<p>vin2l is right.
AdOfficer, how do you feel about top schools directly communicating with each other about selected applicants and then decidng who will be admitted where? GCs fixing the school choices by supplying info to Admissions Staff is only a shade different, but still unethical.</p>
<p>This is why I do not have conversations with college counselors…it drives them nuts, and because my territories include some of the most prestigious boarding and private schools in the country, I haven’t made a lot of friends in the college counselor world. </p>
<p>Do I think it’s fair? Not necessarily. At the same time, plenty of schools are making decisions based on “demonstrated interest” and “yieldability” anyway, so I’m not sure this is so bad. Most students who are applying to Ivies aren’t going to choose a non-Ivy over, say, Brown or Yale. Quite frankly, if a student has no intent on attending an institution, I think it is unethical of them to apply in the first place…I have a similar issue with students who only apply to institutions to get merit-aid offers only to “barter” with their first choice schools. Similar issue with students applying EA to schools they have no intention of enrolling at - they just apply to “see” if they have a shot at a certain kind of school. </p>
<p>There’s plenty about the admissions process that isn’t fair, some things that aren’t “ethical”…but as far as counselors talking to admissions officers, I am not horrified by it. On the contrary, most students at prep and boarding schools and their parents know these conversations happen - that’s what they are paying for. Independent college counselors do the same thing. It’s more a reflection of American society than it is of ethics in the college counseling/admissions profession. Money gets you privilege or an extra foot in the door.</p>
<p>Thanks for replying AdOfficer, but I’m still pretty horrified.</p>
<p>I think conflicts of interest are unethical. The revealing of information by a GC unfairly harms the applicant in favor of other students, the high school or the university. </p>
<p>I don’t think its unethical at all for schools to make decisions based on demonstrated interest and yieldability provided they don’t use “inside information” that they are not entitled to. If the parents of private school kids signed a waiver allowing this shenanigans to go on, then everybody’s in the loop. But otherwise, I don’t see how this can even be ethical or legal. </p>
<p>"Quite frankly, if a student has no intent on attending an institution, I think it is unethical of them to apply in the first place… "</p>
<p>I plan to apply to schools I think I can be happy at, including a safety which I have no intention of going. I pay my application fee, do my application. I won’t know where I get in until I get in. Nonetheless, I intend to first see where I get in and then spend more time making a good decision. Where is the ethical problem?</p>
<p>“I have a similar issue with students who only apply to institutions to get merit-aid offers only to “barter” with their first choice schools. Similar issue with students applying EA to schools they have no intention of enrolling at - they just apply to “see” if they have a shot at a certain kind of school”</p>
<p>There are two sides to a barter. The first choice school can simply say no. Then there is a huge incentive to take the merit aid at the second choice. This is fair and ethical. Where is the conflict of interest. </p>
<p>The schools that offer EA are the very top top schools. Its not inconceivable that someone would apply and not want to get their hopes up, but once an offer comes, have a whole new perspective. If they want me, maybe I should give them a fair look. </p>
<p>None of the cases you cite are ethical issues.</p>
<p>“The schools that offer EA are the very top top schools”
no…i was adviced to apply to northeastern EA as safety…and got in with half scholarship …</p>
<p>"I don’t think its unethical at all for schools to make decisions based on demonstrated interest and yieldability provided they don’t use “inside information” that they are not entitled to. If the parents of private school kids signed a waiver allowing this shenanigans to go on, then everybody’s in the loop. But otherwise, I don’t see how this can even be ethical or legal. "</p>
<p>the school has every right to tell the colleges whatever they want…you signed the waiver on the common app school report, remember? you agree to let the school disclose information regarding you to the colleges</p>
<p>and most of the time, it’s the colleges who call…BU is known for doing that and pressuring the school college advisors…all they have to ask is a simple question, </p>
<p>“how far up do you think we are on whichever student’s list?”</p>
<p>I don’t think that was the intent of the common app waiver. </p>
<p>This is all anti-competitive. Same as the case when the Ivy’s were sharing confidential information on financial aid. Its no different when the GC is in the loop. </p>
<p>BU’s question is flagrantly unethical.</p>
<p>I’d like to bring this issue up in a larger forum than a Tufts thread</p>
<p>I started a new thread on this topic, admittedly with my own bias :-)</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=300247[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=300247</a></p>
<p>AdOfficer, please don’t take this personally, I appreciate your insight, and who knows, maybe you may now or in the future have the power to stop anti-competitive practices in AdComs.</p>
<p>vin2l – I think that AdOfficer meant that some students apply to schools they would never, ever attend – just “to see.” I liked my safety a lot, and I knew that if I wasn’t admitted to my first-choice schools, I would go there and be happy (with some good merit $$ in my pocket, lol). It sounds like it was the same case with you. The problem is, I know some people who applied to top schools with absolutely no intention of going. They had already accepted a full-ride or something from a “lower” tier school, and applied to top colleges “to see.” Same goes for people with 5 safeties, lol.</p>
<p>I don’t really understand these arguments against people applying to tons of schools, aside from the college’s perspective that it lowers yield and potentially wastes an adcom’s time. Otherwise, the SAME number of kids are going to enter each class each year, so if someone gets accepted and doesn’t go - IT DOESN’T MATTER! The spot gets taken by someone else! That’s what waitlists are for. It doesn’t hurt other students at all because the same number of spots are available, and each student can only go to one school. So whether you apply to 2 school or 20 schools, you aren’t “taking someone’s spot” by applying and then not going.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s incredibly selfish for adcoms to pressure guidance counselors for information to protect their yield. It’s the student’s decision to make, NO ONE ELSE’S.</p>
<p>Why apply to a school you have no intention of going to and waitlists, now THAT;s a fun thing to be put on</p>
<p>Sometimes it takes maturity to whittle down a real list, do research, and realize that your decision to just apply willnilly affects other people</p>
<p>That is what a real college student would do…why apply to 20 if you have no intention of really going and to do so to gratify your ego is pretty immature and childish</p>
<p>I personally only applied to 7, but I hate when people ***** and complain about others who apply to 20. IT DOESN’T MATTER TO YOU! Mind your own business and get over it. If you kid/friend doesn’t get it, it WASN’T because some people apply to a lot of schools.</p>
<p>I myself applied to “only” seven, two of which I do not want to go to unless my top choices end up costing $10,000 more. In my case, one of my top choices is a safety-match so I’m happy, and I would choose it over Stanford and Caltech if I were to get in to all those schools unless they gave me more aid, but I would be somewhat disappointed if I were accepted to Stanford and then my top choice rejected me because of that.</p>
<p>I believe in applying to as many schools as one likes and then accepting the best deal from the point of view of academics, financial aid, etc. At the time of applying we don’t know as much as in March/April. Of course it costs time and a bit of money (app fee, etc.) but it is a small price to pay.<br>
If a student is applying to a college which he/she has no intention at all of attending, then it seems like a waste, but can’t be called unethical. As 19382 points out this student can’t deprive someone else of s spot by not going to a certain school, so the only complaint should be that ADCOMs’ time is wasted. But ADCOMs themselves are guilty of wasting A LOT of students’ time and resources by not being upfront about how the decisions are made. Top schools encourage all to apply (saying “Grades don’t matter”, “Scores don’t matter”, etc), and then take in the hooked, well-connected, top privates, or AA applicants leaving out middle class /poor kids generally high and dry. I have applied to a few IVYs and I have no intention of going even if I get in because of the cost (I don’t qualify for much financial aid). I am all set to go to to honors program in my State Univ. But I applied to IVYs anyway because my GC insisted that I apply, and because I intend to buy a lottery ticket in the first week of March. So it is always better to apply and see how things turn out…</p>
<p>“But I applied to IVYs anyway because my GC insisted that I apply, and because I intend to buy a lottery ticket in the first week of March. So it is always better to apply and see how things turn out…”</p>
<p>LMAO, Great response! One of my all time favs! Makes me proud to be an American :-). You deserve the best dude, I hope you get in AND win the lottery, but if you go to a prep school, you’d better go in half on that ticket with your GC.</p>
<p>First of all, it is usually NOT the college that calls the high school to chat about its applicants but the high school that calls the college. We get calls all the time from schools asking us to talk to them about their applicants - it is not the other way around usually. </p>
<p>I do think it is unethical for a student to apply to a college they have absolutely no intention of attending…this is the problem with the “college search” nowadays - too many students are applying to colleges they don’t really know enough about…if you do your homework well in the fall, you should not be surprised in April when you get your decisions. Sure, it is great to have a safety, but keep in mind that for most students out there, your safety is probably a reach or fit for a lot of other students. If you are applying to the Ivies, etc…, and are competitive for admission to them, chances are you’re not going to have a problem getting in to American, Tulane, or NYU…if you have no intention of enrolling at these schools, I don’t think it is fair to everyone else who would attend these schools if admitted to apply. You are taking their spot or, at best, bumping others onto a waitlist and extending their agony. </p>
<p>I’m actually rather insulted by your post CollegeBound2007…we do encourage as many people who are interested in our schools to apply - do we know what your high school transcript, gpa, test scores, essays, and activities are when you visit the campus for an info session? Do we know this information when we meet you at a college fair? Do we know this info when we interview you? Do we know this information about the thousands of others applying that year? No, we don’t, so we really have no clue as to what your chances - or any student’s chances - will be. Thus, everyone is encouraged to apply if they feel the school is a fit for them. In addition, your comment about “hooked” students is grossly exaggerated…if you have a question about how decisions are made at a particular school, call them up and ask them directly - they will tell you how they make their decisions. if you want to ask an uncomfortable question, ask it…we have backbones and will answer you. if you want more info on “hooked” students and how the process works, look at my previous posts in other threads, but don’t throw out comments not based on any substantiated fact. And by the way, if anything, middle class and poor kids aren’t being left high and dry - we are actually VERY sensitive to these students and make a lot of decisions with a family’s financial situation in mind. </p>
<p>19382 - yes, if you apply to a school and get in and don’t go, you still have taken someone else’s spot. we make our decisions based on all the kids in our applicant pools; we accept students for very specific reasons - usually by understanding what they will add to our campus individually. if you are admitted and do not come, we aren’t simply going to the waitlist and pulling off someone random - we are going to look for a kid on the waitlist who is similar to you. waitlisted students are on the waitlist for very specific reasons. </p>
<p>As far as fishing for merit aid is concerned, I’m sorry, but you are never going to convince me that it’s okay to fish for it if you aren’t going to use it. If you apply to a college and get big money from them and you think it is a fit for you but ultimately don’t go, that’s one thing. But to simply apply to a school you do not want to attend and will not attend just to get an offer of aid to use it to get more money from another school is backhanded and unethical. Remember that most schools are robbing their need-based aid budgets to give out merit aid - usually to kids who are already privileged and don’t need the money. Some schools - big name schools - are giving out more merit aid than they are need-based, “leaving middle class /poor kids generally high and dry,” to use Collegebound2007’s words. </p>
<p>Bottom line is this…private schools and boarding schools call selective colleges all the time trying to advocate for students…we take the calls because we want to keep our relationships with these schools. Do we always take their “advice” ? No…many adcoms I know listen to the counselors, but do what they want anyway. We make our decisions with very limited information, and these counselors are trying to give us more info than we have. If you attend a private or boarding school and don’t know whether or not this is happening, I’m shocked. Not all private and boarding schools do this, but many do.</p>
<p>I agree that applying to a school “just to see if I can get in” is not a good thing to do. However, the prestige of an ivy league acceptance is just too attractive for many kids (and their parents!) to pass up. Some of my D’s friends have done just that. They won’t go if accepted, because they fall into the middle class EFC-too-high-need-merit-aid-or-mom-dad-and-the-kids-won’t-be-able-to-afford-to-eat income bracket. They just really want to have their hard work validated by getting an ivy acceptance. I can understand this, although my own D wouldn’t bother doing the work of applying if she had no intention of attending.</p>
<p>My D did, however, apply to a number of schools. When dealing with small, selective liberal arts schools, there is NO WAY to know if a given student will be accepted. She did her homework and found schools that seemed to suit her, but she could not bank on being accepted to any of them. To add to the problem, she needs some merit aid to make the schools affordable. We make too much to get much aid, but too little to comfortably afford as much as we “should” be able to afford (I don’t want to get into a debate about THAT). So … she needed schools that MIGHT offer good merit aid … again, there are no guarantees. </p>
<p>In the end, she will most likely have schools that she will turn down. Sorry, but that’s how it’s going to be.</p>
<p>CollegeBound…a lot of kids at the Ivys are not rich kids/AA kids…there are a LOT of middle-class people (including me, and all my friends who were admitted) going there. Please don’t insult an entire group without knowing who’s in it.</p>
<p>AdOfficer - if you apply to a school and don’t attend, how is that still taking someone’s spot? You DO go to the waitlist and pick someone else. The same amount of kids enter each class, regardless of how many apply and decide not to attend. ??</p>
<p>I have seen on this website dozens and dozens of kids getting acceptences and saying “I would never go there” why in the WORLD apply if there is no chance you will attend</p>
<p>As for wanting to have the validation, that is kind of sad, I still don’t understand the need to apply to schools that a student really really doesn’t want to go to…that is different from picking safeties just in case…</p>
<p>If you don’t think you are hurting others by applying willy nilly, you are pretty selfish and naive</p>
<p>Say you apply to 20 schools, get 10 acceptences, with only an real interest in 4, which from what I have seen, is the most likely scenario- then you have 6 schools you never wanted to attend- then the school waits a month BEFORE releasing your spot to somebody who is on a waitlist (if they are lucky) who has been waiting. As well, say the school had 5000 applicants, and accepted 2500, and say 150 were just like you, applying just because, now there are 150 in the reject or waitlist pile that otherwise would have been in the accepted pile</p>
<p>So if you think, oh this is fun, we will just apply and it hurts no one, even though I don’t want to really go here, I am just curious, GROW UP!!! And see the bigger picture</p>