make up for the ones that did not transfer from her prior college. She attended the CC from the summer she got home all through the year including the winter and summer sessions. She earned , I believe 54 credits in one year. She than transferred to our state school. I felt it was a huge accomplishment given her recent diagnosis of depression but she was at home and appeared to be doing so well emotionally. There were some blips but nothing that could not be tolerated. She was a bit lonely the first semester because she did not meet too many people thinking that she would be going back to her old school. Once she made the decision to stay and finish her AA she had a calm come over her and she started to meet people. She had also been dating. Than the boyfriend came back into the picture gradually…first via phone calls and texts…than visits home throughout the semester. This is when things became out of control. I guess I am associating some of her behavior with the fact that he is doing something to bring it out. In fact I am certain that it is him but for some reason she will not tell him to take a hike. She knew at one time that I liked him very much so possibly that is why she is still with him. As I said she loves me and she hates me…but she very much respects my opinions even if she is impossible. I don’t know…does that even make sense to anyone? </p>
<p>I would ultimately like for my daughter to make her own decision because I don’t want to control anything in her life…she is getting enough of that with this guy. I have offered to send her to a study abroad far far away with the idea that time away from him would get her thinking about his nature. She was horrified and thought I wanted to send her away to get rid of her…so not true…I would love to see him out of the picture. When he came in this past end of the semester during her finals we (husband and I) were convinced that on some level he wants to see her fail so he could be her superior. I can’t stand him!!! On another post I mentioned that I had finally confronted him when he came to our door probably the third time right before her finals. I asked him if he really needed to do this with my daughter so busy with school, jobs, and field experience. This boy does not work nearly as hard as my daughter with all the different things that she does. Since than we have not spoken two words and as far as I am concerned he does not have my daughters best interests in mind…only his own selfish interests.</p>
<p>This was the same boyfriend that I once believed would make a wonderful partner for my daughter. Once that breakup occured he began living with a group of people and the house is shared by woman as well as a couple of guys. It is obvious that he is involved with one of these girls based on his behavior regarding the pictures that my daughter saw. He has never had my daughter come to his house on the weekends unless this girl and the other girls are gone for the weekend. He is a snake. I still can’t understand why he wanted her back if he was only going to cheat.</p>
<p>M-3, I would suggest you check out [NAMI:</a> National Alliance on Mental Illness - Mental Health Support, Education and Advocacy](<a href=“http://www.nami.org%5DNAMI:”>http://www.nami.org). There are support groups, programs, etc. If there is a support group in your area, you might really benefit. There are also good resources on that site.</p>