Daughter just threw in the towel

soozievt · January 17, 2011, 2:18pm

I do recall in the recent past that you really do not like the BF any longer and blame him for a lot of this stuff. I think that sort of gets in the way a bit here. Your D is responsible for her own behaviors. Also, you have made it clear that you don’t like her BF and that likely also causes wedge in your relationship with your D. When the BF came home to visit her the weekend before finals, I know you were irritated with him for visiting when D should be studying, but really it was your D’s choice whether to socialize that weekend or not. Also, if she were living at college like many her age, you would know know each time your D and BF got together. Less source of aggravation for you and really it is her own life at this age in this area. Your D tends to rebel against you a lot (very teenage behavior) and knowing that you dislike her BF so much only keeps her with him more. I don’t know that you can change this now but my feeling is to stay neutral about boyfriends at this fairly young age.

As far as school, I know your D is not the studious type and that is disappointing that she doesn’t make the most of college. But that just is who she is. She wants to get the degree and has that goal and is managing to pass and get respectable grades. Pulling the plug from school, I think, would cause a larger wedge in your mother/daughter relationship. You’d have a point if she were failing to earn credits but she is managing to earn the credits. Pulling her from school when she is passing seems too punitive to me.

I think the main issue is your D’s behavior and relationship with her parents and immaturity in some areas and her own issues of self worth and anger, etc. Hopefully she gets back on track in seeing her therapist and that you also get some professional advice given how stressful it all is. Nobody in the family can be happy with the status quo. I imagine your husband doesn’t like all this conflict and I am curious as to what changes he would like to see made. Try to make some of your own with or without him but see if you guys can come to some compromise strategies to implement.

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 2:27pm

I am a first time poster to this thread, but have been following it from the beginning. You have gotten great advice from many posters, but I would like to say that I think the best advice has been from soozievt.

As to my own take – what strikes me the most about your current situation is that no one – not you, not your H, and not your D – is on the same page. I know this has been said by other posters, but I think that it would be very, very helpful if you could have a few sessions of family therapy to get everyone working together a bit more. Ideally, that would include you, your H, and your D. Might your daughter’s therapist be willing to have a few such sessions? I realize that both your daughter and her therapist would have to be on board, but I think it’s worth trying to set up. (One of my S’s is in therapy, and his therapist has actually suggested this.)

I think family therapy with your D’s therapist might help particularly with your H’s fears about D being on her own. I gather from your posts (although I am not 100% clear on this) that your D was suicidal at one point. A child’s suicide is of course every parent’s worst nightmare, so it’s understandable that your H is fearful of letting D out of his sight, even if the threat is in the past. But I’m thinking D’s therapist might be able to reassure your H that D is safe being on her own, as long as she continues therapy and has other supports in place.

As to whether you should pay for D’s education and otherwise help her out financially – I realize that is a point that posters disagree on strongly here. I personally agree with the posters that think you should continue to finance her education, as long as she is getting acceptable grades. I realize, though, that this is a very personal decision, and I can understand your not being willing to do this, especially while she continues to be disrespectful to you.

Maybe an acceptable compromise would be to leave open the possibility that you will again finance her education once she starts being respectful. (I am not clear, actually, if that is your position at this point, so if it is, sorry for missing that!) I actually think that if your D moves out, with proper supports in place, she might start being her old, (more or less) pleasant self again before the next tuition bill is due. I think the biggest problem is that you are pushing each other buttons, which is inevitable when you live under the same roof. Once she has moved out, though, I think there is a big chance that your relationship will improve a great deal.

A practical comment: it seems strange to me that a tuition reimbursement check would not go to you, if you are the one who paid the tuition in the first place. I know my S’s school will refund to the student as a default, but will refund to the parent upon request. Have you checked with enough people at D’s college to be sure about their refund policy?

Finally, I want to add that I was a huge pain to my parents at your D’s age! This was long ago, at the height of the Vietnam War protests, and as I recall, our arguments were mostly political. These were not calm and polite discussions, though; I was REALLY obnoxious. My parents finally refused to send me back to college for my sophomore year, saying that they would not finance my education until I shared their values.

My mom made this annoucement just as I was getting into a van with my brother and some friends to head up to Woodstock. (Literally; I was in the driveway, about to climb into the van.) I was not in the least bit fazed, and didn’t really care about not going back to college at that point; I just said “okay, bye!” and headed off. I feel bad about that looking back; I actually didn’t intend to be mean, but I realize now, from a parent’s perspective, that my not caring about what must have been such a difficult decision for them must have really hurt them.

When I returned home after the weekend, the plan we all agreed on was that I would get a job and move in with my brother and sister-in-law, who needed to rent a new (and bigger) apartment anyway, as their second child was on the way. My renting with them allowed them to get a slightly nicer apartment.

After my parents had notified my college that I would not be returning for my sophomore year (I found out later that they arranged a year-long leave of absence, so that my bridges weren’t burned) but before my brother and SIL had rented an apartment, I realized what a jerk I had been and made up with my parents. I couldn’t say that I totally shared their values – I still opposed the war! – but I made it clear that I loved them and was sorry I had been such a rude (to say the least) child. I still got a job and moved out, mostly because my brother and SIL were relying on me at that point to help with rent. But I got along well with my parents all that year, and kept in touch and visited. They agreed to send me back to college after that year. We got along well after that, really, for the rest of their lives. But let me empathize that for months and months before that, I was pretty insufferable.

So all in all, that year on my own (well, sort of on my own; living with my brother and SIL was a big help for me) was a real success as far as helping me grow up and improving my relationship with my parents. As an added bonus, when I returned to college, I appreciated it so much more than I had before, after having done the 9-to-5 grind!

I guess the point of my telling my story is to provide some anecdotal evidence that being “kicked out” can be a beneficial experience. BUT, I was not having any psychological or emotional problems at that time, and was not at all at risk for suicide or anything similar. I think if my own kids were having psychological problems that required that they be in therapy, I would be very hesitant to insist that they be on their own (even for just a year, as I was, and even if they were being as obnoxious as I was at that age), unless I had reassureance from their therapist that this would not put them at risk.

Sorry for the very long post, but in short, I think family therapy, preferably with you, H, and D, would be very helpful. I also want to emphasize that a young person that age can be VERY obnoxious (trust me, I really was), and still end up having a wonderful relationship with her parents once she gets past that very trying stage. I have a feeling that your D will eventually emerge from this as a fine young woman, and this will all be just a bad memory.

soozievt · January 17, 2011, 2:34pm

This statement gives me pause, I must admit. If you wanted to send D abroad to take a gap in her schooling or some other reason like that, I could see it. But you are saying the idea was to get her away from the BF and even told her so. I can’t imagine doing this myself. One of my D’s has a BF and has consistently had long term boyfriends throughout high school, college, and beyond. I have had very very very little involvement in her relationships. In high school, I obviously would have more contact with a BF. But in college and beyond (D is 22 and has been out of college for 1.5 years), I am aware of the BF, have met him when I have been in town, and D shares once in a while about things they have done together (though this is a minor topic that arises in our conversations and is not the center of her world either), I know very little. If she shares something about him, we chat about it. But otherwise, I don’t know that much of the relationship and am not involved and have a very very neutral stance. She’s an adult. Admittedly, the BF seems very nice to me, but it just is not an area I get involved in. I’ll be honest here in opining that your involvement in your D’s relationship with her BF and your open dislike for BF and even strategizing to get D away from BF is counterproductive and in many ways, not appropriate for her age. It is likely yet another source of conflict between you and D. I am sorry if this input is not sounding supportive, but since you are posting and venting, it invites input and I offer it in a friendly manner.

One suggestion I have is to not focus on the BF and not on her studies and JUST address the biggest problem…her behaviors with you. I think the rest is far less important and as an outside observer, seem far less concerning. Maybe if you keep the focus on limits and consequences for behaviors in D’s interactions with you, it will simplify things as the rest is rather secondary.

soozievt · January 17, 2011, 2:41pm

m-3, I don’t know if you are willing to answer this and you do not have to, but have you asked husband to go with you to meet with the therapist to gain some insights on how to deal with your D? I do think it would be helpful to even go alone but since you are not on the same page with him, it might be good to have some sessions with a professional who is neutral. Is he willing to go in with you?

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 2:52pm

I have to say that I agree completely with soozievt about D’s BF and your voicing your views about that relationship to your D. As hard as it may be, I think you need to acknowledge that it is just none of your business, and never bring it up.

This is another area where I think family therapy might be helpful. I could be wrong, but I think a therapist would agree that you need to stay out of your D’s love life, as difficult as that might be.

I know that what I’m about to say likely won’t be perceived as at all supportive, and also that as just another reader of your threads, I can’t really know if this is true. BUT, I have the impression that your involvement in the issue of your D’s BF is a HUGE source of the problems between you and your D. (I base this view mostly on previous threads of yours, but I’m sorry that I can’t find the threads at the moment.) I wonder if it wasn’t the initial source of her recent hostility to you. I am not excusing her rudeness, but just saying, I think this BF issue really needs to be hers and hers alone to deal with.

On a practical level, too, I think your commenting on D’s BF is bound to backfire. I suspected my mom did not approve of some of my boyfriends, but she never said anything. Years later, when I asked her about this, she said that she was purposefully practicing reverse psychology. She figured that if she criticized my BF, it would just drive us closer together. She chose to wait until I saw the light. It was not easy for her, but I think it was the best strategy!

guitarist_s_mom · January 17, 2011, 2:54pm

I hope that given the additional information M-3 has provided, some of the posters here can better understand her timeframe and methodology for getting her husband on board for the bigger picture plan as well as the step-by-step process. It seems pretty clear that H is quite concerned about D’s mental health, understandably so given the near crisis series of events at the LAC. I agree that it would be a great idea to get H into some of the therapy sessions.

I have seen and experienced some really shocking changes in young women during and after their relationships with boys/men. The most confident girls, and even especially those who are stunningly beautiful, might for one reason or another tend to put too much weight on their looks and/or their attention from men to boost their self-worth; and the confidence either quickly or over time deteriorates when things don’t go as planned. There could be many, many things that have gone on between M-3’s D and her boyfriend, and D and other college boys, that have contributed to do a real number on her mental well-being. I am hopeful that D’s therapist is able to explore that area and maybe get her back on track so she is a self-assured, successful young woman on her own, and not dependent on men in her life.

soozievt · January 17, 2011, 3:05pm

How do you know your daughter’s BF is cheating on her? Nothing you have mentioned here indicates that to me at all. Guess what? My D has an apartment for four people, two guys, two girls. Her BF doesn’t live with her (he also lives with a guy and a girl). Further, my D is very very close to several male friends. She recently saw a movie with one male friend and a Broadway show with another. This is not a problem for her BF because they both have friends of the opposite sex. The guys my D went places with date other girls. She has been friends with these guys for years. She is even still very good friends with a former boyfriend come to think of it. If her boyfriend saw photos of her with these young men or knew she went to the movies, it would not be a problem because she is totally monogamous with her BF and simply has close male pals. Her BF has close female pals too. Everyone knows that my D and her BF are a “couple.” The fact that your D’s BF lives with girls, has been photographed with girls, etc. proves nothing. For my D and her BF, that is all in the realm of normalcy.

soozievt · January 17, 2011, 3:09pm

guitarist’smom…you could be onto something…the D could be with this BF because it makes her feel good about herself when she likely feels very low self esteem otherwise and likes that he gives her attention and some other relationships in her life are not going well. She may be very dependent on him.

That contrasts to my own D who enjoys very much having a BF but she is not dependent on the BF and he is not the center of her life. Her own goals are front and center. She is not dependent on the BF for self worth.

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 3:15pm

I don’t know, of course, what his behavior was regarding the pictures, but I assume it was negative. I don’t know why you assume that means he was cheating, though. If your daughter confronted him about the photos, could his negative reaction been based on his dismay that she mistrusted him?

In any case, I still think this is something that a parent of a young adult should not be involved in. This is between your D and her BF, and she needs to work it out on her own. (Of course, she doesn’t have to be totally on her own; she has a therapist and I assume girlfriends to talk to about her BF. In my view, though, her mom should not be involved, unless D wants her to be.)

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 3:21pm

And this could be explained by his being aware of, and sensitive to, your D’s discomfort about these girls. Or even that there is just more room for guests when not everyone is home.

Of course, I have no clue. The point is, I don’t think you do either, really – although I realize you may have more evidence than you’ve presented here. In any case – sorry for the repetition on this point! – I think that your getting involved with D’s BF situation is a big mistake.

martina99 · January 17, 2011, 3:38pm

Re the boyfriend’s cheating - I have found from long hard experience that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Sure, there may be some innocent explanation, but it’s likely to be what is obvious to M3.

mousegray · January 17, 2011, 3:51pm

The more I read this thread, the more I feel myself identifying with your daughter. I think I must have been very much like her, and I caused my mother plenty of grief. We are still not close today, but that’s another story. It’s sad because it didn’t have to be this way. I did eventually grow up but my mother never really changed.

In retrospect, I realize that I was completely lost. I hated being at home, but I was nowhere ready to be on my own (I only recognized this as an older adult – at the time, I thought I just wanted to get the hell out). My mother reacted by alternating between being very controlling and completely hands-off. The message I was getting loud and clear was that her love was conditional. I felt abandoned and reacted by rejecting her as forcefully as I could (behavior very much like your D’s tantrums), but that was just a plea for her love and attention. Of course, it didn’t work. But how could my mother know that this D who behaved as if she hated her just needed more love than she could provide?

I’m sorry, I don’t have any answers. I did get very lucky in that I met my future H who gave me the kind of support I needed. Like your D, I squandered my college experience through too much partying. Even then, again like your D, I didn’t let the academics completely fall apart. I knew that I would be OK, eventually. I just could not grow up gracefully — I had to trash the nest before I could leave it.

I think it was mostly about family dynamics, especially between my mother and me. It was sort of a perfect storm of circumstances and temperaments: my mother and I were both equally willful and rebellious and she spent too much energy trying to squash me, she favored my brother (sound familiar?), and my father was a passive figure in the family (mom called the shots).

You sound like a thoughtful, intelligent person. So is my mother. Here is what I hear in your posts: that you love your D very much, and you have three perfect, saintly sons. You hold your sons as the standard and your D falls short. (And no therapist worth their salt would buy your explanation of your screenname. I don’t, and neither would your D.) I hear a lot of justifications about what you have had to do regarding your D that you wholeheartedly believe. I certainly don’t question your sincerity. I understand that your sons successes represent to you that the problem lies with your D and not your mothering. We all want that kind of reassurance. But I suggest it’s not one or the other.

I’m sorry that I’m being harsh. I realize that there may be things going on with your D, such as mental illness or drug use, that are complicating an already complicated family dynamic. (I also had depression and drug use, btw.) I agree with you and the other posters that she should probably move out. BUT, realize that much of her behavior towards you (and even her dependence on an abusive, controlling BF) is coming from a child who desperately wants to grow up but is stuck. Whatever you end up doing, keep assuring her that you love her and you will always be there for her. Even as you stand your ground and refuse to let her walk all over you. It’s an almost impossible task, I know. Be patient. It WILL get better.

momma-three · January 17, 2011, 4:01pm

I can’t say I am not sick of the posters referring to my sons as the “saintly ones” or “perfect”. I love all of my kids just the same and up until my daughter went away I had a very good relationship with her. You don’t buy into the momma-three name…than please stop posting because what you are implying is outrageous.

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 4:14pm

What I hear mousegray saying, in short, is that problems within a family are not always caused solely by the family member who appears to be the most difficult – in your case, your D. Rather, they are caused by the family dynamics – the way the family members interact. Which is why I wish you would consider family therapy, if it is at all possible.

roshke · January 17, 2011, 4:19pm

Momma3,

Hope you are having a better day.

All through this thread I have often wondered about your D’s care under her current doctors, considering her history and what is going on now. I think all we really know is that she missed a number of appointments with the therapist recently. Other than this, is she still on meds for attention and/or her depression or other issues? Is she compliant? I have seen references to her therapist and yours therapists, but not clear at all on how regularly she sees the psychiatrist at this point. Do you like and trust her current doctors? Has her therapist or yours suggested family counseling as has been suggested ? If not, is there a reason?

I think I recall (not sure if it was in this thread) you saying that you were not big on the whole medication thing and finally agreed to treat your D with meds for her ADHD, but not until pretty late in her HS career. Just wondering if reluctance to take or continue taking medication (your or your D’s)is possibly playing any role ? I know from friends who have been through various issues with their kids, one or two unfortunately as severe as yours with your D, that medications occasionally work immediately, but can sometimes take months and many trials of medication, dosage adjustments, etc. to fine tune.

Another thought - a lot of the suggestions here are wonderful, but most are expensive. Therapy, doctors, medications, family counseling, couples counseling, move her and pay for dorm, room and board away from home etc. Some may be covered by insurance, but probably not most . With all these kids in college at once, and finances being tight, I would not be surprised if this weighs heavily on M3s mind and her H’s as well.

Lots of other good advice here as well though, and for no cost at all. I agree that the BF and how she studies should be non issues at this point (and that she should move out and try to live on her own ASAP). With as bright as you say your D is, M3, how do you know she won’t be able to cram for and pass those certification tests, especially since she seems to be doing well in the classes and exams?

eddieodessa · January 17, 2011, 4:22pm

M3 - How is your day going? All quiet on the western front? I hope it’s peaceful around your home.

I also think that something just must have happened to her that she is not telling you about. Maybe she’s not ready…A rape, an unplanned pregnancy, I have even thought of some sort of brain injury. A sickness of some sort…Just can’t understand such a drastic change from the daughter you knew a short time ago.

switters · January 17, 2011, 4:29pm

Hello- Ihavent posted on this thread, and this may be a stupid solution, but I wanted to say that I really feel for your family.

Would it be possible for you to simply sit down with your daughter and make this about you, and not her? So for instance say: Dad and I love you, and we want you to be safe. I would like you to continue to live here, but what is stopping me is your abusive behavior. I cant be sworn at, or taken for granted. It makes it hard for me to think straight.

I know this sounds simple minded, and Im not expressing it well, but in many ways she sounds like a good kid. You have mentioned over and over again how much she likes to work. That is admirable. She sounds like someone who, even if they didnt have mental health problems, has too much on her plate.

momma-three · January 17, 2011, 4:35pm

eddie…each of the very things you have mentioned have crossed my mind a million times. If something has happened she is not ready to tell us. I have often wondered if she was assaulted or raped because her anger was never an issue before she went away.

Sodium…The implication of that post #872 was disgusting. I don’t even understand how people think that way. If there was any truth in that I would have run to therapy long before my daughter ever needed to go. If I sound like a nut than I will sign off this forum for good. I have explained that patiently several times before when Jym questioned it and a couple others. This poster did not question it she clearly stated that she did not believe me. She implied that I only consider my sons worthy of being my children…sick…sick…sick. Some people must know some really sick people to have a mind like that. Understand that I will never explain my screen name again…just go back and read why I chose it.

momma-three · January 17, 2011, 4:45pm

switters…It is actually a kind and loving way to approach it…We have tried it. My daughter knows she is loved very much and she has said it often when things are going well. If my daughter did not have these issues she would be a great kid. I get that school is not her priority but I also get that there are worse things than this.

The poster who mentioned that finances might be a concern…you are also correct. We jsy received our last Cornell bills…hooray!!!..but our business has taken a downturn. It is stressful when money is being carefully watched but bills need to get paid. My daughter just cancelled another therapy appointment for tomorrow and because it was in the 24 hour time period we must pay that one too. Yes, I am financially spread too thin right now but if there was anything that would change this situation I would spend the the money…missing therapy and paying is throwing money away.

SodiumFree · January 17, 2011, 4:48pm

Momma-three, for what it’s worth, I have read your explanation (something about the screen name momma-four already being taken in another message board, right?), and it never occurred to me to question that. On the other hand, I think mousegray’s post has helpful observations and advice.

I have a suggestion, if you can bear to do it: re-read mousegray’s post except for that one sentence – the one about your screenname – which is in parentheses. I realize that you can’t actually block that sentence out when you read it, but I am wondering if it had not been there in the first place, whether mousegray’s post might not have offended you so much. (She did clearly convey that she believes you love your daughter very much and that you wholeheartedly believe that you are doing the best for your D.)

I think if you can see past the comment about your screenname, you might find mousegray’s post to be helpful. I could be wrong, but . . . I think it might be worth a re-read.

In any case, I don’t think there is a single poster here who does not hope that everything works out for your family.

Daughter just threw in the towel

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