But that’s fine, it’s no different to someone finding out their analytic or managerial or whatever capabilities aren’t what they thought they were and needing to look for another job that works for them. Imo it’s just not relevant to whether or not someone gets accommodations at college.
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Some of what was discussed on the other listserv were observations that some academic accommodations helped students successfully complete, and spent $$$ to complete, the educational requirements of their professional fields, but that they then might have been unable to complete some licensing or experiential requirements successfully. This is separate from students who didn’t have accommodations (again separating individual strengths and weaknesses from a difference rising to the level of a disability). Sure people find out they weren’t cut out for a career they thought they wanted, but that’s a separate issue.
Did they list specific examples? I’d love to know what they were.
I just spoke above in generalities. They just gave hypotheticals.
Just replying to this (I support students getting the accommodations they need.) In my D’s IB class, one of her friends, who had test accommodations in college, was unable to pass the required SEC tests. Typically, the firm requires the tests to be passed in the first 60 days of employment. This firm allowed the employee until Thanksgiving, when they let her go.
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Maybe there are more kids at top schools with disabilities, because when you provide the supports that allow success, these kids show up in a big way, with levels of maturity and emotional iq that are absolutely unteachable.
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I am not going to be able to share specifics of what is discussed in a separate professional LISTSERV, but suffice it to say there is an interesting conversation about the pressure on kids who may feel the need to take many AP courses, end up with sleep problems because of the number of hours they are putting into trying to keep up and get their work done, managed to get themselves diagnosed with a processing speed disorder because of the amount of work loaded upon them that they simply cannot manage as they may not have the innate capabilities to do so, but her feeling the pressure to take all of these high-level courses in order to be competitive in the college application process. Some of these kids are in private schools and the schools feel compelled to allow the kids to overload their schedules for reasons which we don’t need to reiterate here. So it becomes a vicious cycle.
There was also the conversation of students who truly had learning disabilities who wanted to try to function and complete their professional exams without accommodations would simply could not do so. So ultimately did do so successfully with accommodations, but had to find an opportunity within their professional career that did not put the demands to engage in rapid, fast-paced divided or alternating attention skills on an ongoing basis with time constraints and allow them to find a job opportunity that fit their abilities and minimize their disabilities.
Finally, as I mentioned upthread, there is commonly an expectation that when a student is brought in for a private evaluation that there will be a diagnosis of some sort of disability contributing to their difficulties in school. This is not always the case as testing doesn’t always find or document an underlying disability. It becomes a challenge for the provider if the data simply doesn’t support a diagnosis, but the family expects one in order to apply for accommodations.
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Is this a bad thing? Or even related to accommodation or disability? Because this happens in the absence of disability. It happens all the time. It’s not a reason to hold people back. Let them tell you when they’ve had enough.
My middle child is in residency. No diagnosed disabilities, no accommodations, but also aware they are not always the most academically dominant person in the room. They know they are not suited to the demands of surgery or emergency medicine. But you would not find a better palliative care physician.
Is this not what you describe? Having to make a life choice because of realized limitations and strengths? True limitations, not arbitrary tested limitations decided by others. Limitations and strengths that aren’t often fully understood until adulthood and in a position to try and do the work.
That same student once wanted to accelerate out of a math class and was told no, they ultimately left the school, a place they loved, rather than be held back from taking an overload people had decided they were unqualified for. Experiences like that have led us to notice how often academic gatekeeping happens when it shouldn’t. And how negating desire, which can’t be measured so easily, but often means far more, is such a bad thing.
I know this may be hard for some people to grasp, but within many fields, excellence is not best predicted by ease of test-taking or even straight A’s. Sometimes, because we are human, those perfect test takers are truly not the people you most want in the room.
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@Jackshome Of course it’s not a bad thing. People need to find a position best suited for their skill base. But in the example that was given in my other forum that unfortunately I cannot share the specifics, the person was hopeful that they would be able to handle a certain aspect of their profession that they simply could not, and had to make several job changes in order to find a place that worked for them. Sometimes “desire” is simply not enough.
As For being kept from overloading their schedules, I think we are seeing it differently. Desire and ability and stress level can all be different things. In the situations I was reading about on my LISTSERV, There were students with average capabilities who were being pushed by parents to overload their schedules and their abilities and stress themselves out. Perhaps in those cases the schools knew what they were doing by trying to suggest that that may not be the best plan, but were concerned about making parents paying tuition and ultimately donations, Happy.
ETA: at my kids’ school there was simply not enough space for everyone who wanted to to take the AP classes. So they restricted students to those who they were pretty sure would get fours and fives on the exam so that the profile page could reflect this. That was a little annoying. Fortunately, it didn’t prevent my kids from taking the classes they wanted, but I can see how that would be a disincentive for some parents and students.
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@Jackshome - an additional thought worth sharing – at the competitive public high school in our area (my kids did not attend there) the policy had been that if you chose to take an AP class that was not recommended, you committed to sticking with it and not dropping it if it got too hard. Sometimes schools do know better than the students what placement might be best suited for them. Certainly that’s not always the case, but it can be at times.
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I’m going to offer another perspective here. We Thumper Parents were the gate keeper for one of our kids who got a bachelors with two majors (engineering and biology). This kid is now an emergency room doctor with a dual appointment as an assistant professor at the affiliated medical school. So clearly, the kid is not a slouch.
At the end of grade 7, the middle school math department chair suggested this kid accelerate in math. We politely asked to discuss this…and asked for a compelling reason why this recommendation was being made. There really wasn’t one…except that the kid got great grades in 7th grade math, and had teacher recommendation to accelerate. We graciously declined the offer. DH (an engineer) felt that a strong foundation in all math courses was essential and more important than accelerating in this area. We were the first ever parents to decline this offer.
Our kid had terrific math teachers in her regular and honors math courses, all the way through precalculus. She said she was very well prepared for college calculus, and all of the much higher level engineering courses she took in undergrad school.
My feeling…I wish this acceleration in math hadn’t taken on a life of its own. It’s my opinion that is what has happened.
Bottom line, my kid, like yours, was successful. That they took different paths to get there doesn’t matter one bit.
We were also supportive gatekeepers for our other kid, a musician. The school counselor insisted he needed to take precalc. Kid wanted to take economics and statistics his senior year. HIS choices had much more value than precalc would have had for him. That almost ended up at the board of education level because the GC (who really didn’t know my kid all that well) refused to sign off on the schedule initially. But then she did.
I’m a career educator. I believe I gave sound advice to families about my students. But I also had to listen to the parents. This is what good educators do. And sometimes, there are compromises to be made by both parents and teachers, and that’s OK too.
It’s also important to be watchful for frustration, or some lack of understanding of the material being taught. That happens. And sometimes adjustments need to be made.
I think it’s important also to remember that there are TONS of ways to supplement learning in all areas outside of the school day. We did this as well.
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I agree the parental push is wrong.
My student who needed accommodation took far less classes, not more.
That was one accommodation.
I was only here to say, that as a parent, I read articles like this one shared from the OP, and it’s full of coded language obviously insinuating my student took a seat from someone who otherwise would have had higher stats because of privilege and entitlement and it’s heartbreaking.
This isn’t entitlement. I’m at hundreds of medical visits playing whack a mole with terrifying health issues. Literally and figuratively on my knees taking care of a sick child for years and then articles like this ignore how a struggle requiring accommodation changes who a student is in a fundamental way that perhaps a college might be interested in.
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Did you gate keep, or was your student unfazed about class selection and being pushed toward something they didn’t seem excited about?
It doesn’t sound like you were gatekeeping the musician either. You were advocating when others weren’t listening.
I had another student who barely made it through high school. They had ADD, didn’t want anything extra, were largely uninspired educationally and I was ok with that. It’s their life. That student went back to community college as an adult was very driven and has been successful.
More successful than the resident.
We all have our own paths.
I’m trying to say I think it’s possible we might both have been taking a child centered approach while those around us refused to.
Also, for all of my children, with very few exceptions, their teachers have been magnificent. These are systemic issues, administrative issues, not day to day classroom issues.
It sounds like you have done a Herculean job with your kids. My point, as one who had decades in the field of assessment and treatment, is that it was interesting to see the opinions of my colleagues on the LISTSERV, and comments from some very well known/well respected colleagues in the field.
As you know, the purpose of providing accommodations of any kind for students with disabilities is to provide “equal access” to education. The concern observed by many, including my colleagues, is that In this incredibly competitive environment, some families feel the student must take an incredibly intense academic courseload, as well as comprehensive extracurricular activities to be a viable candidate for a perceived post secondary target. There are those students who clearly qualify for and need any of a variety of modification/accommodations. And there are those who don’t. And sadly, some families do think that they can, for lack of a better word, “Buy” a diagnosis. That makes me painfully sad.
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Did you gate keep, or was your student unfazed about class selection and being pushed toward something they didn’t seem excited about?
this kid wanted to be accelerated. We parents made the decision it was not a good idea. In retrospect, the kid totally agrees. At the time, she was a little irritated with us.
It doesn’t sound like you were gatekeeping the musician either. You were advocating when others weren’t listening.
that’s probably a better description. We and the kid were on the same page…it was the GC that was not
Same here. Our kids had terrific teachers.
Me too.
Please consider whether this discussion is actually much different from conversations that have long been had around SNAP benefits (or food stamps back in my day) The question feels the same from my perspective, that is, how is accountability addressed without creating barriers or unintended harm for those the system is meant to support.
I believe unintended harm is created by articles like this, and professionally, you and your colleagues may be operating in a space to have what could be really helpful and open discussion or to provide professional feedback on a broken system, but people like me, or my student, or other parents here who left heartfelt statements, should they ever choose to publicly speak of the experiences in detail, that all of our uneducated (in the classical sense) positions on this shouldn’t be discounted.
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Good points. But in truth I think we are saying the same thing. The system is broken and everyone knows it. Many families cannot afford a comprehensive evaluation, and insurance doesn’t pay for it (except on a limited basis, with very poor/limited reimbursement, in certain circumstances, but not if it is for “educational purposes”.) We wouldn’t be in this profession if we did not want to help students and families and others with diagnosis and treatment, but we also see the attempts by some to take advantage, and that is challenging. Add to that (and apologies to some who may take issue with this but so be it) there are more providers doing evaluations without the level of training/expertise that much of these kinds of assessments require (the art is not in learning to administer tests, the art is in understanding what the scores mean). Thank you to the school psychologists who do evaluations in the school, but in many states they cannot “diagnose” a medical condition like ADHD, but can make educational recommendations/interventions. And then if a student gets to college, they may need updated evals, but may have trouble accessing them. And round and round it goes.
I don’t know how to help with what must be so frustrating professionally except to continue to be honest so you understand lived experience. When systems that are meant to be a safety net for vulnerable children shift focus toward resistance and skepticism in order to prevent misuse, it works against their purpose.
The toll of this shift was heavy for my student. As I read through comments I see others that say we are not alone.
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The way to “help” I suppose, is to use whatever contacts/connections to work to fix the broken healthcare system and wind down the ridiculously competitive college application system that feed this chaos. Pipe dreams. As for me, I am retired but watch the continued activity in my professional world. I do watch with some sadness that the healthcare system is also feeding the proliferation of lesser qualified/lesser trained folks being allowed to provide some assessments. But thats grist for another conversation.
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Yes