I think the key is also not caring what other people say about the choices they make. Social media has certainly made that more difficult. None of my kids are currently in a relationship, but all of them want to get married and have children. I think they will all require 2 income families to have the life they want, but who knows what the future holds!
I think men are part of the audience indirectly ā think Jesse Waters on FOX, Andrew Tate, Ben Shapiro, etc. They arenāt creating content, but they do amplify to men watching a certain ātradā point of view that might appeal to some men who are unhappily single, or even happily aspiring to find a particular kind of woman. It validates the POV, perhaps.
But we are wandering off into politics, now
I think on the income issue- not just a stay at home parent, but other āless than lucrativeā choices-
I know a lot of women in my cohort (mid-60ās) who feel they were sold a bill of goods. They decided to stay home with their kids (either after the first was born, or after the second, or once the kids got fun and interesting, or when childcare costs exploded) and the āassumptionā was always that theyād get back on track once the kids started HS or left for college or whenever.
This is very, very hard to do. And itās equally hard when the litigation lawyer decides to scale back and work as a substitute teacher, or when the engineer gets a job teaching AP math and science in the local HS so theyāll have the same days off as their kids. The logic behind the choices is sound. The difficulty in getting back on track, if that means comparable pay, benefits, no hit to the retirement, same health insurance, etc. cannot be overstated.
I wonāt bother yāall with the case studies- Iām sure you know people like this IRL. But careers change, industries morph, technology moves forward at lightening speed sometimes, the skills that once got you to a comfortable place professionally are obsolete or are done by Perplexity.
Iāve got a friend who loves the āself-actualizationā of teaching yoga but is riddled with resentment that her 15 hour a week gig will get her back to her bankers salary-- NEVER. She forgets that she logged travel and 80 hour weeks; she forgets all the reasons why her quality of life became more important than the stock price. But the economic gap- whoa.
I saw my mom and grandmotherās generation stuck with spouses and lives they didnāt want but couldnāt afford to leave- no. Iāve taught my kids of both genders that being self-sufficient financially IS self-actualization. And if you hate your job, the answer is a different job, not chucking it and praying that youāll get back to your old salary someday.
So yes- I see men and women in their 20ās and 30ās wary of any life partner who is going to rock the boat economically. Either someone with a beer budget and champagne tastes (and this applies equally to men and women- I know young guys hoping to meet someone whose startup is about to go public) or someone who expects to be taken care of financially. Yet another roadblock to an SO and eventually marriage.
I was able to take extended time off when each of my daughters were born. I worked for the CFO of a company and he was instrumental in letting me work part time (this was in the 90ās) for many years. This kept me current with my company and the finance and accounting department that I worked in. I was able to still go on field trips and help out in the class once both girls were in school. I was also available for after school pickup. I feel very fortunate that I was able to make part time work for my family as I had many friends at the time who could not do this with their jobs.
@blossom thank you. I loved my corporate accounting career but a combination of a second child with some medical issues and lack of a support system ( husband traveled, family 800 miles away, work from home not an option at that time) I stepped out of the work force for 10 years. I did enjoy the time with my kids and not having to stress about logistics, but I missed my career and I missed making my own money. Some people feel differently and thatās all good. But it was hard for me.
I went back in a greatly diminished role, but even when I learned the newer technology and took on higher level responsibilities, I was never paid/titled what I was worth. Then got kicked in the teeth ( long story) at age 60.
D has a career she loves and is paid well for. It is far more family friendly ( she will have her second child this summer), she has a hybrid schedule, we live 15 minutes away AND our SIL is a true partner in parenting. That is also key.
I dated my husband for 5 years before getting engaged (moved in together for the 8 months before getting married). We were 28, most of our friends were still single (nyc metro area). My daughter has been dating her boyfriend for 6 years (they are in grad school a 3 hour flight from each other). My son has been with his gf for over 3 years (but itās not his longest relationship), I think theyāll move in together within the year (he has his own apartment, she graduated college last May and is living at home). I say the longer the better, divorce is messy and you really need to know someone very well to make a lifelong commitment.
Something Iāve noticed with my 20yr old and her friends is this unwillingness to compromise at all. I imagine it started from a good place, teaching our girls not to settle. But now it feels like sheās searching for perfection. Sheās only 20 so Iām not expecting seriousness at this point but I worry that sheās so tough on the guys she dates while expecting them to think sheās perfect.
She goes on a lot of first and second dates and then finds something wrong. Heās not the right fit with my friends, his fraternity doesnāt hang out with my friends, heās too nice, heās boring, etc. Sheās often interested in very unattainable guys, she briefly dated the star football player whoās going to work for Goldman next year, but he was too busy to spend enough time with her
Iām making her sound like a brat and she really isnāt! But I worry sheās missing out on a great relationship because she canāt see what qualities actually matter.
Now my S25, sigh. Heāll be married after college graduation guarantee it, that kid just finds his people and thatās it.
Just AI:
Studies suggest that couples who cohabitate (live together) before marriage have a statistically higher divorce rate compared to those who wait until marriage to move in together. One study found that 34% of marriages ended among those who lived together before engagement, while only 23% ended among couples who waited.
- Cohabitation and Divorce:
Research consistently indicates a link between cohabitation before marriage and a greater likelihood of divorce.
- Engagement as a Factor:
Being engaged before moving in together has a similar protective effect against divorce as marriage, serving as a public declaration of commitment.
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Reasons for Higher Risk:
- āTestingā the Relationship: Couples who move in together to ātestā their relationship before marriage have particularly lower odds of long-term marital success.
- Financial Factors: Couples driven by financial reasons to move in together also tend to have less stable marriages.
- Communication Issues: Hello Prenup suggests that couples who lived together before marriage reported lower relationship satisfaction and had higher divorce rates.
All very interesting. It would suggest that ātestingā the relationship by moving in together prior marriage is actually a barrier to staying together.
Neither of my kids have dated much. My older son (college junior) doesnāt have the bandwidth - he is too invested in his club sport (national contender), his guitar playing and spending time with his friends. He is very good looking (objectively, not because Iām his mother) and has had a lot of women approach him but he isnāt interested in casual hook ups and canāt promise any more than that so he keeps it āfriends only.ā He says he doesnāt want to get married or have kids but he is still really young so that may change. My younger son is pretty shy and hasnāt had much luck with women but he would love to meet someone and has expressed interest in getting married and having kids someday. I donāt believe either one has used any apps. Eventually I think they would both be good partners - they are smart, funny, interesting and (for those that care) progressive minded (they cook and clean).
I agree, which is why we didnāt move in together until 5 years and an engagement. We spent most nights together, at my place (no roommates) or his (2 roommates). The only reason he moved in with me is because his roommates found someone to take his room. I lived in a tiny 2 room apartment, we moved after we got married. We wanted to make sure we were 100% before living together. Weāve been married almost 29 years, together for 36, and have known each other for 46 years.
Well, as someone who is divorced and whose offspring shuffled between 2 parents who loathed each other, I disagree with the idea that kids who do this have less realistic ideas of marriage and/or should be avoided as partners.
My adult married kid is older than yours. Spouse has the āoriginalsāāparents married about 45 years. I think one of the biggest breaks my kid caught was that spouseās momās parentsāspouseās grandparentsāhad an extremely acrimonious divorce. Spouseās parents didnāt think my kid would be unable to have a good marriage as a child of divorce because they have a good marriage and wifeās parents were divorced.
I think those of you who think itās a good idea to limit your kidās choices to those who come from stable families are missing out on some wonderful people. So far, among my divorced friendsā children, the kids seem to be doing just as well marrying and sustaining marriages as everyone else.
My married kid has many seemingly happily married friends whose parents were divorced. The only married couple in their extended social circle whose marriage ended in divorce both were the children of long term happy marriages.
I had a mini reunion of 10 female friends from college last summer. 5 of us had divorced. 2 of the 5 have remarried happily. The only one of us who has a child who has divorced has been happily married over 50 years.
I lived with my wife for 6 months in college when we were dating. We lived together again for 6 months when she did her internship for her masters. Other than that she was 500 miles away for over 2 years. The next time we lived together was after our wedding. Weāve been happily married for 29 years.
Agreed @jonri. Both my sibling and I have been married to our spouses >25 years and we are children of divorce. One of our parents remarried multiple times, the other has stayed single. My aunt and uncle have been married for more than 50 years and one of their children is divorced (now married to their affair partner).
While I donāt pretend to know the secret of a long lasting marriage, I donāt think that parents divorcing or parents staying married is what leads to successful marriages for their children.
I donāt think that anyoneās saying someone should ālimitā their kids to dating people from stable families, though I do think there has definitely been encouragement of kids to marry others from āin-tactā and āgoodā families.
That said, however, Iām with you on the fact that people can miss out on wonderful partners whose family background might otherwise eliminate them. My MIL was married to someone imprisoned (for, the general impression is, something pretty horrendous) and then had three other kids with a different man (divorced the imprisoned husband before the last kid with that man came along). Lots of addiction issues in the family, and MIL gambled away the house that one of her kids had paid off using their enlistment bonus. But one of those kids turned out to be a wonderful spouse, and my grandmother (who was married for over 60 years) and my mother (2x divorced) both think that heās one of the best men theyāve ever known (though I will readily admit, heās not perfect).
As another example, both of my parents have been 2x divorced, and someone with these ārecommendedā standards would have missed out on the wonderfulness of me!
Thatās not what I posted, itās not what I meant, and itās CERTAINLY not what I believe.
I was positing an observation that for a generation of kids who saw many more divorced families than earlier, the notion of quickly pairing off (my mom dated one guy in college- and then married him, the push to be engaged by Xmas of senior year was real in the early 1950ās) might seem quite unappealing. And perhaps these kids have āhigher standardsā as a result- what makes a fun BF at age 21 isnāt necessarily what makes a good husband at age 40.
apologies if Iāve offended you. There are many things to avoid but divorce is not one of them.
One thing Iāve emphasized with my kids is to look how their SO treats their family. My sister is divorced, her ex treated his family like crap, looking back it was a red flag. I donāt think divorce is a flag, but family dynamics can be.
I think ātestingā a relationship means at least 1/2 of the couple has serious doubts about the stability and viability of the relationship to start with. If a person in a live-in relationship starts with an attitude that is probably not going to work out , then I donāt see any way the relationship could survive rough patches. And every relationship has its rough patches. In fact, disagreements and differences will loom larger simply because an individual is already expecting them.
Reading through the replies makes me wonder ⦠Do you think with dating apps giving so many more options and seemingly endless choices of life pursuits it has hindered the 20-30 to not making any choices? I read up thread of a poster whose son who is busy pursuing personal goals, club sports, etc and does not see the need for a serious relationship. Whereas when I graduated from college meeting your person was a top priority?
I will say that Son 1 is not interested in ever having kids which seems to be more common these days.
Yes! This is what I meant when saying to look at the family of origin - good family dynamics. One of my best law school friends is divorced and remarried. Her ex is remarried as well. Everyone works and plays well together. They are mature people who are respectful to each other.
Thatās far better than my married forever in-laws were.
Thatās what I got out of your post, and I definitely agree.