<p>Just as a follow up to the two very real children in my scenerio-</p>
<h1>1- graduated salutatorian last year, with an AS in math from the local CC that he received 2 weeks before he graduated from HS. Still struggles with ADD, not as much with impulse control, but has learned behaviors to check his actions. Over excitement can trigger decreased impulse control, and he knows that.</h1>
<h1>2- pregnant girlfriend, still running the streets, no job, held back a year, and not likely to graduate HS.</h1>
<p>No lie.</p>
<p>AND, he has had a number of friends since elementary school. The children that accepted him for who he was, and had parents willing to see past his impulse issues and work with him/us. Because of the attitudes of others towards him in elementary school, he is very slow to open up to others his age, and very slow and careful in making friends. Trusting people does not come easy. And making mistakes and being judged is also difficult. </p>
<p>That is a shame. </p>
<p>I have had more than one parent ask me in the past 3-4 years if they could adopt my son. Or if I could tell them my “secret”. If they only knew!</p>
<p>I went to a talented and gifted school. There were very few actually gifted kids - by my definition - but lots of talent. There was no corellation to behavior. We were rambunctious, but no more so than the public school classes I was in.</p>
<p>They would sometimes bring in kids to see if they’d fit. The ones with actual issues were easy to spot. They didn’t last. I remember one kid, Peggy. They brought her into Miss Doughty’s 2nd grade and she really stuck out. After some time - don’t remember those details - they put her next to me in the back row and asked me to spend some time with her. I tried to get her to focus, like during a quiz. After a few days, Miss D held me in during recess. They asked my opinion. I told them she had periods where she could pay attention but then she’d write all 9’s for every answer. I told them she couldn’t pay attention for long. She was gone after recess and I never saw her again.</p>
<p>As to behavior within the normal range, I was often at that edge. It wasn’t inability to focus but an excess of energy. I can’t sit. Still can’t. This is unlike the rest of my family. They gave me extra math books to keep me occupied. We could learn at our own pace. I realize now how hard it must have been to impose structure in that place.</p>
<p>One more thing, we have a 94 year old living with us now. WWII vet, productive his whole life, buried 2 wives. </p>
<p>He has impulse control issues as well as memory issues. Very similar to the second graders above. Not with the extreme papertowel/mud, but with other things that can be just as messy and annoying. It is truely a regression that elderly go through. </p>
<p>Is he just a bad kid too? I don’t think anyone would say that. His brain is not functioning to it’s full capability, like it used to. It is organic in nature. Just like the kids (especially #1) above. </p>
<p>We do have to use some behavior modification techniques with him as well, and they only differ slightly from those that we used with our son. I would hope that you would not have the same attitude with the elderly.</p>
<p>“they asked you that when you were ALSO in the second grade?”</p>
<p>Makes me think that we do have multiple lives, because who would ask a 7 year old, unless that 7 year old had the wisdom that comes from living another life. :)</p>
<p>To think that a 7 year old girl’s life could be changed by another 7 year old. </p>
<p>Lergnom is a very bright guy. It is obvious, but no, judging a 7 year old, that is a little too much.</p>
<p>There are many people on this board, that because of the very nature of this board are gifted. Maybe their kids are gifted.</p>
<p>If a teacher can’t figure out for him/ herself if a kid fits into a school and has to ask a 7 year old, I wonder aboout the school.</p>
<p>I am all for independent study, but…I wouldn’t want my kids judged
by other 7 year olds and I don’t care how smart the 7 year olds are. It’s hard enough to watch smart adults judge our kids.</p>
<p>Then again 7 year old kids might have less baggage. Hmmmm…</p>
<p>The problem with trying to parent the paper towel thrower is that it is difficult to proactively parent this kind of behavior. I think the gifted/ADHD impulsiveness and lack of common sense can go hand in hand. Or it can be related to the absent minded professor syndrome.</p>
<p>My ADHD child was too timid to misbehave at school but at home I was constantly saying “What were you thinking?.” After I explained to her why writing on the outside of the house or using your shoe as a boat in the pool or (insert additional ridiculous scenarios here) were not good ideas, she was always contrite. As a parent, I never expected to explicitly have to say “Don’t write on the house.” </p>
<p>My ADHD girl is away at college and my younger daughter often gets impatient with me because I over explain things. I am so used to talking with my ADHD child that I forget that my younger one doesn’t need explicit instructions for every task and scenario.</p>
<p>“If a teacher can’t figure out for him/ herself if a kid fits into a school and has to ask a 7 year old, I wonder aboout the school.”</p>
<p>It looks to me like they were probably ready to remove her from the class, but decided to get another opinion, from one of the other second graders. Right or wrong, in terms of having another student be the judge, perhaps this was a way of allowing another set of eyes and ears be the judge. What if the teacher felt she wasn’t fitting in, but Lergnom noticed something that made him want her to stay? If this was a class with a few truly gifted kids mixed in with many talented kids, it might have been to her advantage. A talented kid who puts a bit of effort in can often keep up with the gifted kids, or even outdo them. But keeping her in that class if she wasn’t focused would be no favor to either her or her classmates.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t ask a 5th or 6th grader, because they would know they hold the other student’s fate in their hands. But a 2nd grade either won’t realize that, or if they do they are likely to be wise enough to understand the responsibility. My youngest is the type of child that would have been given a similar type of “assignment.” She was the one who in kindergarten sought out the kids who were being excluded, and invited them to play with her - whether she liked them or not, she felt nobody deserved to have to play alone. In a classroom full of queen bees, she was one of the few that was respected by all of her classmates.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t ask a typical 2nd grader to “judge” a potential classmate, but I know a few young children with whom I wouldn’t hesitate at all, as long as it’s done with discretion.</p>
<p>I can see getting a sense of a kids social skills from other kids; there is actually research suggesting that works. But “focus and concentration”? How many adults even understand the complexity of assessing that? Maybe they asked “can you help Peggy get her work done?”.</p>
<p>Anyway, I won’t take this further off topic. .</p>
<p>It’s a myth based on selective perception that gifted children are prone to misbehavior, ADHD, or delinquency. </p>
<p>One study found that as many as 1/2 the children with an ADHD diagnosis had been mis-diagnosed. “Although they do show some problematic behaviors in some settings, these behaviors can be better explained by their giftedness and its implications. In short, they are simply incorrectly diagnosed as ADD or ADHD.” (Webb et al., 2005, p. 37)</p>
<p>A longitudinal study in New Zealand followed five-year-olds at risk for delinquency (based on economic status, family composition, etc.) and found that those with higher IQ were much less likely to become delinquent as adolescents. The researchers concluded that a high IQ was sort of a vaccine against bad behavior. </p>
<p>latichever- I agree with that too, but 50% of the kids DID have it, and many of those are smart/bright (hate the word “gifted”) kids. </p>
<p>So, what have we learned? </p>
<ol>
<li>smart {gifted} children can have attention and behavior problems because of their giftedness. </li>
<li>Gifted children can also have ADD, along with a whole host of other “diagnosis”, like executive function disorder, aspergers, and even some of the more major psychiatric diagnosis. </li>
<li>not all children with behavior problems are gifted, and not all gifted children have behavior problems. </li>
<li>All children that are gifted and/or have behavior problems require extra effort on the part of the entire community. </li>
<li>Parents have to be active in solving the problem. </li>
</ol>
<p>Not sure I buy the generalized statement that high IQ is a vaccine against bad behavior and an indicator of good life outcomes. Lots of very bad people are gifted. That is how they got there. And there are more than a handful of gifted people living on the streets.</p>
<p>Also, the reason I hate the term “gifted” is because most gifted children and adults also work their butts off. It is not always something that is “given” to them or comes easy to them. And giftness comes in different forms.</p>
<p>Further off topic, but I think “official” definitions of “giftedness” is WAY more than “smart” . I think it represents the top percent or two. Edited; okay, Mabel not. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t think the IQ vaccine prevents delinquency behavior, but I believe there is an inverse relationship between the two, although maybe not at the xtremes. OTOH, the linked study doesn’t look very good, but it’s only an abstract. </p>
<p>BTW, delinquency in childhood and antisocial behavior ( not ASOCIAL) behavior in adulthood might be related, but are not the same thing.</p>
<p>To explain, they asked me to check her out. It was pretty blunt. They wanted to know if she could pay attention for long. They told me she was very smart, maybe even that she tested really well. (The school believed in IQ tests.) So I treated her that way. I didn’t explain more earlier because I was typing with my fingers on screen and that’s slow. </p>
<p>I have no idea why they asked me, but I gave them exact feedback with examples. They moved us to the back row so I could sit next to her. I thought at first she had problems with trust so I was really sincere. I felt for a bit that we were communicating but then she wrote 9 for every answer on a ridiculously simple quiz and looked at me like I wasn’t there. It wasn’t a look of defiance but of being in a different place and uncomfortably fitting in this place. I wondered at the time if I’d failed. She was kind of pretty but her eyes behind the glasses weren’t normal except for a few minutes. </p>
<p>It’s not like I made a decision. I was part of some process. I didn’t even know the name of the person with Miss Doughty. BTW, I call her that in my memory; she was not the warmest person. They never told me anything about what they decided. If there was a failure, it was treating me like I could do this without a word of approval or explanation. </p>
<p>I wish I hadn’t mentioned this. It’s just a memory. I’m sure the school was just trying to do the best for this girl.</p>
<p>Awww…Don’t regret mentioning it. I am sorry I belabored it… But I am also curious. You seem to remember it well. Do you mind saying how long ago that was, or was there anything negative about that experience?</p>
<p>*But many kids with ADD or ADHD also lack impulse control. The difference there is the parent, in my opinion. *</p>
<p>I agree. Some parents of ADD/ADHD kids are just “too nice”, when structure, firm expectations, and limits need to be imposed. My MIL raised some ADD/ADHD brats simply because she was “too nice” and found it easier to just let them run wild (and she NEVER EVER said “no” to them…she always bought them EVERY thing on their Bday and Xmas lists…and I mean EVERYTHING…“no” has NEVER been in her vocab…) </p>
<p>The mitigating factor may be that she had been a very good child, raised alone (younger sibling came MANY years later), and send to boarding schools, so she never had to observe and kind of strict parenting style. Then she marries, has 8 kids (at least half ADHD), and has NO CLUE what to do but drug them. </p>
<p>I know, the term “too nice” may not be right…But we’ve all seen this kind of parent. The ones who continue to carry on conversations with others while their kids are screaming in restaurants, climbing on everything, etc. The parents don’t have the ■■■■■■■ to do the right thing.</p>
<p>I don’t think that there is actually a universal educational definition of “gifted”. To take that even further, most schools have “GT” or gifted and talented. What is the difference, and how do you differentiate? If someone is talented, but it was not a “gifted” skill but a learned talent, does that make them less of a student? Or is persistence then the “gift”? And how do you get an objective measure of it?</p>
<p>The other issue is the area a child is gifted in. Many of thse kids are not high scoring students across the board. Some are gifted in music, some in art…those students giftedness does not show up on a test. Others may score high in math, but not in language skills.</p>
<p>^
I guess I was thinking of a boy I am currently seeing. He is not in the top 10 percent, but probably in the top 1 in most areas, and I think it makes it harder to relate, and harder to relate to, than the more common “extremely bright” kids. He is still extremely distractable, impulsive, and , so he is certainly not “gifted” in those areas. You are right, and I digress . </p>
<p>^^
It probably SEEMS simple, and it may at times BE simple, but I think you have to take into account that kinds of kids ELICiT different kinds of parenting behavior. A mentor of mine used to say that’s why God gives some people a second child. Just when you get smug agout the role of your superior parenting in how your child turns out WHAM! In the MUGSKY!</p>
<p>I am not surprised. Again I think it is important to note that not all deliquent children turn out to be antisocial. But I wonder how many of them showed antisocial behavior as children?</p>
<p>Also, how does early intervention with identified “deliquent” behavior change the course for those kids? </p>
<p>I know, I know!! If we had those answers, then there would not be a waiting list to get into prisons!</p>