Discriminatory? Or normal and reasonable?

latetoschool · December 16, 2006, 10:46am

Jym626, I can sort of understand it too. D’s first apartment off campus was simply a horrific nightmare, with the landlord being completely irresponsible, unresponsive, and - just horrible. Current landlord is somewhat better, means well but totally incompetent.

We made the decision to rent our house, but, I have taken no action on doing so. My immediate neighbors have owned their homes 18 and 20 years respectively; they are obsessive about keeping property in pristine condition, and like the quiet, calm, peaceful setting of our community.

Now, I don’t like my neighbors - don’t associate with them and really don’t want anything to do with them from a friendship perspective. In the ten years I’ve owned my house, I’ve endured more than enough catholic bashing, planned parenthood flyers on my door, etc. They’re also obsessively nosy and intrusive. However, I do very much respect my neighbors, and share their desire to take excellent care of property and the community, and we all recognize that there is an economy of scale when people work together, so we do enter into group decisions - for example, we’ll go in together on services such as painting, tree trimming, pest control, lawn care, etc., plus we share information and referrals with each other re plumbers, electricians, etc. We have entered into many such group transactions over the past several years and even though I don’t particularly care for them as people I absolutely DO respect where they’re coming from. But I’m the subordinate person in the relationship, mostly because they were there first, so, how it works is that they’ll approach me with a project, I’ll agree and pay my share of the money for the tree trimming or pest control or whatever it is they want to do, and it gets done. I recognize that as off-putting as my neighbors are sometimes, their motivation is quality and value of their property, and the general safety and security of our neighborhood. I’d rather have neighbors like this vs. neighbors who do not take care of things.

So when considering renting my house, I will have to find a tenant who is a good “fit” in this environment - someone who my neighbors will be comfortable and happy with and hopefully even someone who my neighbors will be able to enjoy socially and become friends with. That means that in evaluating potential tenants I will have go far beyond financials and credit reports and use subjective criteria to decide who gets to rent. Also, the tenant has to be happy, too, or, a good tenant will not stay. Given that, and especially considering that I cannot decide who will be the best possible fit, let alone working through that process without engaging in discriminatory behavior, it’s easier for me to just simply let the house sit empty. I do not want to risk making my neighbors unhappy or uncomfortable - I wouldn’t want it done to me - and that’s before I even get into the issues of taxes, potential loss of homestead exemption, etc.

I’ve also had friends rent their homes, and they used things like credit checks etc. and have come away with horrible experiences. Actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t had anyone say to me yet “I absolutely love my tenants and renting my property has been a wonderful, profitable experience”.

Mauser · December 16, 2006, 1:11pm

LTS, I am not sure I still understand the problem that you had with that LL. He, the owner of the property, was to undertake a financial risk. His goal is to make money on the transaction. That means the onus is on you to meet his expectations, and if he feels you will not be able to pay him, that is enough reaon for him not to rent out.

lealdragon · December 16, 2006, 1:47pm

Wow, how do you ever see your family? And you are lucky that you can get by on so little sleep! Your schedule would be extremely stressful for most people. You’re obviously ok with it because you love it so much.

A lot of what I was going to say has already been said. So I will just say this: Different people have different strategies for making decisions. Some are by the book - get the financial reports and make an objective, impersonal decision based strictly on the numbers. Others operate in a more intuitive fashion; by getting to know the person and then trusting in one’s instinct. It sounds like this guy was in the latter category and that’s just the way he operates. This is evidenced by the fact that he opened up to you about his personal situation with him mom more than he needed to. The ‘impersonal strictly business’ type person would not have told you anything about his personal circumstances. This guy is obviously the type of person who likes to get to know his tenants, and operates more on feelings than on cold, hard numbers.

If you are going to have to deal with someone on a regular basis, it’s probably a good idea to be sure you can understand where he’s coming from and at least be willing to tolerate it if he sees things differently. If you are the ‘cold, hard numbers’ type person and he is the ‘touchy-feely’ type person then it’s probably not a good match (unless both people are willing to stretch themselves) and could cause other problems down the road.

He probably would have asked different (but equally seemingly discriminatory in different ways) questions of a married couple. It’s easy for us to make things bigger than they are when we have faced discrimination before and are defensive about something. For example, I homeschooled my son and I tend to get defensive quickly if anyone says anything anti-homeschooling. But after I think about it, I realize that the person just isn’t very educated about homeschooling, and meant no disrespect by their comments. Then I can realize that I was making a big deal out of nothing. Yeah, compassion (and understanding that the person is operating from a different perspective) is a good thing. The fact is that, just as I am in a minority of people who homeschool, you are in a minority of single mothers who has achieved such a high degree of financial success. It’s understandable that the guy couldn’t quite wrap his brain around it! People who do things differently (like me homeschooling and you working so many hours and making so much $$) are pioneers and can usually expect some reactions from people which might, at first glance, appear discriminatory, but in reality are just because we represent something that they are simply not used to.

I think the bottom line is that we all make choices about how much we are willing to tolerate in order to get what we want. You love your work and are wiling to tolerate not getting much sleep and not having days off. That’s not something I personally would choose to do, for any amount of $$, but I am a different person than you and neither choice is better than the other; just different. Kirmum was willing to tolerate the racism to get the house, and had the last laugh. You seem to feel more strongly about it so weren’t willing to do that. Neither is good or bad, but just the way it is. It’s just a process of knowing what’s important to us personally. Your personal principles were more important than the house in this case, and you are entitled to that decision, just as the landlord was entitled to ask whatever questions he thought were necessary to make his decision. His decision was just as important to him as yours was to you. I don’t think it was discriminatory, at least not in an intentional way. Just looking at the numbers, even though your income is higher than that of many married couples, it is still a single income, and if a single income unexpectedly ends for some reason, there isn’t a backup like there is when there are 2 incomes. You undoubtedly have substantial savings, which could serve as that backup, but he probably didn’t think it thru to that degree.

conyat · December 16, 2006, 2:03pm

I can’t speak for LTS who seems to be self-employed, but as a single parent, I take my employer’s short term and long term disability insurance whenever I can afford to. During your working years, your earning capacity is really your most valuable asset. So I’d argue that’s my fallback.

It’s pretty clear though that this LL was not going to rent to a single mother no matter what LTS did, proved or showed (short of giving him 6 months up front, and maybe not even then), just as some employers are not going to promote women past a certain point no matter how capable they may be.

Having rented out my home at one point to a family friend who turned into a no-grass-cutting, no toilet-scrubbing, deadbeat, I am somewhat sympathetic to the LL. But I wonder how many of us would still be as sympathetic if he were as reluctant to rent to a black or Hispanic professional as a female professional.

Northstarmom · December 16, 2006, 2:14pm

“But I wonder how many of us would still be as sympathetic if he were as reluctant to rent to a black or Hispanic professional as a female professional.”

Not wanting to rent to people purely because of their race or ethnicity is very different than not wanting to rent to a person because of very legitimate concerns about their finances. Clearly, a single parent of any gender who also is sending a kid through college is more of a risk than would be a two-parent family even if the two working parent family had the same income. If that single parent becomes ill, loses her job, her family income drops to 0, which isn’t the same for a two-parent family in which both parents have jobs.

lealdragon · December 16, 2006, 2:14pm

Eh, good point. But, even then, as kirmum pointed out, a black person or couple would still have had the option of accepting it or not. Unfortunately, the fact is that there are racist people our there as well as people who might not be consciously biased but their lack of education in a certain area or their own personal experiences predispose them to unreasonable biases. So we still have to decide what we’re willing to put up with to get what we want, regardless of whether it’s justified or not.

Northstarmom · December 16, 2006, 2:23pm

“I also don’t think that I should have to “sell” myself as a strategy to compensate for the absence of a husband. This man put a product on the market; I offered to buy it, and demonstrated conclusively that I could do so. End of discussion. It’s a business transaction, not a marriage.”

It’s always one’s choice to refuse to rent a place – either as the rentee or rentor – because one doesn’t like the owner or renter.

Whenever one is renting or even buying a place, part of what one is doing is selling oneself. This is true whether or not one has a husband.

I know people who have selected folks as buyers who offered less money than others just because the sellers happened to find the buyers to be more likeable. That could be because it looked like the buyers would take better care of the home or appreciated the home better or reminded the sellers of themselves when they bought the home.

Anyway, when it comes to transactions like buying and renting houses, more than money is involved.

Also, if a person is using the income to help support an ill parent, they understandably are going to need many more assurances and guarantees of a reliable income flow than would someone whose needs for that rental income are less crucial.

latetoschool · December 16, 2006, 5:27pm

Well, lesson learned, I guess. But I am troubled that for all of his obsession over the rent being paid on time, he was oddly uncurious about the source of my income, and by consequence he could not have been capable of assessing the stability of that income. Never asked any questions about what I do for a living or how long I’d been doing it, etc. For a peer entrepreneur I find that very telling. Instead all of his questions about my existing monthly obligations and the cost of D’s college. That tells me that the idea that a single parent is a perpetually low income entity is hard coded in his brain.

As to his ill parent, I know this is going to sound terrible and there’s no way to say it nicely, but, quite frankly, I have zero interest and simply do not care. It makes no difference to me if he has one or 20 dying relatives. I have no interest in the personal scenario of this or any other landlord. Bottom line, he put a product on the market, and I stepped up and offered to “buy” what he was “selling”. If I sign a legal agreement that says that I will pay $X on the first of every month, then, I am going to write that check every month, on time, as agreed, period, end of story, and where those funds are destinated or why they are needed have absolutely zero relevance to my commitment to paying on time, as agreed. He would get the rent money from me on time, every month, as agreed, regardless of if he earmarked it for dying mother or to make paper airplanes out of it.

As to the current tenant - the married couple who he clearly prefers? When I went to see the house the first time? The master bathroom was a disaster - they were using it for some sort of laundry room or something, and there were absolutely piles and piles of dirty clothing in the bathtub/shower area, thrown onto the floor, completely burying the toilet, etc. and other debris mixed in. The wife explained to me that they never used that bathroom and used it for sort of a catch-all area. The kitchen sink had several days worth of dirty dishes piled up and spilling over into the counter area. The garage was a disaster, and there were three dogs running in and out, with food and various stuff all over the place. In my mind I was calculating the time to clean thoroughly before move in and deciding I would need to hire a professional cleaning service. My appointment had been set days in advance; they could have at least tried to make things look a little nicer. But they didn’t. And in my experience, people who live in disarray or outright filth typically have similar disorganizations in other areas of their lives.

I have no idea if a couple is a better “risk” or not; I guess it’s logical to assume so because after all there would be two sources of revenue, not one.
But this man’s judgment is very poor, clearly.

Northstarmom · December 16, 2006, 5:38pm

"Well, lesson learned, I guess. But I am troubled that for all of his obsession over the rent being paid on time, he was oddly uncurious about the source of my income, and by consequence he could not have been capable of assessing the stability of that income. Never asked any questions about what I do for a living or how long I’d been doing it, etc. For a peer entrepreneur I find that very telling. Instead all of his questions about my existing monthly obligations and the cost of D’s college. That tells me that the idea that a single parent is a perpetually low income entity is hard coded in his brain.

As to his ill parent, I know this is going to sound terrible and there’s no way to say it nicely, but, quite frankly, I have zero interest and simply do not care."

I think that you’re mistakenly expecting that a person who’s renting out one house will have the savvy of, for instance, the professional manager of an apartment building. That’s simply not the case.

There are many reasons why someone with no interest or aptitude in entrepreneurship might become a landlord. For instance, I wouldn’t be surprised if the house that you were considering renting is his mother’s, and perhaps he couldn’t sell it until after he inherits it. Another possibility is that due to his own familial obligations, he doesn’t have the time to sell it now or may be so in need of immediate money for his mom’s expenses that he couldn’t handle waiting for the house to sell.

It is possible for someone who’s unsophisticated or even not very bright to become a landlord in the kind of situation that you’re describing. It’s also possible that someone who is facing a family crisis can’t think through things clearly.

Anyway, sounds like he wasn’t a landlord that you cared to rent from, so it was a good move on your part to look elsewhere. I wish you the best of luck in finding the kind of rental that meets your needs. It’s good that you’ve moved on. It would have been a waste of time to continue pondering this situation.

I feel sorry for the landlord, and I hope that he finds a renter that meets his needs.

latetoschool · December 16, 2006, 6:27pm

Northstarmom, I don’t feel sorry for him at all. Ignorance through lack of education or access to resources or other external matters might be understandable; voluntarily blinding oneself is absolutely unforgivable. This man is an idiot, clear and simple. I have zero sympathy and no tolerance for people who insist on remaining mired in ignorance, when overwhelming evidence that is contrary to their assumptions is made available to them, free.

For example, a simply google search on my name - something most ten year olds can do - (and I have a very unusual name with unique spelling, so google search produces only me, not 27 other people) - brings up my profession, speaking events in other cities, a sport I have been active in for years and competing in that is very expensive to enter, campaign finance contributions, and even some situations where I have nominated others for awards. Google profiles speak volumes because most of the time people cannot control what bleeds out into the internet about their past and current activities.

Plus, credit reports, drivers license records, landlord references, business references, banking references, etc. all tell the same consistent story.

But he didn’t explore any of these avenues or even ask any questions or express the least bit of curiousity about my source of income. Instead, consistently, he focused on “you’re a single mother - how can you afford this?”

I think what sent me over the edge during our call on Friday - he actually had the nerve to say this: “your rent is $X, your mortgage is $X, are you really sure you can afford this”. And this AFTER talking to my current landlords. Never once did he say “your income is $X” or “what is the nature of your income” or anything like that. He didn’t apply an evaluatory standard from the viewpoint of expenses against income, just expenses on their own merit. He actually said “plus how will you pay the electic bill”. I wonder if you can imagine my amazement. He remained focused on I am single, female, and a mother, and of course everyone knows that such persons are typically destitute and do not pay their bills on time and perhaps they never pay their bills at all. And clearly it is quite impossible for single mothers to earn much more than minimum wage.

So no, I do not feel even slightly sorry for this man. But I am appalled and disgusted by his ignorant assumptions.

conyat · December 16, 2006, 6:42pm

LTS, you’ve come a long way, baby.

kirmum · December 16, 2006, 6:47pm

Late, I do mergers and acquisition law. If the candidate with the most straight forward financials always got the company they were seeking to buy in a bidding war, I’d be out of business. There are always personal issues. There is always the need to best understand the “seller.” They will most often not be totally rational, will have biases and special needs. The winner will be the one that meets those needs.

In my own rental situation, there was nothing I could do to make a 60 year old man a non racist. All I could do was to assess if it would effect me if I rented his home. In the end my assessment was correct. I haven’t seen or heard from him since I rented the house. The check gets in before the first and everyone seems happy.

You can be politically correct or you can get what you want.

I have to say, for those facing this in the future, I felt sure from your post he would not rent the house to you. When a LL delays, especially in an active market, if you want the house you must do something out of the ordinary. As for the 3 months advanced rent, even for the most expensive rental (in the LA market this means 10K-20K/mo, obscene I know) figure out the interest, it’s minimal.

lealdragon · December 16, 2006, 6:59pm

“I have zero sympathy and no tolerance for people who insist on remaining mired in ignorance, when overwhelming evidence that is contrary to their assumptions is made available to them, free.”

I have felt the same way at times. For example, just recently I started a thread about 911 and offered some info, and it was amazing how many people preferred to remain ignorant, even though the info is readily available.

But, that’s the way it is. We’d have to rule out most of the population if we chose to associate with only those who are open-minded and fully utilized all the various sources of info available to them on myriad topics.

You are in a position in which you can pretty much choose the people you deal with, if I am understanding you correctly. You have chosen to not deal with this particular man. You are fortunate in that regard; most of us don’t have much choice in many situation, such as the workplace (or at least not without an unacceptable alternative like quitting the job). In those cases, in which you have a choice, I agree that moving on might be the best option. However, in situations in which it might not be feasible or desirable to avoid the ignorant person, then some compassion and understanding, whether deserved or not, are helpful in maintaining harmony and might even make it possible to coexist.

latetoschool · December 16, 2006, 7:41pm

All points well taken. Some small part of me regrets not handling it differently, as, if I had, I could have “sold” him. But, small bills, such as electric bills, HOA dues, car insurance, etc., I pay out far in advance. These are small amounts of money that I do not want to take the time to write a check every month, and I don’t like automatic debit situations, so, these are all paid out well into 2007. What happens is the power company or whoever lets the credit sit on account and the new bill comes showing the deduction against that credit. I think about electic bills - in two cities at two residences - maybe for < 60 seconds, once a year. I spend more time thinking about what are the best options for investing far larger amounts of money, so when this fool said to me “but how will you pay the electric bill” my brain simply snapped, and while intellectually I knew I should apply a Kirmum sort of strategy, my emotional response governed.

Thanks for lhe last two posts by the way; thanks especially Kirmum for your insight and points. I think I’ve learned something from this that hopefully I can keep my head on straight and apply to the next situation.

Hopefully I can soon find another house as good as better, and next time walk away with a signed lease.

conyat · December 16, 2006, 8:57pm

10 characters.

Discriminatory? Or normal and reasonable?

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