<p>“First of all, it is usually NOT the college that calls the high school to chat about its applicants but the high school that calls the college. We get calls all the time from schools asking us to talk to them about their applicants - it is not the other way around usually.”</p>
<p>wait a second, last time when i had a question to ask my college advisor in the college office, the secretary told my advisor that “Whoever from wherever is calling and wants to talk about applicant A & B?” and they ended up talking for an hour …ugh… (i dont wanna give specifics but the school is a highly selective LAC)</p>
<p>but ya… I see how my college advisors are “friends” with so many admissions people, whatever college i mention i am going to apply to, names pop up and she would be like “oh, he’s my old friend”</p>
<p>and typically 3 times a year, we have huge college fairs where all the most selective colleges send representatives here and each take a classroom and we walk around and collect information…those nights, we see our college advisors going around socializing and almost everyone seems like old friends!!</p>
<p>adofficier - you said you dont have much friends in the circle… does this affect your job?</p>
<p>I agree that applying for the fun of it is stupid. But I don’t think ANYONE has the right to judge on how many schools someone applies to if they have a genuine interest in the school or a need to cast a wide net for financial reasons.</p>
<p>““so if someone gets accepted and doesn’t go - IT DOESN’T MATTER! The spot gets taken by someone else! That’s what waitlists are for. It doesn’t hurt other students at all because the same number of spots are available, and each student can only go to one school. So whether you apply to 2 school or 20 schools, you aren’t “taking someone’s spot” by applying and then not going.””</p>
<p>so do you see now that it in fact DOES hurt other kids and that your logic doesn’t hold</p>
<p>if you take a spot, that is a spot someone else doesn’t have and probably got a rejection from, because these days a wait list is just a hair above a rejection in many cases</p>
<p>So yes it DOES hurt if you apply to 20…think of it this way, if Person A applies to 20, and so do tons of other people, very good chance person A will get rejected, so if others do what person A does, who thinks they have an advantage of applying to 20 schools, it in fact hurts them if others think they are just as clever</p>
<p>and please, applying to 20 schools is not the way to look for money…all that does is increase the # of applications, thereby creating a more likely chance of that person THEMSELVES being waitlisted or rejected…its not like on person is applying to 20 and everyone else is rational…it just feeds the frenzy and doesn’t do anyone much good</p>
<p>as for financial reason, applying to 20 is not smart, it is in fact a bit lazy if using the common application…by doing a bit of research before hand, a student can narrow down the list to a reasonable one…and if more students dd that, then the chances of getting into a school they REALLY want will be higher…</p>
<p>I, as a high school student, see the whole admission decisions as less than transparent. I believe I am competitive for admission to IVYs, but so many posts from last year’s decision threads have revealed apparent lack of connection between stats and acceptance/rejection. Until colleges publish a formula that helps us predict our chances and financial aid with some reliability, it is fair to allow us to apply to as many schools as we can, withouy us being called unethical. By the way, I thought colleges love it when a huge number of students apply because it helps their selectivity. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>(AdOfficer, I have read many of your posts and want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us.)</p>
<p>
My friends and I did fair amount of research and found schools we’d like to go, but we were unsure about our chances. There seems to be some mystery about how the minds of ADCOMs work. We don’t know what kind of research will help us with that. I think it is natural that we’d all apply to many more schools than is apparently needed, especially since CommonApp makes it easy and it is quite cheap to apply. What is a reasonable number of schools one should apply to?</p>
<p>I think that after reading some of the threads on this board, it is easy to understand why kids apply to multiple colleges… there really NO such thing as a SURE thing is college admissions. Many people fear that they will not get into any school… somewhat irrational if you include a “safety” school, but certainly not unheard of.</p>
<p>i posted on the other thread explaning why this practice is necessary at the very top boarding schools</p>
<p>The thing is, this sort of things is necessary at the most prestigious BS like andover, exeter, Choate, hotchkiss and such. Think about it… Every year we have 30% of the kids going to ivies…basically the top 50-60% are more or less admissible to the ultra competitive colleges anyway… and they deserve it anyway…they will most likely be at the top 10% at any other schools… but even though colleges take so many kids from us and know that most of the kids who apply are capable, there is still a max number, they have to take kids from other schools… diversity is important… So without this sort of “gaming” if you would like to call it… All the top 20% will get into all the collges that they apply to, screwing the rest of the kids over…while the other kids are more than capable to go anyway…but why do they care, because the school itself is a preslected group anyway, i mean, with an average SSAT of 93 percentile…(and SSAT itself is more self selective than SAT anyway, only the kids who apply to boarding schools take SSAT)…this is a way that the most prestigious boarding school can survive and continue to attract the talents from across the country. I was the first in my class before I went to Hotchkiss… and i knew i probably wont even make top 10% or 20% if I go there…but if I would be screwed in the process being in a much lower percentile, I wouldnt even have gone…but I knew that they have a much higher admit rate than any schools…even the kid way down the roster get into really selective colleges, thanks to our excellent college counselling office; that’s the reason I went, and I know that being in the top 30% now, I have as good a shot as I would have being at top 1% at my old public school</p>
<p>Adofficer, I have a few questions for you. Any suggestions for how an applicant should proceed if they go to a school where not many apply to the very selective northeastern schools and the guidance counselors make one call to a regional admission officer in the spring on the applicants behalf at each school they are appllying to? I am talking about a situation where the counselor would not have a relationship of the type your are talking about with the very prestigious boarding prep schools like Choate. Should the applicant write to and email the regional admission officer his or herself and try to develop their own repour with that person?
Also, what ways are there to let a school know you are interested if you have not applied early?</p>
<p>Here’s the problem…there is no formula we as admissions officers follow. There is no absolute way to 100% accurately predict your chances at a school…this is why having a “safety” is important. HOWEVER, students who frame their college search around their needs as a student and person and less around <em>prestige</em> are usually very good at predicting their chances at many places. If you are applying to Ivies, you should absolutely have a safety because, obviously, the odds are stacked against you - but don’t apply to a school you have absolutely no interest in - take your “safety search” seriously. Ifyou really want to know about the process though, ask an admissions officer at one of the colleges you are applying to! Will it answer all your questions? Probably not, because there are thousands of other students applying and we cannot predict what they will be like. However, it should clarify for you a lot of the big questions you may have. </p>
<p>It does stink that Ivies and others are so expensive, but keep in mind parents and students alike that we all make decisions in our lives. Don’t complain about having to “starve” to put your kid through college when you have two cars in the garage, cell phones, internet, equity in your home, take vacations, and live in areas that have a high cost of living. I cannot tell you the number of “middle class” parents I talk to on the phone year after year who cry poor, yet arrive on campus from Long Island or Boston or San Francisco or wherever to drop their kids off and they are in a Mercedes. The “middle class” parents out there who complain about the cost of higher education are in a much better position to pay for college than 85% of most Americans; I know it doesn’t seem that way, but this is the reality! </p>
<p>Many parents, however, are surprised - after actually applying for need-based aid - by how much they actually can get. If your family income is less than $150,000/year, you stand a very good chance of getting a lot of need-based money…Education is, unfortunately, not seen as a social good but as a personal one - if you are not willing to make the sacrifice to put your child through a “good” college, don’t complain about it. There are ways to make it work - while right now it might seem like a huge amount of money (and it is), borrowing money when you have the means to pay it back with a little interest month to month is a decision you can make. Is it nice to graduate college with no debt? Absolutely. Does $200/month really change your or your child’s standard of living? It shouldn’t if you are truly “middle class”.</p>
<p>There are kids with NOTHING out there busting their butts working and borrowing over $80k to go to colleges with no prestige or name recognition, and guess what? They don’t complain usually…I worked at a place like that and can personally attest to this - the only folks who moaned about financial aid were usually the parents of students of the highest means. I borrowed $40k to get through an Ivy…does that stink? Yeah. Am I starving now, working in education? No. And no one will ever be able to take my education away from me, ever. It’s an investment - one of the biggest of your lives…it is worth the debt, much more so than a car or vacation! It’s not something you are entitled to, but something worth sacrificing for!</p>
<p>While I certainly understand what you are saying, AdOfficer, I have to politely point out that there is a rather large section of the middle class that is suddenly finding itself in rather dire straits. There are many particulars I could share, but I do not care to lay my life bare before this board. However, suffice it to say that many middle class parents struggle due to the present state of the economy. I do know that there are people like the parents you described. Please realize, though, that there are also plenty of parents who really do have a tough time of it, even though they did all the right things financially over the years. For those of us who have worked our rears off over the years for companies that suddenly cut out pension plans and cut wages, the sting of being thought of as whiners is a bit hard to take. We have to do the best we can to try to make things work for our kids. This is not to excuse the ones who try to play the system … but please try to understand that not everyone is doing so.</p>
<p>Believe me, I know…my parents were in the same boat. I just don’t want you to give up hope until you <em>at least</em> get financial aid award letters. After that, there are several options available if you feel that the award is not sufficient enough for you and your family. It really brightens my day when students call me, thrilled that my institution is giving them way more financial aid than they had ever though they would qualify for…many schools do take cost of living into account when making up their awards. What is unfortunate is that it is not usually parents who are <em>truly</em> struggling who make complaints to us but rather well off parents who complain…we had one student last year try to get out of her ED contract because we offered her no financial aid…her parental income was $735,000/year…turned out she just wanted to go to BU (which, quite frankly, is not one of our peer institutions) because they gave her a full ride. </p>
<p>I do realize that not everyone is “playing the system,” but many are and it is quite disheartening. I just had to call up a student and tell her that she is no longer going to be considered for admission because she lied about her extracurricular involvements on the common application…we found out after I read her interview write-up, in which the interviewer provided very detailed information about her EC involvement and the time she spent on her activities. I called the school and they told me what she put on her common app. was impossible. I also had to call another student last week and do the same, but in that case, the student claimed to be Hispanic but was not…the only reason I even mentioned it to his guidance counselor (who happened to randomly call me to check on the receipt status of another student’s recs) was because he (the student) called himself “a skinny white boy” in his essay; the counselor was shocked that the kid identified as such as she knows him and his family very, very well. I’ve also run into a number of cases of wealthy families hiring very devious accountants who basically hide all their assets and income so that they can qualify for need-based financial aid…it’s really disgusting and happens far too often.</p>
<p>I know a student who is applying to Stanford, Princeton, and several other highly prestigious schools with absolutely no intention of going there. He already got into Georgetown SFS – his first choice – early action. He’s never visited Princeton, even though we live just a few hours’ drive away (more than realistic for a day trip), but he still bashes it whenever he has the chance, saying that students there are arrogant, pretentious, and wealthy – his interviewer gave off that impression, so of course it must be true of all Princeton students. He’s the president of the student government, which looks great, but the student government at my school doesn’t actually do anything – not that colleges would know, based on his application. His scores are lower than mine, but his GPA is stratospheric. Everyone keeps telling me it doesn’t affect my chances, but I find it difficult to believe that they’ll look at his ridiculously high grades and not find my (perfectly respectable) GPA a little bit pathetic. On paper, he’s a great applicant. In person, not so much.</p>
<p>I asked him, “If you hate those schools so much, why are you even applying?” His reply: “Because they’re Stanford and Princeton – what did you think?” </p>
<p>Because it isn’t as if anyone actually wants to go there or anything. Especially not me. Especially not for reasons other than the rankings. :mad:</p>
<p>^ The point of that story is that I’d love for some of those “anti-competitive” admissions practices to happen at my (private, rigorous, but not a boarding school and not a household name) high school. This student not only has no intention of attending those schools, but actively dislikes them. The other applicants from my school all have slightly lower (but still excellent!) grades, but would give a proverbial right arm to attend (and, in my slightly biased view, are probably more intelligent and less grade-grubbing). If this process were completely “fair”, who do you think should be admitted?</p>
<p>Camelia - take the reigns and make sure you let Princeton know in every way possible that you definitely want to go there. All schools except perhaps Harvard care about yield. Princeton does not want to accept anyone who they think will chose Stanford, Harvard or Yale over them. Bear in mind that there are no quotas. Princeton does not say we are only going to accept one or two from this high school and one applicant looks a little better so they will take him. They dont have to take anyone. If however they are leaning towards taking one of you, and he appears stronger they might decide to take you because they know you will come. I would do everything possible to let Princeton know you will go there.</p>
<p>^^^^^^
Believe me, Harvard cares about their yield! </p>
<p>It is unfortunate that people apply to colleges “just to see” if they can get in. A friend of mine in the admissions office at Harvard told me that a huge chunk of the kids who apply aren’t even close to being competetive for admission there, but they apply “just to see” - this should make some of you who really want to go there feel a little better about your chances if you are competitive academically However, there are a lot of kids out there who apply “just to see” who are academically competitive and, well, it is just silly. They are contributing to the increasing panic and competitiveness that surrounds college admission these day and, quite frankly, they annoy me. </p>
<p>camelia - best of luck - i’m sure you’ll end up some place spectacular</p>
<p>AdOfficer, it’s so helpful to have your input, thank you! If I may ask, I’m wondering what constitutes milking an SPS. I’ve taken 6th classes every term I could with teachers I love and admire. I babysit for 2 just to hang out with the family! There isn’t time for much more, but what more would you suggest?</p>
<p>One last question. I’d love to do School Year Abroad but many have told me you get lower grades in Europe. I want to enter a great IR program like Tufts’. Would this hurt or help me?</p>
<p>SYA is anything but a joke. You are thrust into another culture, speaking a foreign language and living with a family you’ve never met. It was an amazing challenge but amazingly rewarding!! Go!!! I’ve only heard, and personally found, that colleges admire those who choose to take this on.</p>
<p>Hmm, in defense of top tier students applying to second tier schools, I personally mostly intended to apply to ivy league schools, but because of the increasingly competitive and random nature of admissions I wasn’t nearly confident enough to think that i’d get into one for sure. I happened to be lucky enough to get into my top choice EA, but if i hadn’t i certainly would have applied to some schools below my top choices just so i’d be sure i could get in somewhere! For example, i would have applied to BU bc i could be reasonably sure of getting a lot of merit aid and bc i like boston. I didn’t appreciate that my applications to 6 ivy league schools would have worked against me bc BU asks you to list the other schools you’re applying to!</p>
<p>I have to admit that your stories are eye-opening, AdOfficer. I don’t know people like those you describe, so I forget that people can be so manipulative. It is hard to imagine, but obviously relatively common. I guess us regular folk who are willing to borrow, but would like to keep it to a non-overwhelming debt load, are probably not the thorn in the sides of admissions officers.</p>
<p>I agree the “just to see” applications are annoying, but so many people really do want to be able to say they got accepted to an ivy. I know it’s sad to need that validation, but these ARE teenagers! The best way I know to keep this to a minimum is the high cost of the apps for these most selective schools, as well as the extra essays required. While it won’t deter everyone, at least it helps cut down on apps to some extent. Applicants for whom the cost is truly an issue can always get a waiver. </p>
<p>A final thought: athletes are encouraged to shop around for the best deal when they are looking at colleges. Few seem to have a problem accepting this fact. Why shouldn’t a top student — say a Westinghouse winner with a perfect SAT score and tons of leadership-heavy ECs — be able to do the same? The schools benefit from the publicity a top athlete brings. Well, they also benefit from the publicity top students bring. I have read plenty of fact sheets listing how many at the college are this, won that, etc. The schools want what those top students bring, just like they want what those top athletes bring. And when signing day came last week … and some athletes went back on verbal commitments … the general consensus was that it was okay for the athlete to do what was best for him. For what it’s worth, my kid isn’t at that level, so it’s not a personal concern. Just food for thought!</p>
However, there are a lot of kids out there who apply “just to see” who are academically competitive and, well, it is just silly. They are contributing to the increasing panic and competitiveness that surrounds college admission these day and, quite frankly, they annoy me. </p>