Debt-Free Education or Dream School Debt?

You are probably aware of this, but PhD studies are usually funded with a tuition remission plus a stipend that allows one to live adequately but not luxuriously. At least in STEM, and at least prior to the current political war on education. Master’s programs are usually not funded this way unless they are a master’s that is obtained en route to a PhD. Some schools will let students pursue a 5th-year master’s (ie, shaving some time off) and some schools may let them pursue a concurrent bachelor’s and master’s (Brown just recently halted their concurrent bachelor’s and master’s program in CS, for instance).

Editing to add that you can google PhD stipends by college name of interest to get a sense of it. MIT’s stipend is around 60k a year, plus the tuition remission. Students have to TA or RA but that’s part of the education as well.

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No, I’m not aware of a lot of things. I’m just learning along the way from the student, their counselor, and now this forum. Thank you for sharing!

Wow

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“Adequately” is correct. Typically at least for a STEM PhD program the university pays tuition and fees, and pays for health insurance, and provides a stipend. The term “stipend” refers to money that the university pays to the student to cover things like rent and food and incidental expenses.

You might think of a STEM PhD program as a very interesting research job that pays badly, but if your research succeeds then eventually they give you a doctorate (and it does pay something).

The stipend typically is enough to live frugally in the area where the university is.

Some small amount of parent financial help to the student is not typically needed, but can help. Given that a PhD can easily take 6 or 7 years, living poor for 7 years requires quite a bit of dedication on the part of the student. A small additional amount of funds might allow the student to live a bit better (eg, maybe go out to eat occasionally). Also, a 6 or 7 year delay in starting to fund retirement plans such as a Roth IRA can make an unfortunate significant difference 40 years later when the former student is getting old and ready to retire. However, apparently Congress decided a while back to clarify that the stipend counts as income for purposes of funding an IRA (this assumes that we are in the USA). Unfortunately the stipend is not enough to both live on and fund an IRA. A small amount of financial support from the parent to the child could allow the student to fund rent and food and also fund for example a Roth IRA. In the short term this really does not impact the student. 40 years later it is likely to matter. I also think that teaching our children to put money into retirement funds is a good lesson for them to learn.

Thus some small amount of financial help from the parent to the PhD student can be helpful, but note the word “small” and also note that for a PhD student this is really not actually needed. The student typically can live just on the stipend alone.

Master’s degrees are different. They are shorter in length (one or two years), and are typically not funded. I have heard of a few cases where the student gets some financial aid, but this is probably fairly unusual and even if it happens is not enough aid to cover the full cost.

Another issue is that some students do not get accepted directly into a PhD program after getting a bachelor’s degree. It is common for students to work for a year or two or three hopefully at a research job (since research experience can help a lot with PhD admissions). However, some students get a master’s degree after getting their bachelor’s degree before going for a PhD. Master’s degree programs are typically not funded, and can be full pay (eg could in some cases cost close to $100,000 per year for two years – note that a research based master’s degree often takes 2 years).

Some STEM fields (eg, engineering) do not really need any graduate school at all. For engineering and math there are some one year master’s degrees which can be valuable but which are not needed to have a good career. Working in high tech for my entire life I have only met a small handful of people who had a PhD, and mostly they just did the same job that the rest of us did (whether better or worse depended upon the person, but probably not on the degree). I have known a larger number of people, but probably still a minority of coworkers, who had a master’s degree. Personally as a math major I did get a one year master’s degree, and I did find it to be valuable.

For some science careers a PhD can be helpful. For example if you get a bachelor’s degree in biology (or probably I expect in chemistry) with a lot of lab experience you can get a decent job, but someone else will be deciding how the research is going to be done. If you want to be helping to set direction in a research field, a PhD is likely to be needed.

For the PhD program where my daughter is currently studying, I am pretty sure that the majority of the PhD students do not have a master’s degree, but a significant minority do have a master’s. There are also a few students who applied for a PhD program but were accepted for the master’s degree program instead. Again if they choose to go for the master’s degree these students would be way better off if their parents could afford to help them pay for the master’s degree.

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How many of the 25 universities are actually affordable without going in to major debt? I guess I’m confused on how the school list was put together. Is Lehigh with the scholarship the only really affordable option on the list? The original question of this thread was taking this Lehigh offer or going in to debt for a “dream school” like MIT. As @tsbna44 pointed out, there are many schools where strong students are given full tuition or even full ride scholarships. Why is Lehigh being so strongly considered(without visiting) and no other high merit schools?

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It’s a mix. The list includes private schools known for offering significant merit scholarships (e.g., Santa Clara University, Fordham, WashU and some others), a few far-reach institutions like MIT, Princeton, and Harvey Mudd (she completed their WISTEM program), and state schools such as the UCs and Cal Poly etc. It is a really long list.

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From what we are learning about it, it is a great school and graduating debt-free is still important. Big deal is that it is R1 university.

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What area of research is she interested in? Is it something esoteric or more mainstream?

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Broadly, her interests span research applying mathematics, physics, engineering, and computer science. She is still figuring those out, but she’s done a lot of work in computer vision and computational geometry

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Thanks for the information.

Just my opinion, but if graduating debt free is a major consideration, I’d want to be able to compare offers from all the schools on that list. And perhaps add some sure thing admit full ride schools. Committing to the Lehigh offer(if it comes) doesn’t allow the flexibility to compare.

And as an fyi, there are 187 R1 research schools, including many of the high merit schools. Lehigh was only recently added to the R1 list.

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Another FYI: any PHD worth pursuing will be funded.
Any PHD student who’s not funded is considered a dilettante and not taken seriously since their own university is not finding them worth paying for the work they could potentially do. Some universities simply won’t admit students they won’t fund.

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Has she found a professor or professors with whom to work at Lehigh?

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So…if your student does not receive the Lehigh scholarship (notified by December 1), can they switch their Lehigh application to regular decision?

My concern is that this student doesn’t want to miss some of the early application deadlines for significant merit aid elsewhere.

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@Twoin18 @DadOfJerseyGirl and others with relevant knowledge:

Are there particular types of institutions that would be best for a student with these interests? Are there any Big Merit™ schools that you would recommend for these interests? Is an R1 designation important for this type of work?

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I believe the OP said that if their child doesn’t get the scholarship they are released from their ED commitment. I can see that this is tough choice given that they’d prefer a budget of $15-20k per year (essentially room and board) but NPCs at top schools are coming back between $40-60. UC’s would also be around $40k in-state. If they decide not to go ahead with Lehigh, the OP should make sure there are sufficient budget friendly options on the list - meaning assured to come in at budget as opposed to having a chance of coming in at budget via a highly competitive scholarship (i.e. STAMPS).

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Have her take a close look at UCSB’s college of creative studies. They are a small subset within UC Santa Barbara and have only a handful of majors, but that includes CS, physics and math. They are geared for the extremely intellectually curious, independent students and are really like a mini-grad school. And being a UC, it is in state for you. It is unique. It does require an additional application, but it’s not too onerous — or at least it wasn’t when my kid applied a few years ago.

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Hello AustenNut. Unfortunately, computer vision and computational geometry aren’t fields I’m familiar with, so I’ll need to do some research to determine which schools are best known for them. That said, I expect there are a wide variety of schools doing computer vision research - not just the very top ones.

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I would do the Lehigh scholarship in this circumstance. As I understand it, it is not actually “ED” at all as all of us conventionally understand it. Rather, the kid is a finalist for a scholarship that required them to commit early that IF they get the scholarship, they will come to Lehigh. If they don’t get the scholarship, they then CAN apply to Lehigh in the RD pool. If my family had a budget of $15-$20k, and my kid was a finalist for said scholarship at Lehigh and based on the kid’s and my research through Oct 24 with a Nov 1 deadline, the kid was fine with Lehigh, I’d do the scholarship thing with no regrets. I would however immediately have the kid start dialing Lehigh students with similar interests (academic and social) to zoom with them or whatever to get as much comfort with the culture as I could as other suggested. But, this does not seem a hard choice for me given the budget issues and not having to commit absent the scholarship which the kid is 1 of 2 to get at this point.

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Do you know kids at Lehigh (or recent grads)? Just curious. It is as much a “fit school” as some of the others mentioned, but unlike an urban school where a kid at MIT can have friends at BU, Wellesley, Tufts, Harvard (which MIT kids call “Cambridge Community College” even though there are a lot of Harvard/MIT ties!), Northeastern, Brandeis, etc- Lehigh is a skootch more isolated (without a car, socializing with kids at the other colleges in the valley is challenging). And smaller. So seems a bit riskier choice for a kid in California who hasn’t visited.

OP- good luck. Your kid sounds fantastic!

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I would take R1 out - at the undergrad level. I’m not sure it’s “that important”. Others may think I’m wrong.

I don’t think SLO is R1/2. Schools like Wake Forest, TCU, UAH, Miami Ohio and more aren’t R1.

I would find the right school - there are brilliant PhDs everywhere doing research. Will the grant money be there - maybe, maybe not - but I don’t think someone will be held down if they don’t go to R1 - I mean, look at the PhD feeder list is loaded with LACs.

At the same time, R1 schools like U of Kansas, where my uncle was a professor, are loaded with leading research opportunities at a dirt cheap price.

I still have a hard time suggesting somebody leave a full ride at a fantastic school - and I don’t care if it’s R1 or not - you are talking $17 or $18K.

Others with high merit assured will be low 20s-30s.

Even UCs will be 40-ish.

The OP will be taking personal financial risks that they may not be able to recover from if they walk away from this award - if it happens.

I don’t’ think that should be minimized.

In essence - maybe the student has to take one for the team.

But if going to an outstanding school like Lehigh, with added enrichment to boot which most don’t get (leadership, study abroad) is an issue - then it’s an issue 99% of kids in America would love to have. Everyone would take one for the team!!

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@hochreichkopf I sent you a private message. Look for the envelope icon at the upper right of your screen next to your user icon.