Deadline Approaching: Columbia vs Rice (undergraduate engineering to law/business school path)

College Search & Lists
1

Before May 1, I must decide between the Columbia or Rice mechanical engineering programs (the 13th best or the 8th best).

Here are a few things about me:
31 ACT (low reading and science, higher math and english), 4. 5 cumulative high school GPA
With FAFSA and outside scholarships (and 25k a year from Rice merit aid), I essentially have a full ride to both schools
At Columbia I have been selected as a CP Davis Scholar
I think a large part of my acceptances and awards from these schools is that I am both Native American and Hispanic
My career goal is to do mechanical engineering undergrad (as I like math and science) and then go to either law or business school (and be an IP lawyer or manage an engineering company).

Here are the impressions I have of the schools:
So I have visited Rice (with the VISION program) and I am visiting Columbia soon. At Rice I liked that it has a collaborative atmosphere and that it is not cut-throat. I think that by working hard and frequently going to office hours that I could get a good GPA (I have heard a 3.9 is considered good [dean’s list quality] at Rice). I know that I would be happy at Rice (because of grade inflation, general lack of cut-throat competition, and plus they have great food).

I understand that the SEAS at Columbia is graded on a curve, meaning my grades would reflect how I am doing compared to other students. This means that there is a competition aspect at the school. I am a good student, but I definitely do not want to be in a cut-throat atmosphere (which is why I will not attend Princeton or Johns Hopkins). I am afraid that I will lack a support group at Columbia and have a lower quality life there than Rice. I currently know that the Davis Scholar Program will give me access to research, free tickets to local events, and attendance to fancy science talks, but I am unaware of how it can give me connections or support. I do not know if being in the Davis Program should be a reason to go to Columbia. However, I currently have the impression that going to Columbia would give me a more well-rounded education (via the core curriculum) and make me more desirable to graduate schools and employers. It’s also in NYC, which could potentially be good for me if I choose to go a business route.

But ultimately, I want to know which paths are good to consider so that I can choose one of these schools. I understand that to get into a top law school (top ten or so) I probably need to make the dean’s list and have an exceptional LSAT score. To get into a good business school or hired by a good company I probably should be top 20% of my class. (So to get a good position I need to well in school, which is obvious).

I do not know whether I should consider law or business. I have heard that patent lawyers have a low satisfaction rate but make good (200k or so) money. I have heard that the engineering to business path is high-risk-high-reward and that if I don’t do exceptionally well that I will be stuck at a low-tier job. Which school would be best for which path, and which path should I consider?

Sorry for the long post, it’s just that I wanted to provide information that might help give me advice. Thank you

2

It doesn’t sound like you have any interest in law, so don’t decide based on that. Go to whichever school you like, do well, and if you find an interest in law along the way, law school will still be there. Just keep your GPA up and your options will stay open.

3

Columbia would offer better recruiting opportunities to the prestige business industries of banking and consulting, but SEAS isn’t exactly known for small classes or faculty who care about undergrad teaching.

I don’t know where you get the idea that Princeton is more competitive than Columbia.

Is it a full-ride to Princeton as well?

4

I would go with Columbia for the better recruiting opportunities in the areas you are interested , better overall reputation/prestige,better location (which leads to great opportunities) and overall academic offerings.

But if you feel that you really do not fit into Columbia, Rice is an excellent alternative.

5

I assume you plan to spend a few years in industry using your mechanical engineering degree before going to B/Law school? If that is the case then Rice might serve you well as its in the hub of the oil and gas industry - an industry that hires a ton of engineering grads.

Both schools will look good on a resume for grad school. Neither has a reputation that will give you a leg up over the other.

6

Easy choice: Columbia. It’s more prestigious. You’re clearly thinking about a lot of options for after college, and a Columbia degree will be more valuable throughout your career.

Rice vs. Columbia won’t matter much for law school, and you shouldn’t plan on a 3.9 GPA; I studied my tail off in college and didn’t get that.

7

Both great educations, so pick the one you like better.

After you visit Columbia, which of the two schools could you call ‘home’ for four years? Columbia has NYC as its backyard, which may or may not be a good thing, particularly if you are on need-based aid. (your friends are going out on the town, and you can only afford the dorm cafeteria.) Of course, plenty of wealthy kids at Rice too.

I would disagree with your characterization of Pton and Hopkins, at least the Engineering school. Sure, Hopkins premed is a grind, but the Hop’s engineers tend to be more geeky and collegial.

btw: I would assume that you will have a difficult time achieving a 3.9 in engineering. Nearly all of your very smart colleagues believe the same and, obviously, the science classes won’t be giving out 100% A’s.

8

@Demosthenes49 I do plan on working hard and doing well. However, I am somewhat worried that not taking action now will leave me ill-prepared for career opportunities. I have heard that doing things like applying for internships (to the larger, more selective companies such as Boeing and Space X) and studying for the LSAT starting August of my freshman year will put me in a good position. If I am interested in law/business after engineering, what should I be doing now to determine my interests? How can I avoid risks of waiting too long to decide my career path?

@HappyAlumnus - I am definitely taking the prestige of Columbia into account, but how exactly would a Columbia degree be more valuable than a Rice degree later down the road? Is it because Columbia makes more well-rounded engineers (via the common/global core)? What specific edges would having a Columbia engineering degree give me if I am pursuing a career in ip/patent law or business? Will being a Davis Scholar at Columbia connect me with better opportunities than being at Rice?

@HappyAlumnus and @bluebayou
I have heard that getting a high GPA at a good engineering school is possible but very difficult. I have heard stories of students prioritizing school above all else at Rice (one person I know got a 4.0 by not going to many social functions and using most of their free time to study) and others who were able to earn a 3.7 at Columbia while also balancing research projects and a social life. I will do things such as “studying my tail off,” but I am concerned that doing so will not assure me a top spot in my class - which I currently understand to be vital in gaining a spot in a top law/business school or company. What advice can you give me from your own experiences about doing well in an engineering program?

9

@PurpleTitan @Penn95

Considering Columbia graduates benefit from good recruiting, specifically how would going to Columbia for engineering expose me to opportunities in either law or business? If I wanted to, for example, get an engineering degree, work a few years at an engineering company, and go back to school for a MBA to pursue management positions, how would graduating from Columbia benefit me more so than going to Rice? On the other hand, would having a Columbia degree increase my odds of getting into a top law firm?

@Penn95
I am definitely considering the prestige of Columbia in my decision-making process. Could you please elaborate how this factor and the location of NYC would improve my chances of getting a top job? Do you know if the internship opportunities that come with being a Davis Scholar at Columbia are too good to pass up?

@maroon79
I am planning on working a few years before going to grad school. Do you know if Houston would have advantages over NYC in my desired career path?

10

I already answered in post #1.
I did not mention law. It would not help more for law.

11

Before May 1, I must decide between the Columbia or Rice mechanical engineering programs (the 13th best or the 8th best).

Here are a few things about me:
31 ACT (low reading and science, higher math and english), 4. 5 cumulative high school GPA
With FAFSA and outside scholarships (and 25k a year from Rice merit aid), I essentially have a full ride to both schools
At Columbia I have been selected as a CP Davis Scholar
I think a large part of my acceptances and awards from these schools is that I am both Native American and Hispanic
My career goal is to do mechanical engineering undergrad (as I like math and science) and then go to either law or business school (and be an IP lawyer or manage an engineering company).

Here are the impressions I have of the schools:
So I have visited Rice (with the VISION program) and I am visiting Columbia soon. At Rice I liked that it has a collaborative atmosphere and that it is not cut-throat. I think that by working hard and frequently going to office hours that I could get a good GPA (I have heard a 3.9 is considered good [dean’s list quality] at Rice). I know that I would be happy at Rice (because of grade inflation, general lack of cut-throat competition, and plus they have great food).

I understand that the SEAS at Columbia is graded on a curve, meaning my grades would reflect how I am doing compared to other students. This means that there is a competition aspect at the school. I am a good student, but I definitely do not want to be in a cut-throat atmosphere (which is why I will not attend Princeton or Johns Hopkins). I am afraid that I will lack a support group at Columbia and have a lower quality life there than Rice. I currently know that the Davis Scholar Program will give me access to research, free tickets to local events, and attendance to fancy science talks, but I am unaware of how it can give me connections or support. I do not know if being in the Davis Program should be a reason to go to Columbia. However, I currently have the impression that going to Columbia would give me a more well-rounded education (via the core curriculum) and make me more desirable to graduate schools and employers. It’s also in NYC, which could potentially be good for me if I choose to go a business route.

But ultimately, I want to know which paths are good to consider so that I can choose one of these schools. I understand that to get into a top law school (top ten or so) I probably need to make the dean’s list and have an exceptional LSAT score. To get into a good business school or hired by a good company I probably should be top 20% of my class. (So to get a good position I need to well in school, which is obvious).

I do not know whether I should consider law or business. I have heard that patent lawyers have a low satisfaction rate but make good (200k or so) money. I have heard that the engineering to business path is high-risk-high-reward and that if I don’t do exceptionally well that I will be stuck at a low-tier job. Which school would be best for which path, and which path should I consider?

Sorry for the long post, it’s just that I wanted to provide information that might help give me advice. Thank you

12

This is all about fit:

  • NYC vs. Houston
  • Columbia has more students and a much smaller campus
  • Rice's residential colleges vs. Columbia's less guaranteed housing situation.

Read up on student happiness. I think Rice probably provides the better experience for kids not fixated on NYC, but Columbia has better overall academics and rep. In your case, though,
Rice is at least as good as Columbia, probably better – since STEM is Rice’s main focus – for your intended major.

That said, if you moved away from STEM, Columbia is stronger overall academically.

So:

Slight edge to Columbia overall in academics

Slight edge to Rice in STEM

For kids who prefer a more relaxed environment with more secure housing, Rice is the better environment fit. If you don’t mind the relatively cramped space at Columbia, and you want NYC, Columbia is the environmental fit.

Columbia is thought generally to be more academically intense than Rice, though Engineering is intense pretty much everywhere, so…

For social vibe, Owls seem to party more on campus, while Lions seem to go off campus more. Partying and going out will almost invariably cost more at Columbia.

13

“Prestige” is an interesting word. Columbia has a larger student body and is close to NY, one of the cities that set the standards for the rest of the country about what we should consider “prestigious”. A considerable percentage of NY City media writers/execs have probably never met a Rice grad, but most probably know several Columbia grads. In terms of raw size (not large, but larger than Rice) and proximity to a thought-leader city (NY vs. Houston), it is probably true that Columbia is more “prestigious” than Rice - for whatever that is worth. That is not to say it is in better (in general), or better for you. It also does not mean that it will get you a better starting job, or more opportunities down the road. Admission profiles (ACT/SAT) are very similar between the two, so the quality of your peers will be similar. My experience at Rice as an EE was that I was heavily recruited by all of the national consulting firms and by investment banking firms. I had many friends who went each path, all out of Rice Engineering.

You will have good opportunities out of either for both an introduction into an ME career and IP law down the road. Rice might actually have the edge for helping you get an ME job that will also expose you to IP law or engineering management, but I can’t give you any hard data on that. Finances being equal, my advice is to finish your visit to Columbia and then go with your heart/gut. The campus life, off campus life, and climate are very different at the two (as others have pointed out), so you probably will have a natural draw to one over the other. Just go with it!

14

UPDATE: I have returned from my visit to Columbia (I was there over the weekend, but was unable to see any classes, unfortunately).

What interests me most about Columbia are the recruitment/employment opportunities.
Other than the ample supply of businesses around NYC, as a Davis Scholar (which is engineering version of Columbia Undergraduate Scholars Program [CUSP]), I will have easier access to grants/research funding, internship connections, and advice.
The research funding is helpful, but not stellar. The director of the CUSP program said if 150 students asked for 5000 dollars that they wouldn’t be able to fund each request. Of course, any money received will depend on the project, but I do not think that this help is extremely noteworthy.

The internship connections, however, are very interesting. The CUSP program gives its members exclusive access to many internships, and this combines with NYC’s diverse job market to offer me great access to career preparation.
At Columbia, I also get an additional, personalized advisor to help me plan my courses and extracurricular activities to best fit my career path.

I also greatly liked the campus itself and its surrounding NYC environment (but I am not so sure I’d enjoy it equally during the winter).
However, my main question right now is if these things really make Columbia worth attending.
I noticed that graduate students are a huge portion of the student body. This makes me wary of the things @PurpleTitan described, that professors would not care as much about undergraduate students. I also think that this 6:1 student-teacher ratio is made smaller by grad school classes.
I do not want to be in a cutthroat and overpopulated environment that lacks support from faculty and my classmates. Some people I talked to during my visit told me it was not cutthroat, but others transferred out of SEAS because they did not like the atmosphere. But then again, maybe the academic community and counseling that CUSP provides would solve these potential problems.

Other than my academic concerns, I am skeptical of my potential day-to-day happiness at Columbia. The recreational center is of very poor quality. I greatly enjoy basketball and running, and Columbia’s only rec center, Dodge, has only one basketball court (the other is the team’s official court, which I imagine is not open to the non-athletes very often) which was not wood and has a specific schedule (only certain days of the week at certain times, and it changes often) for when people can play on it. The running track was also bad, as it had an incline on the outside lane (which is the fast lane). My impression is that there aren’t really any other places to run except central park, which is not very close to campus.

While my perceived cons of Columbia - the lackluster support for undergraduates and the rec center - are not present (as I understand) at Rice, I would gladly attend Columbia if the benefits of the Davis Program will give help me advance in my career, and I would still be happy. I could probably solve my academic concerns with my advisor and study groups, and I would only be at the rec center about an hour each day.

As of right now, I believe that Rice is a good fit for me (@prezbucky). It’s strong in STEM and has an environment that I could be consistently happy in. However, I still wonder if this Davis program at Columbia is too good to pass up. Some of my fellow Davis scholars said they will go to MIT, so that makes me believe it is not - but then again, I am not accepted into a top three engineering program.

I would greatly appreciate any insight on this matter. Thank you

15

@redgreen243 The fact that other Davis scholars admits are choosing to attend MIT instead, does not say much about eh quality of the program. MIT is MIT, of course it is bound to be chosen over Columbia most of the time.

I feel the Davis program will help offset some of your concern about lack of attention to undergrads etc.Columbia has the edge in terms of opportunities, but Rice also does pretty well.
If you feel you will be much happier at Rice then go for it.

16

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@redgreen243 If I wanted to, for example, get an engineering degree, work a few years at an engineering company, and go back to school for a MBA to pursue management positions, how would graduating from Columbia benefit me more so than going to Rice?

[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it would. Rice engineering is very highly respected and graduates have access to recruitment by top firms seeking engineers. After a few years working as an engineer, when you go to get your MBA it won’t make much difference whether you did undergrad at Rice or Columbia.

Don’t forget that happiness is a not insignificant component of the undergrad experience and your overall success.

17

Columbia is going to be more difficult than Rice. You will almost certainly not get a 3.9 at Columbia, and should not expect to.

Columbia will almost certainly be a more challenging curriculum, and you will learn more there. You will have to deal with SEAS and the trimmed down SEAS version of the Columbia core. If you have the resilience to get through it, I recommend that you go for it. Columbia students are collaborative, not cutthroat, but they are competing for grades on a curve. Most Columbia students tend to view it as being all in it together.

In addition to what you will learn, the Columbia name will create more opportunities for you. It is a global brand to people who hire top talent in all subject areas. Columbia also has world class graduate programs in engineering, business, law, medicine etc. It also has a larger alumni network, and is a member of the broader Ivy League network. In my opinion, especially if you are from a low income background, this is very valuable.

Also, the access to internships and opportunities in NYC is valuable, and Philadelphia is only about an hour away too.

18

Is the Davis thing enough to overcome Rice’s laid back campus environment and happy vibe advantages? That seems to be the central issue, to me.

As far as kids choosing MIT over Columbia, in Engineering that isn’t surprising – that’s MIT’s bread and butter. No shame for Columbia there.

@Penn95 may be right about Columbia having an overall advantage in opportunities. But Rice Engineering is highly respected too. I would imagine a Rice Engineering grad would be able to get a decent job.

You can’t make a bad choice here if you follow your gut – both are outstanding and if you work hard, they’ll likely launch you into success. Both are great academically and by rep, so go with the one that feels most like home.

19

@Much2learn, Columbia, and certainly SEAS specifically, is challenging, but how do you know that Columbia is more difficult than Rice?

Do you have direct experience with Rice’s curriculum?

20

@prezbucky For MIT being chosen over Columbia, it happens for every non-humanities field, not just engineering, (and most humanities people do not apply to MIT anyway). But I agree there is no shame in that, the same happens for almost all non-HYPSM schools, MIT is MIT.