Discriminatory? Or normal and reasonable?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>Well, in the first place, even if I had a clear cut discrimination case, I wouldn’t sue: one, life’s too short, time is not a renewable resource, and I’m not interested in spending my time that way. Two, it makes more sense to go find some other property. Three, clearly the gentleman has no assets that would make a lawsuit worthwhile. Four, I’m not interested in suing someone just because they used poor judgment in a manner that, at the end of the day, doesn’t really hurt me. Actually, it hurts him more - I’m a far, far safer bet than 95% of the other people he may consider, and a credit and background check would have demonstrated this. </p>

<p>I think had he said “I need to make sure you can actually pay the rent” and confined his questions to that, I would have been very understanding. After all, I own a home too, and if I ever needed to depend on rental proceeds to retire other obligations I would have the same concerns. </p>

<p>Where we part company is the line-crossing into “because you’re a single parent” - as if that alone somehow marginalizes a person’s ability and intent to pay bills - and “how much does the U cost” etc.</p>

22

<p>A credit check alone will not tell much about your current income although it will give some idea of expenses except college tuition. Income needs separate verification from the current employer and most large LL’s require a certain rent coverage ratio to qualify and that would include a large tuition expense. Also a criminal check is highly recommended.</p>

23

<p>"Where we part company is the line-crossing into “because you’re a single parent” - as if that alone somehow marginalizes a person’s ability and intent to pay bills - and “how much does the U cost” etc. "</p>

<p>While I understand that you found his questions intrusive, I still understand why he asked them. Renting to a two-income family would seem like a safer bet than renting to a one-income one. College costs do take a large chunk out of most family’s budgets. </p>

<p>In particular, women single parents do struggle more financially than do men, who tend to make more income and not also be dependent upon child support that often doesn’t come (as is the case with women who often don’t get court-ordered support from their kids’ dads).</p>

<p>At least he asked you those questions and then apparently made his decision based on your answer. He could have just learned you were the single parent of a college student and then rejected you based on assuming you would be able to pay the rent. Instead, he made his decision based upon the facts of your situation.</p>

<p>If, however, you don’t like him, found his questions rude, intrusive, etc., then it probably would be best to find another landlord.</p>

24

<p>As a small-time LL I must add that what we most want is someone reliable and likely to take decent care of the place. I will charge less rent to land a good quality tenant. Also if you have not been burned yet as a small LL you probably will be and it can really hurt. You learn the old Reagan creed–trust but verify. NEVER believe a sob story.</p>

25

<p>Another attorney weighing in here. Who cares about what’s legal in a market where good rentals are hard to find? So he’s insecure and maybe a bit ignorant. Smile, offer him 3 months upfront to put him at ease, and enjoy your new home!</p>

26

<p>I learned to be suspicious of people offering large amounts of cash up front.</p>

27

<p>This man’s concern is money, so it is probably the answer. My husband and I are black, he a thriving MD and I’m an attorney for a large firm. We needed to rent a house while we added onto our own. Found a perfect one in a neighborhood with few blacks. The owner was not moving quickly and we sensed racism. Knowing that we would not change that, and wanting the gem of a rental, we took out the checkbook. He was racist all the way to the bank and we have a lovely rental a few blocks from our remodel.</p>

28

<p>LAST - I guess if you are comfortable with the house and want it - and the landlord is open to you renting - I would agree with KIRMUM - Hope all goes well - let us know the outcome :)</p>

29

<p>Latetoschool- I have been on both sides of the rental market. I know after working in it for lots of years you can become cautious and after awhile you only begin to believe half of what you hear.
If the market is tight where you are I might suggest that you go to each viewing prepared with some documents that you can readily produce if you have interest. One possibly being a bank statement and a copy of your credit report.
The landlord might also have been trying to find out if you were really going to be living in the home or was your Daughter going to add roommates. I had a mother come in to rent a house with her son. She was similar to you and out of the area about 2 hours away but was going to move up here. In the end she never moved in and the son ended up renting rooms to others including the dining room. All a violation of the lease. People bring pets in when they say they don’t have any. Pets tear drapes, screens and ruin carpet.
Unfortunately the bad tenants make it hard for the good. This gentleman sounds like an owner not a property management company who is trying to find a good tenant but has some poor skills.
I hope you find what your looking for.</p>

30

<p>I read the story as the LL is small time and sincerely concerned about paying his bills and probably not as well-versed as he ought to be in the knowledge of what he should and should not say, I would not take offense, just realise that is where he is coming from.</p>

<p>We rented a home a couple of times for college stuff wherein we offered the first year’s rent up front in exchange for a 10% discount, some took it wanting the cash up front, others realised that interest rates were such that it was better to take the rent over time, but I was content to be done with the whole thing right up front.</p>

<p>I have been on both sides of the issue, both a renter and a property manager. As a renter I always got every penny back in deposit, expect with one LL who was a friend of a friend and found every excuse he could to nickel and dime me on everything, because of the friendship complication I did not fight him, but I was very careful in the future to not be connected with friends so closely…no one else messed with me that way. On the other hand, I have seen some amazing damage and if the tenant does stop paying the rent it can take quite some time to evict them, all if which is time no rent is coming in, so he is not outrageous to have concerns.</p>

31

<p>Mom60, that makes some sense. I own our home about a 90 minute flight from here, and I do now recall him asking “how did you come to be in this city”, which led me to explain I have an office in this city, and by the way, there’s a daughter in this city as well.</p>

<p>I’m remembering that I was at an open house for another property a few weeks ago (didn’t like it - price weird, and property sketchy) - a realtor pulled me aside, not knowing I was a parent, and said “the thing to do is buy property regardless of condition anywhere you can around the U. You’ll love renting to the college kids - their parents will pay ANYTHING, and they’re clueless, so you can get away with charging as much rent as you want”. </p>

<p>Ugh. Serpent. </p>

<p>Kirmum, thanks, your post made me feel better, although I am sickened and disgusted at the racism and that you had to endure it. </p>

<p>JeepMOM, will do. I just left a meeting with him; I filled out an application and gave him a deposit equal to one month’s rent, although I suspect the presence of the deposit doesn’t stop him from advertising for and finding married couples etc. Didn’t have time to talk to him much because I have a plane to catch, so, I decided whatever happens, happens; if it doesn’t work and I cannot collect my deposit back no big deal I’ll eat the loss and we’ll just keep looking. I have no idea when I’ll find out - I forgot to ask when the decision comes back. Hopefully he calls me. </p>

<p>Perhaps I’ll view this all differently if I ever decide to finally rent out my house.</p>

32

<p>You will-and you will have some sleepless nights worrying about busted pipes and a million other things that can go wrong that you as the owner would notice and fix but a tenant—maybe not. For example we noticed a small amount of water in our garage under the house. We had it checked out and found a pipe leaking two floors up. If we had not taken action quickly there would have been $1000s in damages to the structure of the home. Would a tenant even note a little bit of water in the garage area?? Maybe not.</p>

33

<p>People have a right to ask dumb questions, you have a right not to answer. If you’re getting a bad vibe about this situation… move on elsewhere. A gut feeling should be enough to let this place go. I try to always have a choice of three. It gives me a bit of control of the situation knowing I have backup choices. </p>

<p>Personally, I would move on, because if the guy already made me feel uncompfortable from the get go, would I possibly over react later to something innocent? For me, yes I probably would take issue with something down the road. I don’t want or need the hassle.</p>

34

<p>Well, I will be moving on. </p>

<p>After hearing nothing all week, I wrapped up my last meeting today and called him. Well, credit, etc., all came back fine, and landlords in that city gave excellent references. I knew they would, and I know my credit is “fine”.</p>

<p>But, he said “I really want to help you out. The rent - that’s a LOT of money” he said, “are you REALLY sure you can afford it?”</p>

<p>I responded that this is the second time he raised the issue - why, I asked, was he STILL asking, since he has my credit report, financials, etc., and he can clearly see my income, as well as debt? </p>

<p>He didn’t have an answer.</p>

<p>So I asked “is it that you’re not comfortable renting to a single mother”. </p>

<p>He actually admitted that that was so. He actually said this: “even <em>I</em> wouldn’t be able to afford that rent - it’s a lot of money and I know that I would not be able to pay it, so, it’s hard for me to see how you can”.</p>

<p>I told him that I’m not in the habit of shopping for things that I cannot afford, as my credit history demonstrates. referenced back to my financials, which he has, and that he admitted he verified, and back to my rental references, which he admitted are perfect. I questioned him further and then he admitted that he isn’t comfortable renting to a single mother, and that he doesn’t really think that I do and can actually earn enough money to pay for the house. A man, maybe, because men can get money, but a single mom? Hard for him to see, he said.</p>

<p>I said “you don’t think women can earn high incomes? - especially when the evidence is right in front of you, and you have even verified it?”</p>

<p>He said well but you have a child. </p>

<p>So, I offered to withdraw my application. I said that I would not want him to even consider renting to a tenant that he is not 100% comfortable with, and, I am not comfortable entering into a business relationship with a party who does not comprehend the economic viability of professional women, with or without children. </p>

<p>He sounded VERY relieved and said he will mail back to me my deposit check. Where should he send it - to my house that I own, or to my rental address? </p>

<p>I told him to please keep it and consider it my gift, since, it sounds as if he could use it. I told him it’ll cover a class in economics, or perhaps mathematics might serve him better. Ethics, even. Or perhaps put it in the bank and keep it as a cushion - sounds like he needs it, and I, on the other hand, won’t miss it, and can always make more. LOTS more. </p>

<p>He said no he couldn’t possibly do that, he’ll mail it back, which address? </p>

<p>I told him well, if he doesn’t wish to spend the money on a class that might teach him something about female parents in modern society, perhaps he could put it in the bank, save it for that rainy day when the childless couple he rents to defaults or pays late, but, if he really wants to send it back to me, pick either one of my addresses, doesn’t matter; then I wished him happy holidays, and hung up.</p>

35

<p>I hope you felt better after that, what a dope!</p>

36

<p>LTS, I’m sorry you had such a bad experience. Just out of curiousity (and you certainly don’t have to answer if you think it’s an unfair or intrusive question), has it caused you to re-evaluate any of your earlier positions on gender bias?</p>

37

<p>

I think he is in a difficult place - between a rock and a hard place - and you could have handled it differently. He sounds like he is a lower income person than you, and he is worried about you being able to pay the money so that he can provide for his dying mother. Let’s have a little compassion for the guy! If you wanted the house, why didn’t you just offer to pay him 6 months rent up front, to put his fears to rest. Those of us who earn less money have trouble understanding how you guys can earn so much and afford so much.</p>

38

<p>Kind of irrelevent, but I think it’s probably his mom’s house he is renting for her. It seems odd that a guy owns a house but couldn’t afford the rent on it himself, unless there’s a housing crunch that’s caused rents to skyrocket–and it sounds like the house is fully paid for, since he’s not using the rent to pay for a mortgage.</p>

39

<p>Anxiousmom, you’re absolutely right. I knew I could have handled it differently, and furthermore, if I had, I would be moving us into that house. As the words “I’ll withdraw my application…” were coming out of my mouth, I had a picture in my mind of Kirmum’s post where she and her husband offered three months rent to the racist landlord, and even as I’m effectively blowing him off, I’m thinking, “if I used Kirmum’s strategy this can have a different outcome…” </p>

<p>But my brain just simply rebels against such a strategy. I knew I could swing this my way, but, I just couldn’t make myself do it. Perhaps it’s immaturity on my part, or a refusal to accept that some people just have a very incorrectable worldview. Mostly, though, I think that I should not have to use my money that way. After all, it’s MY money. I earn a LOT of it, but, I also work ridiculously hard for it, and I manage it very carefully. I do not think that I should have to pay rent differently than any one else, especially when there is a significant amount of evidence available through third parties (credit reporting agencies, prior landlords) that proves conclusively that I pay obligations in full, on time, and I do not default on obligations. After all, the couple he will eventually rent to will not have to offer six months of rent in advance, so, why should I? In Kirmum’s example, it’s a little bit different, because she and her husband were in need of a temporary solution while their primary residence was being remodeled - so in that situation, it made sense. When their home is finished and ready for re-occupancy they will move back into it. The racist landlord was a temporary relationship, needed to cause a solution with a firm end date. My situation is different - I expected to live in this house for two or three years, maybe even longer, until I make a decision as to what, and where, to buy, and part of that strategy is including renting or selling my existing home. So a longer term relationship, and that relationship needs to work well. </p>

<p>I also don’t think that I should have to “sell” myself as a strategy to compensate for the absence of a husband. This man put a product on the market; I offered to buy it, and demonstrated conclusively that I could do so. End of discussion. It’s a business transaction, not a marriage. </p>

<p>As to understanding how people earn so much, one way is to start with doing something one loves, and do a LOT of it. Example, my week was something like this: flew to Washington late Monday night, arrived at midnight, checked into hotel, asleep by 2:00 a.m. Up at 4:00 a.m., conference calls with participants in other time zones. First in-person meeting at 7:00 a.m., meetings all day. Straight from last meeting to Congressional reception; from that party to another party. Back in hotel room by 1:00 a.m. - repeat process all the way through Friday night (I landed at 1:00 this morning). So like 20 hour days for five days straight. This week I attended over 18 meetings and made appearances at nine separate Christmas parties and four receptions(although everyone else refers to them as “holiday parties” but I refuse to conform but of course that is beside the point). 95% of the persons I interact with will result in revenue at some point or another. That’s not counting all the email I answered between 3:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m., etc. That’s how I work. I have not taken a vacation or sick day or day off in over 10 years. Of course, there are far easier ways, I am sure. But this is my way, it’s a riotous amount of endless fun, and I love every minute of it. I could of course do some sort of traditional 9-5 job, but, that would not be anywhere near as much fun. </p>

<p>As to how this property owner views people and money, he drives a brand new mercedes, lives on the 42nd floor of a very expensive high rise in a rather expensive area of the city, and is an interior designer serving the very weathly or otherwise well-off. He likely generates more revenue than me - though this is a guess because I do not understand his market. The gentleman is also homosexual, which sort of makes it hard to understand why he would take such a biased viewpoint. </p>

<p>But it doesn’t matter - game over. I will find some other house and some owner who understands that women, even single mothers can and do earn sufficient income to rent nice real estate.</p>

40

<p>latetoschool-
Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. I’ve been on both sides of this as well-- indirectly. I’ve had rental property that was a nitemare, with sob story after sob story from tenants who had good credit histories when we rented to them. We finally sold it to a single mom and took a second mortgage (let her assume ours). She and her kids ended up trashing the place, the dau’s BF kicked in the basement door and put holes in the wall, and they ultimately moved out (after she lost her job), defaulting on the loans. Since the we had let her assume our loan, we had to foreclose, clean it up,pay several mos of missed mortgage payments(since the first loan was originally in our name) and resell it, at a significant loss. What a hassle. </p>

<p>On the other side, my s lived off campus last year. The landlord was a royal pain in the a$$, rarely returned calls to handle repairs, etc. Then my s had sublesees in with him during the summer (all summer interns). Thats another nitemare story for another time. It all eventually worked out, for the mostpart, but what an incredible hassle. Pespole say all sotrts of things when they sign papers… but things change.</p>

<p>So, as unpleasantas the landlord’s q’s were. I can fully understand his trepidation. Howebver,its a shame he lost such a potentially great tenant. His loss. I doubt he’ll find a better one.</p>