<p>Don’t mind me, I’m just peeking in to see how this fairly innocuous “■■■■■■■■” thread ended up with 220 posts. Man, did I miss some good stuff or what? :)</p>
<p>I just wanted to add a thought to my post 217. </p>
<p>think about it… Why do you think we often hear dads say that when their D starts dating, they are going to greet the guy at the door with a shotgun and a message? (or some version of that). Why do men say this??? </p>
<p>BECAUSE THEY were young men once themselves. AND they remember - oh too well – how a few compliments, an “I love you”, and a few other niceties – can convince some of the even “nicest girls” to 'fall in love" and agree to sex. Now that these men are older, they realize that they may have “liked” the girl but they didn’t “commitment love” the girl. These dads now clearly see their actions for what they were and want to protect their D’s from suffering the same pain that they know that they put their various old girlfriends thru…</p>
<p>
aries~</p>
<p>Well, then I guess there are gradations of courtship. As I said, the people who subscribe to this where WE live are on the extreme end of it with the young man HAVING to approach the father first to ask for permission to court and then marry. The way it has been explained to me (and do remember that some of the people are GOOD friends of mine despite our philosophical/religious differences) is that the young people spend time in group situation, preferably church related, and if in the context of THAT setting, a boy decides he is interested in a girl, this whole process starts. The goal is to make sure that this “liking” leads to “courting” which then leads to marriage w/o the girl having been involved with more than ONE guy. I am still against this for many reasons, but as others have aptly pointed out, to each his own.</p>
<p>We take an very different approach in our family, BUT…remarkably I DO have “veto power,” not because I insist on it but rather because my kids have such a level of trust and respect for me that they SEEK this advice. Both my oldest S and oldest D (the only two who have dated so far) have expressed to me that it is VERY important that I “approve” of the person they have selected to date. I would never have to put my foot down about someone with these two…they would defer to what they consider to be my keen intuitive skills and my greater wisdom in “life experience.” So, they ARE getting the input, but it is done without stripping anyone’s empowerment. I think it is ESPECIALLY important to foster and preserve the empowerment of our young girls. Too many of them feel at the mercy of someone else. I will do everything in my power to encourage their trust in themselves when it comes to relationships. Perhaps NOT ironically, my D’s bf is VERY much like my h.s. boyfriend(s)–UBER respectful, kind, attentive, loving, and trustworthy–a very atypical 17-year-old. I have basically told her to expect NOTHING less for herself, and so far, she has followed my advice.</p>
<p>Aside from talking the talk, we walk the walk. My husband is VERY respectful and considerate of me. He shows immense amounts of gratitude for all that I do, even the smallest of things. He thanks me for EVERY meal cooked, every trip to the store, and everything I do for the kids and for him, and he has encouraged this same type of gratitude in our kids. Despite the fact that I have been home full time and he has a full time job (usually with lots of overtime), he helps around the house and cleans more than I do! <em>lol</em> As deluded as this may be, he truly thinks I am beautiful and compliments me daily. He often leaves me “love notes” on the backs of paper plates <em>lol</em> or sends me sweet emails. During one particularly difficult pregnancy, he left me lovely and romantic notes of encouragement on the counter each and every morning! Perhaps it is this modeling, more than anything else, that has influenced my D (and my S) to seek out quality relationships of their own choosing. I have been extremely pleased with their choices of love interests.</p>
<p>There are many women I know who simply accept whatever type of treatment is given to them. One woman in particular that I know is now going through a divorce initiated by her husband after his having cheated on her (among MANY other things), and yet, SHE still wanted to preserved the relationship…I don’t understand this. This is behavior that would not be acceptable to me, and <em>I</em> would have asked HIM to leave. Women such as this are NOT empowered and do NOT feel complete w/o a man. THAT is what I’m desperately trying to communicate to my kids, especially my three girls…that they don’t NEED a man to be/feel complete and that it is most assuredly worth the wait to find the kind of man who will be kind, respectful, attentive, and loving–this CAN be done outside of the confines of a “courting” relationship. I know…I did it myself.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No offense taken, Berurah! You are right about brainwashing…we all do it all the time. I think it’s an essential part of parenting! Most of us on this forum have probably been brainwashing our children since they were quite young that they <em>would</em> be going to college.</p>
<p>I also agree that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to practice a courtship philosophy if the kids were in a more mainstream educational environment. I think this is the problem for my S that I told about who wants to court the girl he has liked for 3 years. They are now both at a big state university. It’s very mainstream. They fortunately have a small group of friends there who were raised like they were and are sympathetic to their situation. The rest of their friends just think they are crazy for listening to the girl’s dad. I think that a more traditional courtship (all outings chaperoned, etc.) would have worked fine if she had stayed at home and attended college locally. Since she is not at home though, I think it is expecting too much to ask them not to be behaving as bf and gf. Asking them to behave as if there is no romantic relationship when there is one is one of those closing the barn door after the horse is gone kinds of things.</p>
<p>Again, I understand her parents’ perspective that being in a serious relationship for 3-4 years is not compatible with remaining sexually pure until marriage. Personally, I think they should just plan on marrying sooner. It’s kind of complicated though, because of S being in ROTC. It’s not impossible…just complicated.</p>
<p>I know some people think it’s odd to encourage their kids to marry young like that, but again…we haven’t raised them the same as everyone else. If there’s one thing our kids understand, it’s that marriage is a solemn vow and it’s for life. We’ve made sure they know that marriage is sometimes hard and sometimes they won’t feel like they even like their spouse, much less love them. Therefore, they know that it’s important that they not get involved with someone until they know them quite well and make sure there aren’t any deal-breaker issues with that person. We believe that’s the best protection against divorce or an unhappy marriage. Like someone here said earlier, learning how the other person treats his/her family and others can be really helpful in knowing what he/she is really like. (Unless he treats his mom really nice because he’s a mama’s boy, but that’s another issue for another day!)</p>
<p>I’m going to assume that the comment about Dad’s with shotguns is directed at my post about polishing the sword; if not, never mind. There are other possible motivations too and I flatly reject the insinuation made…perhaps one should be cautious about projecting one’s own experiences upon others.</p>
<p>My D often tries to get a rise out of me. As in she’ll come home and model a camisole top and say, what do you think, Dad. Mmmph. She giggles. Now, when she and a girl friend went to Victoria’s Secret, I did tell her that she could put three bras on my credit card and I just about fell over when the bill came…I guess I thought those flimsy bits of cloth cost $15-20 a piece, what do I know about buying bras?..and that satisfied, for the nonce, her desire to get her Dad’s goat. We have a whole mengarie that we trade back and forth.</p>
<p>
Well, timely, I’m about the biggest proponent of “whatever works for your own family” that you’ll ever find! 
And I do admire you for finding your own path and guiding your kids down it…I’m sure they will be grateful for the foundation that you have built for them.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I had a long day of work yesterday but elements of this thread kept recurring as I drove between appointments. It’s taken as a given that Dads are one of the most important influences in how girls turn out as they grow into women.</p>
<p>I’m not the most comfortable with some feminist language but I think it’s important for Dad’s to foster a girl’s ability to see herself a sexual person, not a sexual object; the former has a much better chance of falling into healthy relationships, I think. There is a mass of popular culture to work against, the most appalling of which are some of the alcohol-fueled “Girls Gone Wild” and “Wet T-Shirt” contests. Aside from a misleading implication that sexuality is defined by size of breasts and how much they’re displayed, I’ve looked at the expressions of the girls in some of these photos and wondered, “What are they <em>thinking</em>?” “What are they <em>feeling</em>?” “How does this mesh with how they approach relationships?”</p>
<p>Definition by exclusion is sometimes a useful tool. Modeling a healthy attitude that is neither a negative and non-informative (and not terribly useful) “thou shalt not” and and an irresponsible “whatever” is essential. Though I think a lot of Dads would rather go do yard work or tinker with their car or whatever and hope the whole question would just go away.</p>
<p>I think.</p>
<p>At least today.</p>
<p>I concur.</p>
<p>My father once said that it was better for my sister and I to see no relationship (with him & ex-wife) than a bad relationship. I think he was right. Sometime, I realized that I inherited - either via nature or nurture - of putting up with too much. First instinct is to put up with it, to work with the other person… and my tenth instinct is to leave because it’s more than any human should handle. </p>
<p>There’s also something to be said for Dads who love their daughters for who they are - much easier to expect that men will do that.</p>
<p>I wonder if the OP is reading the thread.</p>
<p>BlueAlien, he hasn’t posted since the 8th.
As the father of two girls I have enjoyed this thread enormously. Portions of it remind me of one of my friends whose daughter recently went on her first date. It was to a Junior-Senior banquet at which my friend was to serve as a chaperone. When the young man picked up his daughter, my friend showed him his shotgun and demonstrated the loading noise of the pump action. My friend arrived at the banquet after his daughter and her date and was immediately pulled aside by one of the teachers and informed that every Junior and Senior boy at the banquet had heard about the shotgun.</p>
<p>Wow. You’re friends with Dick Cheney?</p>
<p>Aries, I’m one of those who lived amid bad relationships as a kid. My pat line is “I came from a dysfunctional family before it was trendy.” </p>
<p>While it played havoc with my own life, including dating and mating, in a curious way I think the experience made me a <em>much</em> better parent., very focused and intent, aware of the stakes…and by avoiding a whole litany of parental options, I stumbled into some of the good ones.</p>
<p>You know, I changed colleges for a boy. Biggest mistake I ever made. But since I was on scholarship, my folks’ input fell on deaf ears. The relationship failed and the college was lousy. Our s. did everything he could to find a program near his GF, whom he has dated for 1.5 years. He couldn’t find one. Agreed to go to the best college for him, in another state. BUT says he will give it only a year. Says he must know by Thanksgiving if she is THE ONE, so he can behave accordingly at school. Says he can meet attractive girls and never date one. His uncle (my brother) and his wife married at 20 and at 45 are celebrating 25 years. Our S points to this constantly.
Now, our S’s GF is beautiful and brainy, although she worships him to the point of lunacy: “OH! You made a peanut-butter sandwich for me! That is soooo sweeeeeet!” She sends him constant letter (we live six minutes apart by car) with his name on the envelope covered with hearts. Who knows what they say? He has written a journal of love letters for her he intends to give her tonight – the night before he leaves – and has written every day for six months.
As for our families, I don’t think that matters, really, Her parents are “fun” (big party people). We’re quiet (a drag). Her sisters are three alcoholics in rehab. Her dad is an alcoholic not in rehab. We wouldn’t be all joyous if they got married today or ever but it’s not our life. SHE is very smart and bright but very, very manipulative: She says, “I don’t know if I can stay with you if you have to travel so much…but I REALLY want you to be happy.”
Whenever he wants to go out and party with their friends, she gets “sick.” She wants him alone with her, always. He broke up with her for one day and she stayed home from school for three days, recovering.
We would hate to see the dream our S has worked on for nine years go flush b/c of this girl’s allure.
Anyone else ever faced this, and not with a friend of a friend’s cousin?</p>