Most importantly I want to say, if your son is still a Brown student, I hope he and you are doing ok, not just physically but emotionally. The whole community is in my thoughts and I have a heavy heart about it all.
Also, your DCUrban mom point is a good one, and why I stay off that board and enjoy this one. There seems to be a broader range of perspectives here. And frankly, less meanness. On the curated kids point, my experience is that is only a subset, but that subset gets outsized attention when folks talk about admissions (ironically, not much differently than how the Ivys and “T10” get outsized attention when folks talk about what is required for admissions now). I know a bunch of Ivy League kids who are absolutely not curated. Ambitions and accomplished, sure. Talented and interesting, absolutely. But they did things they were interested in and also happened to naturally test well. No college counselors outside of school, but did test prep (I think of that as the norm now unlike in my day, but not as being curated). They did disproportionately go to private school, but that was true in my day too. And, may be a function of who I know with my kid going to private school her whole life (and me and my wife having attended private high school as well).
I also agree that there are things we can do to help our kids land in the best place for them and I like how you framed it. I think of it as there being several schools that could be the best place for any person (similar to how I believe there are numerous people who could be the best spouse/life partner for any person) For some, a HYPSM school or two absolutely should be one of the best places on the list. But for most (including many who are hell bent on getting admitted to one), they absolutely are not the best place. The overvaluing of prestige is a bugaboo of the upwardly mobile. It’s akin to the overvaluing of athletic prowess in some communities. Both have value, but some communities valorize them more than they deserve.
That’s an excellent summary of what happened to our oldest. Highest stats. Quality ECs in genuine areas of interest. The rejections came as a surprise 3 years ago. Looking back, it was mostly predictable.
I went to an Ivy in the 90s. By and large, my classmates and I were very, very good students and very intelligent and we are all very successful in our own ways. I worked very very hard in HS. Would I get in today? Probably, as I would be one of those kids today doing all the things to get in. Would my legacy roommate, who decided not to take a science in their senior year of HS, and didn’t take calculus? nope. Was I competing with as big a pool of qualified candidates? nope. The school was still disproportionately east coast (New England, mid-Atlantic, mid-west) even then. Yes, there were kids from all 50 states, but it was unusual to meet someone from TX or CA (and yes, the US population has changed, but not that much). When I applying, I was probably competing against 1/2 as many #1s in their class.
I agree with this. I don’t think the quality is different, but the accomplishment level before college is different. And, that has a profound impact on the types of high school lives students had. There were more kids who were obviously smart, interesting, but who had not yet accomplished much back in the day. They were spending more time doing the myriad teenage life things that do not impress anybody than students do now. ECs mattered way less back then, in part because the pool of remarkable applicants was smaller.
My take is I don’t think the rejections from these schools should ever come as a surprise. My D26 goes to one of the best independent schools in California. Tons of kids get into these schools that ambitious parents obsess over. Yet, top kids at her school get rejected from them every year. Outside of moving to Wyoming as someone else alluded to, there is nothing more those kids or those families could have done to secure a place at those schools. The vast majority of top quality students get rejected at these schools. Everyone should go in expecting that as a likely outcome. The counselors at D26’s school try to hammer that into the families. You are very competitive, it is still more likely than not it will be a no.
Edit: coaches top pick recruited athletes are one exception who understandably could be surprised at a no.
I struggle with being surprised at any HYPSM or even Ivy rejection. They accept thousands, of course, but I think someone is - arrogant isn’t the right word - but maybe over confident to expect an acceptance - especially at the top.
Yes, you can put forth the best package but I’d personally still be surprised. Of course, we all have different expectations. But I see plenty of kids on Ivy threads where kids like you describe get turned down and then others, seemingly not as strong, get in. I’m sure demographics play a large part - things like race (yes, it still counts, it just can’t be seen in a check box), first gen, socioeconomics, where from and so much more..
Regarding the unpredictability of how an incoming class is selected, I remember one AO giving the analogy of putting together a play. They need the lead actors, but also the support actors. They need a director, a writer, a musical cast, communication staff, and people who will design and build the sets. They want some from each category for the play to work.
AO’s for the most part are well trained professionals, not some rube off the street. They may not have majored in Renaissance Studies, but they recognize the academic potential of a kid who taught themselves Italian, found a history teacher at their HS who could supervise an independent study on the Medici family, and saved up money from their job at the local pizza store to buy a Greyhound bus ticket to Washington DC to see one of the few Leonardo paintings in the US.
Similarly, you don’t need to be a gymnast, a diver, or a golfer to parse the difference between a kid who likes to watch sports from the couch vs. a kid who devoted themself to participating at a high level.
And for truly unusual interests or achievements- there’s an ENTIRE staff of faculty and staff (athletic, artistic, scientific, historical) plus the archivists and librarians to tap. A kid writes an essay about her fascination with ancient flood narratives– you’ve got professors of Akkadian, Sumerian, Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, etc. who can read the essay and determine if it was downloaded from Wikipedia or if it’s the real deal.
If you’re “optimizing” for Stanford and such, keep in mind that expert faculty will be reviewing and scoring these materials. Like if the ability is at conservatory level, then it would be helpful… but it’s really only one piece of the application.
Assuming he already applied though if he’s a senior and arts supplement were already due?
Arts supplement completed and being submitted to everywhere that takes it.
I think you hit the nail on the head - music is only one piece of the application for our younger kid. Our older kid positioned it more as a centerpiece of the application which wasn’t “enough” at the most highly selective colleges for a non-music major.
For some kids a music supplement is a major reason for acceptance, with sufficient talent and accomplishments (and stellar LOR’s). And faculty don’t always review it either. You won’t know. Harvard only wanted a cue for 3 minutes. Resume and LOR’s are more important than at conservatories (free standing) and of course you have to meet benchmarks for ability to do the work.
I definitely agree team sports can require a high level of commitment. Of course for the right kid, they can also provide a long list of benefits.
So I don’t think there is going to be any universal rule about the right amount/type of sports for every kid. They’ve been great for my S24, but the point of that anecdote is that I think it worked out that way because he was making those decisions for his own reasons.
It seems to me one of the basic questions we have to answer as parents is whether there is any cost/risk to trying to “optimize” our kids in certain directions.
I personally tend to be very cautious about that sort of thing because I do think there is often a cost/risk.
And a cost that most parents don’t grapple with until AFTER the fact is watching the kid trudge off to “Plan B” college like it’s a four year sentence in a federal penitentiary.
I’ve seen kids acting like four years at JHU is the worst possible outcome because first they were deferred and then denied from Yale. I’ve seen parents carrying on for months as the kid tries to get excited about Middlebury when Dartmouth was supposedly “a lock”. Or the parents writing nasty letters to the alumni association at Princeton that “you’ll never see another penny from me” when the kid has to “settle” for Northwestern.
There’s a cost to all the managing and snowplowing and “guiding” (or was it manipulating?) and scaffolding. And feeling like you’ve failed your parents because you “only” got into Northwestern must be a hard thing to deal with.
Agree there is often a cost/risk. Personally, I’m not willing to hear the complaints at every family gathering for the rest of my life
I have so many anecdotes that demonstrate how bad things can get. I’ll share one…Neighbors kid went to Harvard as recruited swimmer, about a decade ago. Perceived this was driven by parents. This student hated their experience at H with the burning heat of a thousand suns. And never ever lets their parents forget this, including at gatherings of friends/neighbors, etc. I imagine it’s worse in private. This is still happening now, a decade+ later and said person otherwise seems to be a successful, seemingly well adjusted adult.
The best $ we ever spent with our oldest D23 was to hire a private college counselor. I hadn’t realized how much things had changed in 20+ years either as I’m a BC grad that also got into Notre Dame and Villanova with lesser stats than she had. At the first meeting she listed her Top 10 schools that included the three I just mentioned along with Clemson, Michigan and UCSB. He looked her in the eye and said “You might get into ONE of those 10. Now lets make a more realistic list.” That was the best advice and she is now a thriving Junior at a big SEC school with a huge merit scholarship. Cast a wide net!
