DePaul Discussion

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
41

<p>burningbright…you are correct insofar as this field is rife with rejection…from the time you apply to these very selective college programs all the way through a career in the field. Yes, you have to endure rejections. </p>

<p>But when one enters an educational program, one should expect to be able to finish the schooling unless they are flunking out. I am not opposed to cutting someone who is flunking out. I’m an educator and have taught at five colleges. DePaul is cutting an arbitrary amount no matter what number of kids are succeeding or not. In my view, if a college accepts you, then they need to see you through to graduation, unless you are flunking out or not meeting a min. standard they have set to continue on. An education is not about rejecting you during your studies. They have ACCEPTED you. The point of rejection is at the time of admission, not during the schooling process (unless you are failing). The education is costly and it is a year of your life. MOST very well regarded college programs for acting do not cut in the manner that DePaul does (by number, if at all). They turn out great actors and some will make it and some will not because this field is, well, full of rejections. Even some who graduate DePaul will make it and some will not. The industry will decide. DePaul’s job is to give you an education that you are PAYING for. </p>

<p>Also, if a student has to audition at other schools during freshmen year, then their attention cannot be 100% focused on their studies (I know what the audition circuit is like and the time it takes to do these). That is not in the student’s or the program’s best interests. The focus should be on learning in the program and progressing. </p>

<p>And why should an arbitrary number be cut? How is person #27 who is cut all that different than student #25 who gets to stay? A big difference? I can’t imagine it. </p>

<p>An educational institution’s mission is to educate their students and not to decide who to keep and who not to keep or who they think will succeed or who will not. They ought to keep and educate all those who are making the grade or standards to be in the program. An education is not the time for rejection…rejection comes at other junctures…such as admissions into the program, getting cast in college productions, getting into a showcase, getting an agent, getting cast professionally.</p>

<p>By the way, I have a kid who is a senior in a BFA program and she is ready to deal with rejections and has been her whole life, along with successes, and so it is not as if she cannot handle rejection. But she would not apply to a cut program like DePaul. You are comfortable with it and that is cool, truly. But those who are not comfortable with educational programs cutting the way DePaul does, doesn’t mean those actors/students are not prepared for, or can’t handle rejection. They don’t believe in the philosophy or policy behind cut programs, particularly ones by number, that’s all.</p>

42

<p>AMEN!!! I agree with you 100%. I do not agree with DePauls cut system!!!</p>

43

<p>My two sense: </p>

<p>I think actors should get use to rejection, because they will get far more rejections then Yes’s. BUT, I think it is different when it comes to an education. There not there for an audition, but to be trained. It is much more I think though. You shouldn’t get cut after you paid all that money and you should be able to finish. They went there for an education and that’s why they are there. You shouldn’t have to start all over at a new program. If they had only 26 spots available, then only let 26 freshman start the program. I think the students know about the cut program, but they don’t think it will ever happen to them. I know I don’t have experience in BFA’s, but that’s just an honest opinion from a teenager.</p>

44

<p>I believe that, eventually, DePaul is going to do away with the cut system in the same way that Carnegie Mellon and even Juilliard – JUILLIARD! – has done. At the auditions last year for Juilliard, they spent a lot of time talking about how, when a new director came on board, he brought with him a new point of view about the old cut system: namely, he realized that the cut system destroyed moral and the camaraderie among the “years” (first years, second and so on) that is so vital to the best of actor training. We were told by some fourth years (who talked to the parents who were waiting) that anticipating that cut was so pressure-filled that it was difficult for the kids to see past it. It made them afraid to look too far into the future. In short, the powers that be realized that the cut system was contraindicated to what they were trying to accomplish with the kids.</p>

45

<p>Acting involves taking risks. I can’t imagine feeling free to fully take risks in class if you have to concern yourself that one “wrong move” might get you on the bottom 50% of the list that ends up cut. </p>

<p>Further, acting in a classroom involves collaboration. Students have to rehearse scenework outside of class and so forth. Again, I can’t imagine the competition that a cut system would bring out, versus a sense of collaboration, cooperation, sharing, supporting, and nurturing that exists without a cut policy. When half the class will be cut, there must be a sense of “survival of the fittest” and that has to permeate the classroom work and the social fabric of that group. Who will be left standing? It is like Survivor!</p>

46

<p>Again out of fairness, here are quotes from a DePaul student and an actual faculty member to offset the views of people who have never been there and yet insist that the environment could not be collaborative and congenial …

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/223433-depaul-university.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/223433-depaul-university.html&lt;/a&gt;

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/225346-welcome-new-college-rep-thetheatreschool-depaul.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/225346-welcome-new-college-rep-thetheatreschool-depaul.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>DISCLAIMER: My own position is that a numbers-based cut is unethical and could be nothing other than a means to accumulate money from the lower classes to fund the upperclass work. Doctorjohn, who once taught in a numbers-based cut program, wrote an excellent exposition on this type of policy as he sees it. [Here</a> is the link](<a href=“Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”>Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos) I have yet to see a reasonble argument offered anywhere to dispute his conclusions. </p>

<p>I do believe, however, that a professional training program should reserve the right to cut students not only for slacking, tardiness, bad attitude, and “flunking out,” but for simply showing an inability to keep up with the rest of the class. This work is both cumulative and collaborative and it would not be fair to the rest of the class to keep students whose lack of progress holds everyone else back no matter how hard they try. Unfortunately, it can be extremely difficult if not impossible to catch up once one falls behind. Moreover, there simply isn’t room in the smaller programs to hold the students back into a lower class until they “get it” unless the problem comes as the result of medical reasons or some major personal trauma such as the death of a familty member, etc. It wouldn’t be fair to the next class of auditionees to reserve a spot in an already highly competitive admissions pool for someone who has already shown he cannot keep up in his present class. It’s a sad thing when it happens, but there are situations where I believe it might be necessary.</p>

<p>In past cut discussions, I have also seen a complaint that some students who have been cut were maintaining passing grades and even 'A’s in their classwork. I believe it has been explained that that is for the written work with the failure coming in actually putting that work into practice in which case it becomes pass/fail. I personally believe this is preferable to flunking the student for all his work because 'D’s and 'F’s on the student’s transcript could completely wreck his ability to get into another good academic school and futhermore ruin his chances to get into a good graduate school. I don’t think it would be a good thing to ruin a bright person’s chances to move onto other things because he has shown an inability to grow beyond a certain point as an actor.</p>

<p>I guess this makes me the equivalent of a political “centrist” on this issue. I tick off both wings! LOL</p>

47

<p>fish, it is definitely fair and important to hear from people who actually attend, I agree with you there. </p>

<p>Even if the students are one big happy family and collaborate…I know some kids who attended another cut program and the atmosphere generally speaking was different than the one in a non-cut program. There is something about the “half of you will be gone next year” that adds something to the aura either personally per student or collectively, than if that elephant was not in the room. It is only natural. </p>

<p>As far as grades…I don’t know DePaul’s grading system. At my own kid’s BFA program, the studio classes are graded and there is an extrensive rubric and many narrative comments. The grades do not pertain to written work.</p>

48

<p>NotMamaRose, I happen to know for a fact that many students DO audition for other schools in case they don’t make the cut. I know a great number who were in first year 07-08 (which would have been my year if I had gone to college straight from high school) and they all (all the people I know that is, not to say that the whole year did) auditioned for CMU, NYU, BU, USC, and various others. It is common that first year students do audition for other schools however not all students do.</p>

<p>In regard to the British schools… I am currently studying in the UK at the Drama Centre in London and so I know first hand that they operate in what I consider to be a SIMILAR way (notice how I didn’t say the SAME). the conservatory (LAMDA and I believe RADA operate similarly) accepts its foundation year (50-60 students usually) who all go in with the hopes of attending the BFA program (the school system here is different and as many of the foundation year students don’t meet the min. age requirement of 18 or don’t have enough experience, training, etc. can’t go straight into the 3 year BFA) and that entire year is like an audition for the BFA program, (you don’t have to do the foundation year program to get into the BFA but you’re chances are MUCH better if you do) but they only take about 20 into the BFA acting program, so many don’t make the cut. They spend the time and money on that year, many realize a career in acting isn’t for them, many audition for multiple conservatories’ 3 year programs (although they have the best chance of getting in to the one they are already studying at) and many simply don’t make it. So, the situation many of my peers are in now is similar to that of first year students at DePaul. (I’m not auditioning for UK conservatories… for the record, as they are three times as expensive for international students and with this lovely recession, it’s not a viable option, plus I miss life on the other side of the Atlantic after 2 years in europe)</p>

<p>This is also not dissimilar to the way many BFA acting conservatories in Canada (where I’m from) operate. You audition for the BFA acting course out of high school (or whatever) and are accepted but the first year curriculum is much more general theatre training (like at DePaul) and it isn’t until 2nd year that you find out if you make it into the BFA acting program (acting ‘stream’ it’s sometimes called) if you don’t make it, just like at DePaul, you’re not kicked out of the University, you can pick another major or usually you can remain a theatre studies major. (I believe Emerson does something similar but after sophomore year, although I’m not 100% sure…)</p>

<p>fishbowl you make a lot of valid points in your latest post. There are a lot of other opinions expressed in this discussion that I don’t feel the need to counter with a rebuttal. You are all more than entitled to your opinions and they are completely valid in that respect. I was just a little bit frustrated that for the most part this thread really hasn’t been a “discussion” but rather a hate-fest (for lack of a better term). Which is fine, I just feel that it is kind of a moot point. The program obviously isn’t well suited to many of you/your children so you’re/they’re better off somewhere else. I apologize if my earlier comment “I think anyone who shies away from DePaul because of [the cut] doesn’t deserve to go there anyway” bothered anyone, it was not worded very adeptly. I simply meant that DePaul’s cut program is a reality, and if you’re not prepared to face it, you belong at in a different program.</p>

49

<p>There ARE some colleges here in the US that admit you first as a BA and then you must audition after a year or two to get into a BFA track. I prefer that to the system DePaul has.</p>

50

<p>

I don’t attend a cut program, but I’ve felt the same frustration from reading here over the years and actually got into something of a row over it last summer. It’s always the same often valid points that are made; but each time DePaul, U Arizona or any other program showing anything resembling a cut policy comes up, that’s all that gets discussed and I feel any information about the actual training offered as well as other positive aspects those schools might offer gets squelched.</p>

51

<p>I DO think that people feel strongly one way or the other about cut programs. However, many acknowledge, including myself, that DePaul has an excellent reputation for really great actor training. For that matter, CCM has an excellent reputation for MT training. </p>

<p>Attending a cut program is a matter of choice and for some, it is fine and that’s OK too!</p>

52

<p>I don’t like cut programs. I am glad my D chose not to audition for any schools that had them. HOWEVER, schools should be able to operate their programs in whatever way they believe will yield the best results. A college education is a product with different features, benefits, and costs – we consumers can choose to buy that product or not. It is absolutely required that schools be completely straightforward with students about how their program works – the stark reality – so that all students go in with eyes wide open. They may think it will never happen to them and choose to ignore it. But under those circumstances, they cannot say that they weren’t aware. If they choose to attend such a program - so be it. Buyer beware! In a free market system, this “product” will continue to be offered as long as there are consumers willing to buy – and there clearly are. Possibly the remaining cut programs will change when they truly start losing out on the most talented students because they won’t even audition there.</p>

53

<p>IMHopeful…I really agree with your post #52! It really is a choice for the consumer/student and each college can offer what they wish and whatever policies they wish and hopefully be very upfront about these and then hopefully all consumers do their homework to make an informed decision. </p>

<p>As far as talented students not auditioning at cut programs such as DePaul…my feeling is that such college programs do not have a dirth of appllicants (neither does CCM MT either). However, I do know many highly talented kids who opted not to apply to such programs due to the cut policy and so these programy DO lose some who won’t apply for this reason. That still leaves plenty applying! ;)</p>

54

<p>I don’t think it’s fair to say that when the subject of DePaul (or U of Arizona, etc.) comes up, no one has anything nice to say. I think most people on this board acknowledge quite freely that DePaul’s training program is very strong and that that is what makes it attractive to the students who apply/audition for it each year. As I said, I know two kids who are really, really talented actors who are there now, and both had other choices for their BFAs. Each had his/her own reasons for choosing DePaul, and each of them knew about the cut before going in.</p>

<p>But I do think it is fair for people to discuss the cut, their feelings about it and its reason for existing. The cut is one of the first things that comes up when people discuss DePaul, after all, so it’s relevant. It’s something to consider and to think about.</p>

<p>My question about it is the same question I have had since I began posting on this board several years ago, namely:</p>

<p>It’s clear how the cut system benefits DePaul (as fishbowl said above, it’s a moneymaker and plus, it allows the powers that be at DePaul to spend a year picking the “best” kids). What is not clear, to me at least, is how the cut system benefits the *students." I guess you could posit that if you are at DePaul and not cut, then you benefit by knowing you are one of the ones that the faculty believes has the right stuff. However, I would imagine that if the camaraderie within each ensemble is as close and vibrant as I would imagine it is, a lot of people will end up very sad about seeing their friends go. And if you are cut, well, you are likely (note I used the word “likely”) to be left scrambling to figure out where to go, what to do, and so on.</p>

<p>burning, a question for you: You say that kids at DePaul that you know did got out during the fall and winter of their freshmen year to audition for other schools. I would guess they did that at Chicago Unifieds, because otherwise they would have had to be absent from studio and so forth. So, how did they handle the questions that the auditors form, say, CMU must have had about why first semester students at DePaul wanted to transfer? Surely the auditors form CCM, CMU, NCSA and so on are aware of the cut system, so I would guess that those schools’ auditors already know that the kids are auditioning as a fallback. To me, this would make the other schools less likely to offer a coveted place in their classes to someone who is only seeking a place “in case.”</p>

<p>If I am wrong – and it wouldn’t be the first time! – please correct me. When my D was researching BFAs, she was very impressed by the materials that came from DePaul and as she went along, heard many wonderful things about the training. In the end, she chose not to audition for DePaul for various reasons, including the cut. So understand that this is all purely hypothetical. :)</p>

55

<p>I also have wondered how the DePaul freshmen can go out and audition for other colleges without missing class time. Chicago Unifieds only cover certain colleges, not all. Further, I think NMR raises another concern and that is when you attend an audition for another college to transfer and they see you are a current DePaul student, they will ask the common question asked of any transfer students from any college… Why do you want to transfer? What do you say? I only want to transfer if I am cut? Do you make up a reason for really intending to transfer? And since these other schools know about the major cuts at DePaul, do they want to gamble on a student who may not even be transferring after all and only is applying just in case they are cut?</p>

56

<p>I think people like Depaul, but not the cut system. I think it has nothing to do with the quality of the program, but how Depaul makes the system. I personally wouldn’t want to go to Depaul just for that reason. I wouldn’t want to be cut after one year and then start the process all over again. I would want to stay in one program and not go around to every program out there.</p>

57

<p>NotMamaRose, many of the students I know did audition at the unifieds but also did some auditions outside of them, on weekends or over the 6 week winter break DePaul has between fall quarter ending before Thanksgiving and and the first week of January when winter quarter begins. As someone who applied to some schools as a transfer (and also international) student this year, I know how accommodating schools can be when it comes to auditions. (NCSA auditioned me on New Years Eve for god sakes). And students transfer from on college acting program to another all the time, and yes the auditors/faculty at the top BFA schools know about DePaul’s cut system and know that students audition from there for that reason, but also students audition to transfer because they’re not sure the program is right for them, and for many other reasons. </p>

<p>And in response to ‘To me, this would make the other schools less likely to offer a coveted place in their classes to someone who is only seeking a place “in case.”’ you may be right, but if you think about it, a freshman applicant to say, CMU is mostly likely not just applying to CMU, they are most likely applying to NYU, BU, and a myriad of others so what’s to say that the DePaul transfer student doesn’t have just as much chance of accepting their place (if they’re offered one) as the freshman applicant who may also get into 5 other programs… PLUS many schools, CMU included, would make a transfer student start over in freshman year and that transfer student who’s already done a year at DePaul is most likely going to be better prepared for the rigors of the training at CMU than someone straight from high school.</p>

<p>Also as a transfer student myself, who is two years out of high school now, 19 and has studied and acted professionally quite a bit since I graduated, I know that I am better equipped to enter a BFA program than I was two years ago, and the faculty at the schools I’ve applied to seam to know that too based on the caliber of schools I’ve been accepted to this year versus when I was 17. </p>

<p>SO this may be true to of a DePaul transfer student, it’s possible that CMU might have been his or her first choice when he/she was auditioning as a high school senior. but may not have been accepted and may have gone to their second choice, DePaul, but then when they auditioned as a transfer student “just in case” they may be accepted this time because they’re older, wiser, better trained, more mature (etc.) and then they have the option of transferring to their first choice… it happens more than you might expect,</p>

58

<p>burningbright…it is true that when a freshman applies, the colleges do not know for sure that the applicant will attend if accepted since the applicant will conceivably have more than one acceptance. But colleges DO care about YIELD. They try to ascertain a student’s interest in their program and if they feel that student would attend as they want to get the highest yield possible. With a DePaul potential transfer applicant who is applying ONLY as a back up in case they are cut from DePaul but may not transfer EVER to any school, the college cannot put a lot ot confidence in that the student may attend if accepted. In both the freshman applicant scenario I presented (or even a regular transfer applicant0 and the DePaul transfer applicant scenario (applicant auditioning just in case they could be cut from DePaul), there is risk in accepting the student and no guarantee the student will attend. HOWEVER, the risk to the college is GREATER for the DePaul transfer applicant who not only may have several acceptances like the other freshmen or transfer applicants but may not even be EVER transferring since he/she will stay at their current school if not cut. I would imagine a school will surely weigh the odds and proceed accordingly with the risk factor if they care about yield. It surely cannot help a student to be in this scenario as an applicant. They can’t truly say they will attend if accepted where at least SOME of the other applicants (either freshmen or regular transfer ones) that have the school as a first choice will indicate that they will attend if accepted and they will be going to a new college in the coming year. </p>

<p>The other points you bring up about transfer students being older and having training under their belt (ex., a DePaul transfer applicant) are true, but that is true of transfers from other BFA programs and so on too. A DePaul transfer applicant is a risk that he/she is not truly a real applicant in the first place and may never really go to ANY new college. </p>

<p>I cannot imagine going to college and hoping to stay at that college but all the while, having to spend time, energy, thought, and money toward transferring and auditioning just in case I can’t stay. It is one thing to transfer because you WANT to. But if you want to stay, you WILL have to put some attention and money toward leaving if you attend DePaul. It won’t be a choice. That time and money would be better spent directed toward their own college, DePaul, in my opinion.</p>

59

<p>Soozie, CCM said point blank that there are no planned cuts any longer. They lose students by attrition, and when they do not pass their reevaluations on an individual basis, but there is not a “cut” for a number. (This is the same thing we were told at BoCo.)</p>

<p>Do they have planned cuts anyway???</p>

<p>(I am trying to send a pm to you, btw, but did not realize how popular you are—your box is full :slight_smile: )</p>

60

<p>Skipsmom, CCM did not cut by number so much but they did cut, for years. This year, they have changed their policy and you’d have to read it quite closely. It still sounds like a cut but it is definitely a new process/policy. It is not a cut by number but it is a cut of some sort. Every year, kids are cut from CCM. It is not the same as DePaul which has a set number they will cut no matter how many are talented enough to stay. And the percentage of students cut is not as great as at DePaul. </p>

<p>As far as the PM, yes, you have tried about a dozen times to send me one and my box is full and I got an email telling me of each of your many attempts. My PM box fills up constantly and I cannot keep up with it or clear it out. I do not like using it as I already have one personal email account, and two work email accounts and it is just one more account to check each day. I MUCH prefer to be contacted via email and not PM. You can click right on my member name and choose the “send email” not “send PM” option. After several of your attempts to PM me, I clicked on YOUR name and sent you an email with this general message. Did you not get it? Maybe the email you registered with on CC is not your current one, I do not know. Then, I cleared my PM box to allow in one PM, after I noticed you tried me seveal MORE times after I had already emailed you asking you to send me an email rather than a PM. So, your PM HAS now gone through that one time (the one you sent at 2:07 PM). I have not had a chance to respond to you yet (though keep getting notifications that you are still trying to send a PM even though one did go through). I get MANY MANY MANY emails and PMs from people on CC every day asking for individualized advice. I cannot possibly field all of these PMs and emails as it would be a full time volunteer job. I already put in many hours per day volunteering/participating on CC trying to help many at one time. It is not a job, but just to be kind. But college counseling is what I ALSO do in my REAL job and so I have to save most of my time that is devoted to individualized help for the students and parents who are working with me and to put that first. I will try to find time to get back to you if I can but can’t do it immediately.</p>