Discouraged Junior (long)

Parents Forum
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<p>My D is getting very discouraged. I’m hoping the parents here may have some insight as to further advice I can give her.</p>

<p>We live in NYC. There are many specialized HS here, that 8th grade applicants can apply to. When my D was in 8th grade, she took the test for the “NYC Specialized High Schools”. There are 5 of these schools and the test is quite difficult, and the schools very competitive. She got in to a couple of the school she was interested in. We thought long and hard about whether she would go to one of them, because they were not easy to get to. She ultimately decided to attend one of them. The school she chose is well known, and quite difficult. All classes are “honors”, a diploma from this school requries more credits than a regular local HS, and the classes are harder and students routinely get into top colleges with merit $$ and other scholarships. Her school hours are 8-3:30, and hour longer than the regular HS hours. She commutes AN HOUR AND A HALF each way. Takes the bus, Staten Island ferry and subway each way. On a day with no afterschool activities she leaves the house at 6AM and returns home at 5PM, with an avergae of 2 hours of homework. During softball season (4 year varsity starter) she sometimes gets home at 7:30 or 8PM and still has to do the homework. Every student is also required to do school and community service.
NEVER once did she complain. She loves the school, loves her friends and loves most of her teachers.
Here is the issue…She has a 92 average and a 1410 on the old SATs, school doesn’t rank for obvious reasons and doesn’t weigh grades. We have started the college search and have visited some schools that she’s interested in. Some of the schools (not many, but a few) will look at the school profile, BUT will take her GPA at face value a 92 is a 92 doesn’t matter where it comes from. One of the state schools she is interested in (the most competitive) has an honors program where minimum requirements are a 94 average and a 1350 SAT. When she was told this, she mentioned the school she goes to (SUNY schools know it very well) and was told that it didn’t matter. Now she keeps saying that she should have just gone to our local school where she probably would have had a 98-100 avg and probably been the valadictorian or at least close to it. She has even mentioned transfering for her Sr year. all she keeps saying is “I commute 3 freakin hours a day, bust my butt…for what???”. I have told her that she should just continue to do what she is doing, and if a school or program doesn’t want her, it’s their loss. There are quite a few schools on her list who have already told her that THEY will weigh her GPA according to their table which will take into account the school she goes to and the difficulty of her classes. She will also let most school sknow via her essay about her commute which shows dedication. Deep down I know she doesn’t want to transfer, nor do I want her to, but she is so discouraged that she worked so hard and someone who has a better GPA is much easier classes may be able to get into schools or programs that she won’t get into.
Can anyone give me some advice as to what more I can do or what more I can tell her???</p>

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<p>Most of the competitive schools take the weight off the GPA. Some recalculate the “core” classes (Math, Science, History, English, Foreign Language). The rigor of her high school should be noted in the guidance counselor’s evaluation, and also in her teacher recs. Rigor of coursework is cited quite often as a very important factor in admission’s decisions. She would be better off at the more rigorous school, because she is not floundering. </p>

<p>I think it’s commendable that she has adjusted to academic rigor and a long commute. And it is most important that she has enjoyed high school, her friends, and her activities. </p>

<p>If she transfers, sometimes schools will not give GPA credit for a class if it is not offered at their school. Or if you move from a weighted to an unweighted or vice versa some grades get lost in the translation. I would only transfer if she is truly unhappy at her current school. </p>

<p>Also keep in mind that transferring will not guarantee admission to a particular school.</p>

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<p>Have you spoken to the guidance counselor at her high school? It is also my understanding that the colleges <em>know</em> the caliber and intensity of your daughter’s school and will factor that into the admissions process.</p>

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<p>Yankeegirl:</p>

<p>Tell your D that some students who got into HYP might not make it into some state schools. State schools go by stats so it hurts students at very competitive schools such as your Ds. An accomplished student like her, however, should set her sights on a different set of schools. Not only will she have a good shot at admission at some excellent schools, but she also will stand a good chance of merit money.
If she feels she is getting a great education compared to what she would get in a regular high school, I would not transfer, especially for senior year, since the grades that will count the most are those of junior year (for EA/ED) and fall of senior year (for RD).
What she could do is to retake the SAT or perhaps take the ACT to boost her score up. She should also focus on the type of schools she would like to attend. LACs? midsized research universities? larger schools? urban/suburban? coed/single sex? With her background, she should have plenty to choose from.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the quick relplies.
She has already taken the SATs again, because she had to take the new ones for some schools. She should do better on the news ones since the analogies were her weak point and they were eliminated and she is an excellent writer.
The funny thing is that she doesn’t even want to go to a state school. She is only applying for financial reasons. In case she doesn’t get money from her other choices. We cannot afford to pay full tuition at a private school (even thought he Govt says we can), so when the time comes we will decide together if loans and such would be feasible, but she still needs the state school just in case. She would probably only be willing to go if it were the honors program.
Schools she is allying to as of right now:
American U-already knows she will most likely get merit $$
Ithaca-Same
Syracuse
Marist-already meets criteria for guranteed merit
Princeton-reach & no merit $$
NYU-applying for JP Morgan Cahse scholarship for NYC residents
Columbia-same as NYU
Penn State-also doesn’t weigh and doesn’t take into acct they type of HS</p>

<p>More than likely she will go to one of the above, but she is still upset that some schools will not care that she chose to take the more difficult route rather than coasting thru a school that is 10 minutes from our house.</p>

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<p>There are threads that discuss private universities that give substantial merit money. You should check them out. Offhand, I would mention Rochester and Case Western. There are also Honors Programs at some state universities that offer good merit money. Some of them have rolling admissions.</p>

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<p>Hi Yankeegirl,</p>

<p>Another NYC parent here. If she attends, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science , Brookyn Tech, Townsend Harris, NYC Lab, S.I. Tech, Hunter or Laguardia the schools are already aware of the academic rigor (which is going to be in her favor) and they all have track records for sending many students to the schools you mentioned especially NYU and Columbia. Word to the wise, living in NYC and not showing interest for Columbia is pretty much the kiss of death because they ask you on the application about your contact with the school and there is an expectation, that you come for a tour, sit in on a class, spend the night on campu since you are within communting distance. Don’t eliminate Barnard from your search.</p>

<p>Personally I don’t think she should transfer because of the curriculum she has already taken, with the exception of gym and english, she would have already completed her requirements for graduation and would have a schedule of fluff classes whcih would hurt her in the end as far as academic rigor is concerned.</p>

<p>If whe get a Chase Smart Start Scholarship, that would be wonderful because it would be a free ride. <a href=“http://www.jpmorganchase.com/cm/cs?pagename=Chase/Href&urlname=jpmc/community/grants/educ/smartstart[/url]”>http://www.jpmorganchase.com/cm/cs?pagename=Chase/Href&urlname=jpmc/community/grants/educ/smartstart&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think that she should possibly broaden her net because ther will be a number of schools where she may be in the running for merit $$ at schools like George Washington, American, Juniata. I hope jami, NSM or Carolyn check in because they can give you some great suggestions.</p>

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<p>Yankeegirl… unless you have an aversion to looking out of the region, your daughter’s options might be much broader in another part of the country. Schools like Rice (much lower tuition) Emory (merit money) Brandeis (merit money) Tulane, etc. won’t have her competing with every other kid from her high school. You should also make sure you’re familiar with the requirements of the Bausch and Lomb and other scholarships available to NY residents. Please check out your employer as well; the income cap on employer sponsored scholarships is usually higher than others, and the requirements (3.0 GPA and not getting arrested…) aren’t too tough to maintain.</p>

<p>You might also ask the GC now to let you see the stats on where kids with her profile have been admitted over the last few years. It might reassure her to see that kids from her HS have gone to some fantastic schools, where the adcoms clearly understand the rigor of the curriculum, the intensity of the environment, and the demands of the commute. If you can focus on this together it might help you expand the list over the spring/summer.</p>

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<p>Friends daughter graduated Brooklyn Tech last year and got into Carnegie Mellon with stats lower than your d. If she had graduated from Sheepshead Bay (my alma mater) or New Dorp she may not have gotten in. So schools definitely recognize the competitive nature of Stuy- Bronx Science etc. Your d WILL be admitted to most of the schools you listed. Columbia and Princeton are iffy but they are for EVERYBODY. I believe that with her background and grades she can get some nice merit money from schools such as Marite mentioned as well as Tulane-Rice- Boston U and many others. There are many colleges who would love to get a graduate of Stuy–Brooklyn Tech etc. I also have a junior who travels around 8 minutes to her HS. She’s complaining alot too lately. I think it’s that time of year when the kids are just getting exhausted. In NY ( and we’re in Nassau County) the SAT’s are coming up-AP’s-Regents-term projects etc. etc. etc. So part of what your d is going through is a normal venting process. Those of us who are familiar with the specialized HS’s in NY know that your d really should not be considering transferring out of her school. If she really is overwhelmed, you could suggest she give up softball–(my d is an athlete too) but she probably won’t take the advice. For all us parents of Juniors, It’s going to be a long year. Good luck.</p>

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<p>My D does go to Brooklyn Tech. As I said, she doesn’t really want to transfer out, nor do I want her to. It just upsets her that schools have told her that her 92 avg is the same as any other 92 avg.
Softball or her other EC’s are not a problem. She does fine with the commute, the ECs and the homework and never ever complains. She is definitely not overwhelmed.
We both know there are a lot of schools that would love to have her, such as the ones mentioned, but she wants to stay within a 4-5 hour drive from home and wants to major in journalism, which not all schools have. She also absolutely does not want New England or the South. The only school thats not in the East that she may be interested in is Northwestern and only because of their journalism school.
We do plan on showing interest in Columbia and going to an info session/tour.
We are actively looking at scholarships and she will be applying for the Chase one as well as the one the company I work for offers.
I am going to show her this thread, I know it will make her feel better…thanks so much!!!
BTW Marny…we must have grown up in the same area, I went to Dewey, have friends who went to Sheepshead, I heard that school is horrible now.</p>

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<p>Yeah! But I think they are the PSAL Football champs (??). When I went there, we didn’t have a football team. Go Sharks!! My mom is still in the neighborhood. I’ll admit, if I still lived there, I’d try to get my kid in Tech too. I think for journalism your d is applying to the right schools-Syracuse-Ithaca–Northwestern etc. Since Columbia is going to be tough to get into, might she also want to look into Barnard?? (Barnard also has a nice pre-college program. D # 1 did Women’s Leadership program through them a few years ago. It was then a non-residential program on various week-ends throughout year so the cost was about $100. They now made it residential so the cost is now a few thousand. They have various other courses throughout the summer including a 1 week mini-session which isn’t too costly.) Anyway Good luck. I’m sure as another parent of a Junior we will be “chatting” often.</p>

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<p>Yankeegirl, that is the downside of going to any school where the grades are deflated, no weighting or AP designations given, and the kids are preselected so they are within a narrow band in scholastic aptitude. At S’s school, a young man was not admitted to UVA because he did not have a 3.5 average despite a near perfect SAT, very high SAT2s, and 5’s on a number of AP exams. And he was a legacy. With the “formula” schools, that is an issue. If your high school is a known entity, the schools will take the grades into consideration. Your school will likely have a College book where you can track the acceptances from a number of competitive colleges with gpa and SAT info, and your D’s GC can tell you which schools do give consideration, and which do not. Unfortunately, it is not just the admissions that can be a problem. A lot of scholarships, honors programs also do not take the school into consideration. Prep schools have a notoriously low rate of kids getting scholarships because of the deflated grades. My son had this problem years ago when local recognition was given to scholar/athletes. The committee recognized kids from one local school that graded on a 5.0 basis and weighted the grades, and tended to be generous with their grading (3/4 of the school was on the honor roll). Also the committee did not bother to convert the gpas to a 4.0 scale as they should have. And when it came to ROTC scholarships, the same occurred. My son was at a definite disadvantage coming from a rigorous private school where no courses are weighted, and a 3.4 is an outstanding grade with less than 10% of the class achieving that standard. You do not see many from that school in the state honors program. But, oh, the education you get from that school was top notch.</p>

<p>I think Sybbie’s advice was excellent. One of the problems kids do face who come from the densely populated (with elite college aspirants!) Northeast face is that they are all competing for the same schools and scholarships. The award that your daughter has in her sights only picks about 200 kids in all of NY. The competition is staggering, and the same grade inflation issue arises. A couple of kids from S’s Catholic highschool got the award the year he graduated, I remember, and that school is notorious for grade inflation. Looking at the list of who got the award, I get a strong feeling that a 92 average from even the top city magnets is going to be a long shot. Not to say you should not try, but do be aware of the situation. As Sybbie suggested, your D should look a little further at schools, perhaps Dartmouth, or schools in the midwest (Maclaster, UChicago, Grinnell) or the South (Davidson, Sewanee, Wash&Lee). My friend’s D who did cast a wide net is getting such a great response from schools out of the NE cluster–her D has a higher gpa than your D from a prep school, and a lower SAT. She is being waitlisted at the more selective NE schools including Columbia, Barnard, NYU, Cornell, UPenn but being offered some merit money outside of the area. Her only southern denials were GT and UVA (despite a 3.5+ gpa at a tough prep school).
Unfortunately, most of her choices were the same schools that everyone wanted, and she is waitlisted at some schools where here stats should make her a likely admit. </p>

<p>My boys commute an hour and 15 minutes each way to school and the older one is often not home until after 10pm when he is working on a performance (which is most of the time). There are a number of kids in his situation. When we lived in Westchester, there were a group of boys who commuted to Regis, and they had over an hour each way to get there, Though I thoroughly sympathize with your D’s schedule, I know too many kids living those hours to feel that any highly selective school is going to give it much of a thought, and to bring it up, it has to be done very delicately so that it does not sound like complaining. Better really, that the GC brings it up in her write-up. </p>

<p>From her list as of now, I would say it is a nice variety with some high reaches and some pretty good matches. With a strong app and interest there are some schools that will certainly accept her. I don’t think Penn State is going to be a problem if she gets the app out early. The problem is the honors college and merit money as gpa does rigidly play in the qualifications for that. </p>

<p>Good luck to you and your D.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I would add to the thought that the major NYC public magnet schools are VERY well known among the college and university admissions offices. The competition in those schools will definitely be given extra weight in the consideration of the app. at many, if not most, of the country’s best schools – especially schools that are looking for a diversity of cultural experience. My wife tells the story of being an at info session event for a college when the adcom found out one of the kids was from Boston Latin (a similar public “exam” school). The adcom’s face lit up and begain chatting her up like she was a famous movie star or something.</p>

<p>Your daughter is right to some degree. It can also be effective to be at the very top of the class in a less selective high school. Either background can work. But, at this point, that is irrelevant. Transfering high schools would be the worst of both approaches because she would neither be a grad of a very well known NYC magnet or valedictorian of the local school. Plus, she’s getting a better education, which is what really matters.</p>

<p>Don’t worry, she’ll do fine. BTW, I think you are on the right track to figure out a way to work the commute into the essay. My daughter needed to communicate a similar commute for an extracurricular activity, so she started her essay in the train station, dashing from the commuter train to her subway connection and ended her essay with some reflections going through her mind on a train ride home.</p>

<p>Not sure about the college list. There seems to be a big hole in the middle, say between Syracuse and Columbia. Also, I think you want to consider colleges where a kid from a famous NYC exam school will be a little more out of the ordinary. Expanding the horizons south or west a bit will accomplish that and increase the odds of merit aid.</p>

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<p>Yankeegirl: I went to one of those high schools many years ago. Don’t let her transfer. New Dorp usually has great footbtall teams but a degree from there doesn’t carry the same weight (even valedictorian) as Brooklyn Tech.</p>

<p>Note, however, that Princeton, Columbia, and even NYU are very unpredictable for most applicants. On top of that, they will be getting many applications from your D’s school including from many students with even better GPA and SAT. Your best bet, especially financially, is to look for schools that will be very happy to get an applicant like her, to the point of awarding merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Consider Brandeis, for example - OK, it’s in New England but is just outside of Boston. Just opened a new center for investigative journalism. Her SAT score alone may be worth some merit aid. And it’s a fine academic school overall.</p>

<p>Syracuse, of course, has a fine journalism school, but consider the possibiity that on reaching college she may change her major. In college one becomes exposed to some subjects that one has never had any contact with. So consider whether Syracuse would still be a good school for her, in general.</p>

<p>Don’t know much about journalism programs, but another good school that you should consider is Drexel. </p>

<p>Good luck with it all; for perspective, remember that you are only at the beginning of the project, and be sure that she keeps her grades where they are.</p>

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<p>Hi again- Just an afterthought. Cornell has a Communication major in the Agriculture and Life Science College (CALS). It’s not exactly “journalism” but it may meet your d’s needs. My older d is at Cornell in Labor Relations. Cornell is a tough school to love because it can seem so big and confusing–but if you find the right program it’s fantastic. Plus the Ag. school’s tuition is less for NYS residents (around $17,000 tuition). I suggest that if you are going to look at Ithaca College, you may as well look at Cornell as it’s just “down the road” from each other.</p>

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<p>Yankeegirl49 - I’m with the above posters who suggest your daughter may simply be tired. My DD is in a similar situation; an hour commute each way, five hours of homework each night, major school extracurriculars evenings and weekends, etc. I often reminded my D to focus on the positives, and not let the rigor of her chosen journey distract her from her goals. She applied to six near-Ivys and was accepted at her three top choices. Each offered merit scholarship with admission. I think it’s fair to say that in her case, enthusiasm for the schools and their academic programs overcame any negative effects from grade deflation.</p>

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<p>You guys are the best!!!
D has wanted a journalism major since 6th grade, I really don’t think she’s gonna change. I know most do, but if you knew her, you’d understand why. She is actually going to double major in Poly Sci. She looked at Cornell, but it wasnt what she wanted, though she would love the school.
In speaking with her Sr friends who have simillar stats, she really should see she has nothing to worry about. They have all gotten into lots of their top choices including Ivys, and they got a lot of merit money from various schools. Her 2 best friends got full scholarships to Dickenson & American, both with almost the same stats as my D. D loved American and she would be thrilled with a nice merit package from them, she’d leave tomorrow if she could…lol.
The thing is, she doesn’t complain…her essay is going to be much like the one mentioned in a post above about the commute, she has already started a rough draft.
We are all aware of the competitiveness of admissions and the scholarship programs. Nothing is a given, but she is going to do her best which is all anyone can ask.
I don’t think she would ever really transfer HS, but I wanted to know what else to tell her. Everything written here will make her feel better.
I wish she would be more open to some of the smaller LACs, away from the mid atlantic states, but she isn’t.
She knows she is going to get into some if not most of her choices, again she just got discuoraged by SUNY school and their honors program.</p>

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<p>A) Your daughter IS tired, junior year is rough anywhere, and with her schedule and commitments, plus the commute, I’m sure she is exhausted.
B) Her best bets, given financial constraints plus the GPA issue, is to widen her net. I know she says she doesn’t want the South, but get her a car and get her down here, have her read some of these posts, and look at the GC’s book. Make an appointment with the GC, discuss your concern about the need for merit money and the difficulty with state schools,then ask the GC to meet with your daughter and suggest broadening her search. I know my daughter was almost impossible to live with around this time, they just get worn out, as well as grouchy, she may not listen to you or want toread this forum, but she will probably hear the GC.
3)Search for threads on journalism, there are some good discussions about majoring in journalism at a larger school with a School of Journalism, vs going to a smaller school, majoring in Eng, etc and actually doing journalism on the school paper (freshmen need not apply for the paper in some places) - there are pros and cons to each.
4) Have her register for an ACT, if her SAT score is improved, then don’t worry about it, otherwise ACT can help many kids because it plays to their strengths.</p>

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<p>Hi Again,</p>

<p>When I attended (many moones agao) Brooklyn Tech I had a 30 minute commute. I had friends who went to Sheepshead Bay and Dewey who endured the one hour commute. My duaghter commuted an hour and change from Queens to her H.S. in the city (Yes, she had friends from S.I. making the commute). The net-net, everyone who goes to a selective H.S. in NYC commutes, unless there is something truly exceptional about her commute it will be a been there done that as far as readiing essays. </p>

<p>Your daughter should also take in mind that with over 1 million kids in the NYC public school system there is literally going to be well over a hundred thousand public school kids from NYC applying to college at the same time your daughter does, then you have to add the privates, along with kids from L.I. and Westchester county into the mix. </p>

<p>If she has her sights set on one small area she is going to be severely limited this time next year when the admission decisions come in. If she’s got a major hook, then that’s a different story, but she is probably a nice BWRK so it will be take a number and get in line. If you can check the geographic locations at many schools in the NE and the IVies, you will see the largest contigency of kids will come from NY. In my daughter’s (a freshman at Dartmouth) class NYS has the largest amount of students(164) with 75 students from NYC alone. One of the things that the GC at their school told them was there are schools in the midwest and the south that would love our kids, but they don’t even want to consider those schools. remember -Columbia does not have an undergrad program in Journalism.</p>

<p>Personally I think 5 hours away from home doesn’t matter if you are flying or driving (and you won’t be driving every break to pick her up). Daughter is a 3.5 hour drive from home but 7 hours on the Greyhound (reads, naps, talks to freinds) but they adapt.</p>

<p>Just did a quick Search on Cc for Journalsim and Alexandre(CC Moderator, well versed in a lot of schools) says : </p>

<p>Northwestern is #1 at the undergraduate level. Other top programs include:</p>

<p>Missouri-Columbia
NYU
Syracuse
UNC-Chapel Hill
USC
UT-Austin</p>

<p>Linkl from U.S. News</p>

<p>The following schools offer Journalism. Click on an institution’s name to see a brief profile. To learn more about its academic offerings and see a full profile of information, from admissions data to student body demographics. <a href=“http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/majors/brief/major_9-04_brief.php[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/majors/brief/major_9-04_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This should give you a jumping off point which to do your research.</p>

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<p>Sybbie…thanks so much for taking the time to provide that info.
We are aware that lots of NYC kids commute, but D is a very good writer and is hoping to write an eaasy about the commute but with a different twist…we’ll see, she hasn’t shared it with me yet.
The thing is, I think she is just applying to Princeton to see if she gets in, it isn’t like its her dream or anything. She could care less about prestige or rankings, she just wants a school in an area that she likes, with a program thta she wants. She doesnt have a specific “type” of school, just wants one that she sees as a fit. With NYU/Columbia, she is applying with hopes of the Chase scholarship, if it wasnt for that I don’t even know if she’d apply. She says if she can go to one of those schools for free, it would be awsome, but if we have to pay for it she’d rather be outside NYC. I know chances are slim with all the apps, but you never know. I know someone whose kid got into NYU with the Chase Scholarship with a 1200 SAT and 3.4 GPA from a local HS and no different EC’s than anyone else. She won’t know if she doesn’t try.
Right now her top choices are American, Ithaca and Syracuse, all 3 which should be matches when her entire app is taken into consideration. She would go to any of those in a second.
I understand what everyone is saying about expanding the area she’s looking in, but if she doesn’t think she’ll be happy elsewhere I won’t force the issue.
I have also read the journalism threads and they make a good point, but that is what she wants to major in and again I won’t force the issue, besides she is planning on a double major in Poly Sci, so it isn’t as if she’ll only have the journalism, she’ll have the poly sci as well.</p>