"Destroy America" -- H.S. teacher fired for assignment

yourworld · November 22, 2006, 9:49pm

Then why hasn’t it made a difference ?

The baddies are abound, in-control. Why hasn’t it make a difference ?

lealdragon · November 22, 2006, 10:07pm

“I can (if you were really interested) show you HUNDREDS of Muslim organizations, agencies, scholars, and imams who quite publicly condemned the events of 911, among Sunnis, Shias, and Sufis alike, even among the governments (including Iran - with a HUGE candlelight march and vigil in Tehran’s Muhseni Square on September 18, 2001, probably larger than any single such action held in the U.S.), and in virtually every country.”

That’s true.

HH: There are also MANY Christian groups who have publicly condemned the homophobia and judgmentalism of the ‘fundamentalists.’ jesusisaliberal and Sojourners come immediately to mind, and I know there are many more because during the election I was a member of a couple of liberal Christian discussion groups. They do exist!

I just haven’t seen the religious ‘right’ condemning the bigotry, any more than we’ve seen the fanatical Muslims condemn the terrorism.

SOME Christians are fundamentalists, and SOME Muslims are hateful.

NOT all Christians are fundamentalists, just like not all Muslims are hateful.

kluge · November 22, 2006, 10:16pm

Lealdragon, Hereshoping has indicated that she finds the term “fundie” to be derogatory or offensive. Damn me for being “politically correct” if you will, but I suggest that you use some other term which doesn’t needlessly offend. Let people take exception to the content of your statements, if need be, without having them put off balance by the terminology.

I don’t recall ever seeing the term “fundie” before this thread, so I have no personal opinion about whatever secondary meaning it might have. But simple consideration of others preferences in terminology, as long as it’s not misleading or offensive to others, is preferable, in my opinion.

<a href=“Added%20after%20Lealdragon%20edited%20the%20term%20out”>I</a> Somehow I don’t think that this example of “PC” will generate the scorn usually used to condemn the practice.)*

ldmom06 · November 22, 2006, 10:18pm

I’m a Christian and extremism of any kind makes me anxious…when religious extremists spew their nonsense, my ears hear nothing but noise. And I would be equally uncomfortable with a fundamentalist Christian as a hateful Muslim.

Fortunately, in the grand scheme of things, neither represents the majority, despite their claims otherwise.

btw…crossed posts there. I think lealdragon was just trying to make a point, not trying to offend. And I do note that people define extremism in different measures, so I hope I’m not offending anyone either. I just think that harsh, rigid rhetoric of any kind is destructive.

lealdragon · November 22, 2006, 10:20pm

kluge, you are absolutely correct. In fact, I normally never use that term at all, for that reason. I used it this time in response to hh’s own post in which she herself used it. I was attempting to make the point that she herself was essentially arguing in favor of the very prejudices that we’ve been trying to argue against.

But, it was still in bad taste and I appreciate your pointing it out to me. I apologize for responding in kind and using that term. Sorry if I offended anyone. I have edited the offending post.

lealdragon · November 22, 2006, 10:21pm

“equally uncomfortable with a fundamentalist Christian as a hateful Muslim.”

Exactly! Wow, thanks so much! At last, someone GETS IT!! It’s not about Christians or Muslims - it’s about fanaticism! Wherever it is found!

kluge · November 22, 2006, 10:31pm

I don’t recall hearing about any Muslim involvement in “the troubles” in Ireland. Count me in the “anti-extremist of any variety” vote.

lealdragon · November 22, 2006, 10:36pm

Yeah, why is it that there is so much scorn about pc? Isn’t the intention to show respect and consideration? I don’t get why something with such good intentions is scorned.

yourworld · November 22, 2006, 10:55pm

“equally uncomfortable with a fundamentalist Christian as a hateful Muslim.”

I don’t recall fundamentalist christian in this century kill people in cold blood, fly airplanes into buildings, deny another country’s right to exist. It is a terrible mistake to equate fundamental christianity with the profanity that is Islam.

lealdragon · November 23, 2006, 12:05am

Fundamentalist Christianity has killed plenty of people over the centuries. Right now, it’s not as extreme as fundamentalist Islam, but the root mentality is much the same “I am right and you are wrong.”

Example: This guy at work (a fundamentalist Christian) told me he thinks ALL the Iraqis, including all the civilians (including children) should be killed because they ‘are all going to ‘hell’ anyway.’

Granted, this is just one guy. But when I hear people referring to a large segment of the world’s population as ‘the unredeemed’ and ‘condemned to hell’ that is rather disconcerting.

They are just different degrees of the same elitist mentality.

StickerShock · November 23, 2006, 8:02am

lealdragon, come on. That’s disingenuous!!! You know darn well HH used the term & put it in quotes because she was referencing the double standard you & Allmusic have used when discussing Muslim violence vs. fundamentalist intolerence. You LOVE that term & have used it consistently on other threads. It is obviously meant as an insult. HH was making a good point: If the Kearny teacher’s story had been the original post, I doubt you’d be jumping to his defense, reminding us all that it was a lone example, and not representative of all fundamentalists.

Moral relativism at its finest. The fundamentalists aren’t beheading Chistians in Indonesia. I find beheadings more “disconcerting” than being subjected to a lecture. At least I’ll walk away alive & might even find some amusement in the subject matter.

mini · November 23, 2006, 12:20pm

“I just haven’t seen the religious ‘right’ condemning the bigotry, any more than we’ve seen the fanatical Muslims condemn the terrorism.”

I’m glad to see that you don’t consider the Iranian government, religious leaders, imams, and the hundreds of thousands of Iranians that turned out to condemn the 911 bombings fanatical Muslims. (That is a sign of progress.)

UCLAri · November 23, 2006, 12:30pm

This may be due to the fact that most Western nations respect an incredibly strong divide between church and state, effectively limiting potential for “fundamental” Christian involvement.

It’s isolated, but the IRA has done some pretty nasty things, and the Irish aren’t NOT Christian, so…

lealdragon · November 23, 2006, 2:38pm

“double standard you & Allmusic have used when discussing Muslim violence vs. fundamentalist intolerence. You LOVE that term & have used it consistently on other threads.”

That’s BS!

<ol>
<li>I have made it abundantly clear that I condemn ANY violence.</li>
<li>I have NEVER, EVER, EVER defended Muslim violence in any way! In fact, I have never even discussed Muslims ANYWHERE on this entire thread. Are you confusing me with someone else? Please get your facts straight before making such outrageous accusations! I defy you to find any quotes by me in which I defended ANY violence!!!</li>
<li>I have NEVER used the term ‘fundy’ or ‘fundie’ ANYWHERE on this thread, until this last post. I HAVE used the term ‘fundamentalist’ but that is not the term in question and no fundamentalist has ever indicated to me that it is a derogatory term. They use themselves. So, please get your facts straight. Fundamentalist, I have used.
Fundie/fundy I NEVER used until this recent thread, and it was in error, and I IMMEDIATELY corrected it when it was pointed out to me. HH, otoh, has called me a bigot just because I shared some horror stories of prejudice directed at me! And has never apologized. Yet you have the audacity to criticize me??? Have you even read any of my posts, or are you just lumping me in with everyone else you disagree with and ASSUMING that I said those things?</li>
<li>It is true that Christians have not killed DIRECTLY in this century, save for a few isolated instances of blowing up abortion clinics, and perhaps it could be argued that the 150,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS (see the recent Lancet report) and the thousands of American soldiers have been killed as a result of the religious right putting bush in office. But, I am not even talking about that. I am talking about the same type of mentality that existed back in the Dark Ages and even more recently during the Salem Witch Trials, in which fundamentalist Christianity had risen to such a fever pitch that they killed anyone whom they deemed a ‘heretic.’ It is that mentality that I see DEVELOPING in this country today, when ‘some of them’ go around saying that people should DIE because they are not ‘Christian’!!! I think people need to WAKE UP and stop this craziness BEFORE it develops to the degree in which people DO get killed for their beliefs! BEFORE this country turns into a theocracy! Our rights of Habea Corpus have already been taken away. If ANY extremists are in power, they can use this lack of rights to imprison or even kill ANYONE they think is ‘satanic.’ Can you not see that it’s not such a stretch? Don’t wait until it happens.</li>
<li>Again, get your facts straight. I am against ANY violence and ANY extremism. I made that very clear, if you had bothered to read my posts. I am deeply insulted that you dared to imply that I somehow approve of the Muslim violence. It is OBVIOUS that the Muslim violence is FAR worse, FAR more FANATICAL than anything we are seeing in this country. I mean, duh!!! How dare you twist my words SO MUCH!!! Next time read the person’s posts before you make such outlandish and FALSE accusations!</li>
<li>I NEVER jumped to Kearny’s defense. I find it intolerable and horrible.</li>
</ol>

lealdragon · November 23, 2006, 3:43pm

Re: my previous post. I got the name wrong. I thought Kearny was the Muslim teacher who did the reprehensible thing. I would not jump to the defense of any reprehensible act, whether Christian or Muslim.

For you to imply that I somehow defended the Muslim teacher (the one this thread is about) is completely reprehensible!

In fact, I HAVE defended the Christians who are not judgmental. Why are you ignoring my post #22? I defended Christians. I said quite clearly that NOT ALL Christians are judgmental and hypocritical, just like NOT ALL Muslims are violent. I have also acknowledged, numerous times, that both peaceful and hateful people are to be found in both religions. It’s just a matter of degree. I have repeatedly tried to make the point that it is the EXTREME HATE that is dangerous, regardless of where it is found.

But you, SS, insist on reducing my words to a simplistic ‘We are good they are bad’ mentality. Can’t you see, it is about the BEHAVIORS, not the label one puts on oneself. Hate is hate. Violence is violence. Regardless of where it is found.

I also resent it when people such as SS right away start implying that anyone who tries to reasonably see both sides of an issue, is automatically somehow in favor of terrorism.

That is just so totally FALSE!

C’mon, SS, use a little of that college-educated brain. Do you really believe that those of us who are freaked out about the loss of civil liberties in our OWN country would honestly condone them elsewhere? Do you really believe that those of us who are concerned about people in our OWN country being extremist would somehow embrace the extremism of Muslims?

That is so totally illogical and outrageous!

The reason we are trying to get people to wake up about the DIRECTION THE FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE GOING IN is that we are HORRIFIED by the extreme Muslims!!! and we don’t want to see the same thing happen here!!! We are trying to get people to WAKE UP BEFORE it gets to that point!

Think it couldn’t happen here? Think again. Look what happened in Germany. You think US citizens are too smart and sophisticated to let it get to that point? Think again. Do some reading on psychological tests given to US citizens who did ATROCIOUS things in a lab when they thought it was for the ‘common good.’ Like torturing people whom they were told had done some bad thing. (Surely you’ve heard of these experiments? The lab subjects were volunteer actors and they didn’t really get tortured, but they thought they were.) Like other examples of normally ‘good’ people doing cruel things when they were under the influence of the ‘herd’ mentality. This is well documented stuff. Read Psychology magazines, for starters.

I am concerned that there is a HUGE herd mentality developing in this country, under the banner of religious fundamentalism. When my Christian friends tell me that they voted for bush because their pastor told them to, and they admitted that they never even CONSIDERED any of the issues themselves, but just voted the way they were told, I am concerned.

A country with a majority of sheeple controlled by a very small group of fanatics is a very scary thing indeed. Just look what’s happening in Iraq.

lealdragon · November 23, 2006, 4:00pm

Correction: #3 in post #34 should read ‘in this forum’ - I have never used the term ‘fundie/fundy’ (until the single corrected post) OR defended violence in ANY thread ANYWHERE ON THIS ENTIRE FORUM and how dare you imply that I did.

Also, I gave examples of Christian groups who ARE speaking out against the Christian fundamentalist extremism. In other threads, I also highly praised Pat Buchanan’s book ‘Where the Right Went Wrong’ as an example of someone who is a TRUE hardcore CONSERVATIVE whom I HIGHLY RESPECT! I have also mentioned the new Christian environmentalist movement, of which I am a part and about which I am very excited!

I have repeatedly given examples of GOOD things in Christianity. I wish SS and HH could see past their blinders and quit thinking in such ‘us against them’ terms. At the very least, do not assume that others think in those terms.

hereshoping · November 24, 2006, 1:10pm

lealdragon: I can see you are truly perplexed by what you feel is my ill-will toward you. May I suggest you look closely at your phrase “recovering Catholic.” You seem to be clueless as to how offensive that is. And that was just one of your many insulting comments about Catholicism.

Likewise, the term “fundy.” I am not a fundamentalist (although in many of your statements you and others seem to lump Catholics and fundamentalists together into the “Religious Right”), and I took no personal offense to the word. However, I think it’s extremely dangerous when we begin to demonize ANY group of people in the way the term “fundy” implies.

You can look back at the <for evangelicals,=“” supporting=“” israel=“” is=“” “god’s=”" foreign=“” policy"=“”> thread to see how the term “fundy” was used.</for>

Finally, the thought occurred to me last night that I would prefer any day being lectured to by a fundamentalist about heaven and hell, which at least references a more powerful force than he/she, than by a “well-meaning” liberal who has all the answers based on their personal individual experiences and conclusions alone. :)

Shodan_X · November 24, 2006, 1:22pm

That’s just…odd.

lealdragon · November 24, 2006, 1:54pm

“your phrase “recovering Catholic.” You seem to be clueless as to how offensive that is. And that was just one of your many insulting comments about Catholicism.”

I use that phrase to describe how I view my experience with Catholicism. This is MY experience. I have never insulted YOU and in fact I have said that if you are happy with your faith, I am HAPPY for YOU. If you are insulted by someone describing THEIR OWN EXPERICENCE when it has NOTHING to do with YOU personally, then that is YOUR problem. I think you get insulted too easily. Really, it’s just MY experience and NEVER was any of it directed at YOU.

“…the term “fundy.” I am not a fundamentalist (although in many of your statements you and others seem to lump Catholics and fundamentalists together into the “Religious Right”), and I took no personal offense to the word. However, I think it’s extremely dangerous when we begin to demonize ANY group of people in the way the term “fundy” implies.”

You are being unfair here. I NEVER used that term until a response to YOUR post in which you used it. I used it IN ERROR and immediately CORRECTED it AND APOLOGIZED. So it is entirely unfair for you to imply that I have been using it repeatedly to ‘demonize’ an entire group of people. I have also gone out of my way to reiterate, again and again, that I was only sharing my experiences and in no way do I think ALL Christians/Catholics are a certain way.

I resent how you ignore most of my posts in favor of DISTORTING a few of them.

“You can look back at the <for evangelicals,=”" supporting=“” israel=“” is=“” “god’s=”" foreign=“” policy"=“”> thread to see how the term “fundy” was used."</for>

That’s BS!!! I know I never used that term! Maybe SOMEONE ELSE did and you thought it was me. If it was me, prove it! Provide a link! If I used that term myself, and don’t remember, I will publicly apologize.

“Finally, the thought occurred to me last night that I would prefer any day being lectured to by a fundamentalist about heaven and hell, which at least references a more powerful force than he/she, than by a “well-meaning” liberal who has all the answers based on their personal individual experiences and conclusions alone.”

When have I ever lectured you??? All I have done is share my own experiences and opinions. Am I not allowed to do that? Ya know, you could just refrain from reading my posts if you don’t like my opinions. Anyway, I NEVER claimed to have all the answers! And I DO have the right to draw my own conclusions FOR MYSELF. My only complaint all along has been that Christians are unwilling to let me draw my own conclusions, and THAT is what I have a problem with! I don’t care what THEY conclude - it only bothers me when they give people like me a hard time just because we have different conclusions! (and I made it clear that I was referring mostly to the born-agains, NOT Catholics. Again, you obviously aren’t even bothering to read my posts. I actually defended Catholics - I said that in all honesty NO CATHOLIC HAS EVER BOTHERED ME ABOUT MY PERSONAL FAITH. THEY HAVE BEEN RESPECTFUL. IT WAS THE BORN-AGAINS WHO DID. I DEFENDED THE CATHOLICS AND SAID VERY CLEARLY THAT THE PROBLEMS I HAD WITH CATHOLICISM WERE AS A CHILD, AND THAT THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED A LOT SINCE THEN, AND I AM HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

Why don’t you at least get your facts straight before attacking me?

OK, I just did a search on the ‘Israel’ thead for both ‘fundie’ and ‘fundy’ and guess what?

ZERO results found for ‘fundy’

2 results found for ‘fundie’ and NEITHER OF THEM WAS BY ME!!!

So, 2 OTHER people used the word and you accuse ME!!!

I highly resent all these accusations. You obviously have me mixed up with someone else. Or you have such an intense prejudice of ‘liberal’ (translate: anyone who doesn’t believe as you do) that you lump us all in together and can’t even tell us apart, to the point that you accuse one of us for something that someone else said.

How pathetic.

lealdragon · November 24, 2006, 2:16pm

hh, I really do not like having discord with anyone. Being in a situation of discord with someone on an online discussion forum, which is supposed to be for sharing ideas and recreational, interesting discussion, is really ridiculous.

I think each of us has enough drama in our personal lives without adding to it with a complete stranger.

I joined this forum to get college info. When I discovered the off-topic section, I found it interesting, since I enjoy discussion. I’ve made some friends on this and on other online forums.

I really don’t want to make any enemies.

hh, I don’t have any problem with YOU personally, until you started calling me nasty names (like bigot, which I found intensely offensive and totally uncalled for!) and then openly attacking me. I feel like you are stalking me on this forum and every chance you get, you look for an opportunity to attack. Then, you don’t even get it right - you fling insults at me based on something SOMEONE ELSE said!!!

I have never attacked you personally the way you have attacked me!!! Again, if you think that my sharing my experiences with Catholicism is a direct attack on YOU, then, maybe you should talk to your priest or something.

I think you feel threatened by people like CGM, conyat, Allmusic, and myself. You are scared because we offer ideas that you find radical.

Well, ya know what? If you are so secure in your faith, why do our ideas even bother you??? Why not just shrug it off?

Hey, the world is full of people who don’t agree with YOUR chosen religion. Deal with it!

I really don’t think I should have to walk on tiptoes every time I post anything on this forum, for fear that you might attack me again. You are taking the fun out of it. (Was that your intention all along? To make it so miserable for me that I leave, and then you won’t have to deal with me anymore?)

I have extended you well wishes. I have apologized to you. I have even expressed compassion for the concern about your dad. I have openly reached out to you.

In return, you have NEVER apologized to me, not once. You have rejected my attempts at understanding.

When I was in Catholic school, I was miserable. I was very tiny and sickly, and the only girl who was so tiny, since the class was so small, and the other kids picked on me mercilessly. They ridiculed me for being small, for not having nice clothes (my parents were poor since they didn’t use birth control like nearly all the other families), and I was always the last one to get picked on the team, since I was so small and weak. I DREADED recess.

I begged my dad to let me go to public school. He wouldn’t let me because he thought it was his duty to send me to Catholic school. All 9 of my siblings went all the way thru 8th grade. But finally, he relented and let me go to public school in 7th grade.

In public school, I was thrilled to find that there were other small girls like me! I was no longer the only one who stuck out. I made friends for the first time in my life. Sure, there was always a bit of the usual teasing, but never on the scale of the cruel ridicule and ostracizing I got in Catholic school.

(I should interject here that at that time I was a model Catholic. This was long before I started questioning my faith, so that was not the reason they ridiculed me.)

My dad was completely perplexed. I remember him shaking his head in consternation and saying “How can this be? The Catholic kids are supposed to be better people. They are supposed to be nicer than the non-Catholics! Why were the Catholic kids meaner than the public school kids?”

This really did a number on his head.

I tell this story because, here I am again, having to deal with a Catholic who is attacking me.

I left that behind long ago. I refuse to engage in any more discussion with you, hh. You might consider talking to your priest about what it means to treat people with kindness and understanding. I was taught that those were Catholic values.

BEST WISHES TO YOU

PEACE

(and I DO mean that)

"Destroy America" -- H.S. teacher fired for assignment

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