Divorce books/resources recommendations

Parent Cafe
1

I think I have bookmarked every Divorce discussion on CC for the last five years, so I clearly knew what was coming. Many thanks to @rosered55, @Midwest67, @oldfort, @KKmama and others for all of the shared insight.

H and I started dating our first year in college and I thought I was being smart by waiting until we were 25 and had survived a long distance relationship to marry, but it looks like thirty years is our limit. My view is that he never really got over having a chunk of my attention diverted from him to the kids. I think his view is that I didn’t live up to his expectations (which were very high!) So, I find myself trying to sort out how to get through this in the best possible way.

The kids (20 and 23) seem ok with the concept. I went back to work a while ago and earn something over the median for our area. H earns twice that. We have home equity, but neither of us would be able to keep the house and get D though her next two years in college, so we will sell.

We are both hoping not to pay a fortune for lawyers. H seems to think that asset equalization is the most I could ask for. I feel like I could expect some spousal support for some length of time (ten years?) given the length of the marriage and the career sacrifices I have made. (He believes that raising the kids myself was pure joy for me and I don’t deserve any consideration for that. Ha.)

So. What resources have you or your friends found helpful? I’m a researcher and H will generally respond to things in print (as opposed to me talking.)

We are in a community property state. He says he doesn’t want to make things difficult. Yes, we have done counseling (he dropped the last one because he thought she spent too much time talking about my feelings!) He is not awful, just stereotypical.

I would love a formula from an established source but I don’t know if such a thing exists. I am also interested in any sort of calculator that would help me compare upfront payments vs. payment streams (E.g., If I get him to pay $80K for two years of college from his share of home or stock option equity, what is that worth to me in a stream of payments over some length of time.)

I’ve always covered our finances and I don’t think he is hiding anything now (except possibly the value of those options, but I can figure that out.)

Any insight into buying vs. renting is also welcome. At this point, I will miss my remodeled kitchen more than I miss him. But the whole thing is exhausting.

Thank you all for being there.

2

Exhausting: yes!

You and your husband might benefit from working with a divorce financial analyst. My best friend and her husband had a session with someone a coworker of mine recommended, and my friend said it was very useful. I think that a person in this position would be able to help you figure out things such as the relative value of upfront payments and payment streams. I can PM you the name of the person they worked with, if you’re interested.

3

My state/county has strict guidelines for spousal support and a formula for calculating it. Example: https://divorce.laws.com/alimony/alimony-calculator-kansas
You might try a web search to see if your’s does too.

4

@rosered55, H identified a financial advisor locally and we had one phone meeting with her. She seems alright, but I would like to be able to walk in with my own numbers and sources to back them up. She gave us the assignment to create post marriage budgets which I thought was not particularly helpful. Personally, I budget by looking at my income and then figuring out how to spend that or less. It didn’t seem helpful for us both to list possible expenses without knowing what we had to spend. Maybe she intended to show me that it would be more difficult to live on only my income with no shared expenses? Typing this, I realize that I am looking to go in to the next meeting with my own proposal, I want the split to be fair, but I don’t want to be the one who has to convince H that it is. Maybe she would be helpful with that.

5

I’m sorry you are going through this. I have been divorced for nearly 22 years. I just erased about three paragraphs because I realize I don’t really have any good advise to give.

You asked about renting vs buying. I would advise renting at first until you decide where you want and/or need to be. I would advise you invest the equity from the sale of your house and use the interest to help pay the rent until you decide to invest the equity in a new home. That’s my plan for when I decide to downsize in a few years.

6

I’m pretty sure that the financial analyst my friend and her husband consulted didn’t ask them to prepare post-divorce budgets. That would make me uncomfortable, too. Do you know any lawyers who you could ask for recommendations?

Here is one list of resources; some, but not all, are Wisconsin-specific.
https://www.divfinsolutions.com/resources/

Here is a website that I’ve found useful:
https://karencovy.com/

And here’s another one that might help:
http://www.bedrockdivorce.com/

7

Thank you all for the links! I am bookmarking them to review when I have time. I have googled for “spousal support” guidelines for my state, but it bothers me that what I have found is all from law firms or other .coms, not from .gov or even .org sites.Really, I want data, not a lawyer’s statement.

Has anyone used the book “Divorce After Fifty” by Janice Green? It seems the most applicable, but I don’t know what the state to state variations are (author is in Texas, I am not.)

8

What is your situation with retirement funds? This is another area, especially if he has a pension, that you need to pay careful attention to. Easy to say that you don’t want to pay lawyers, but a lawyer is a big help in things like parsing your state’s laws for support, pension splitting, etc. It doesn’t sound to me like he wants to give you a very fair shake. If you stayed home to raise kids while he built his career, then your earnings now are likely taking a hit because of all those years out of the workforce. That is worth something.

9

Sent you a PM.

10

Make an investment in your future by investing in good, qualified advice. Things get pretty complicated when there’s retirement funds, options, property, spousal, community property states, new tax laws and implications, kids, etc., to consider. A good lawyer can point out things that never crossed your radar. While he says he doesn’t want to make things difficult, this could change. Protect yourself with good information.

11

My friend got a divorce after they had been married some decades. She got a portion of his pension and the pension administrator sends the checks straight to her without her having to keep asking.

I agree you need to find someone who will advocate for YOU. You gave permanently had your career take a backseat and deserve appropriate compensation. Anyone can make a huge budget — doesn’t mean it’s grounded in reality.

12

I’ve never gone through a divorce. But it shouldn’t matter what your budget is. What matters is a fair split for you both which doesn’t necessarily mean 50/50. He clearly doesn’t understand your career sacrifices.

13

I have a friend going through this right now. Hugs to you, it’s never easy.

My friend and her soon to be ex had to do a budget for her also, she’s retired so it complicates things. Most of their assets are in his name. She made her budget as she was living (sort of) in the style she had been living. He made a bare bones budget. I would make a budget of how much it would take to live how you are now.

14

This is just one data point. My friend was thinking about getting a divorce few years ago in NY state. She stayed home after they got married per his request. Her lawyer told her 1) she would have to move out because the large apartment they lived in was purchased by her H before they got married, and the H would only need to provide a suitable apartment (1 bedroom) for her, 2) he would most likely pay for her training (education) so she would be employable again and he would pay alimony for X number years (not forever) for her to be self supporting, 3) any assets he had before they got married, she would not be entitle to it. She didn’t get a divorce because she enjoyed their lifestyle.

Here are few things I would consider…You still have one D you need to pay expenses for next few years. I would take that amount out of your total assets and put it aside into a special account. The amount can be 2/3 from his equitable share and 1/3 from you (he makes twice as much as you). In the future your D’s education and other expenses would be paid out of that account. I would not trust your H that he will pay his share in the future. I don’t know what is the right number to compensate you for opportunity lost by staying home, but whatever the amount is, I would take it upfront rather than get it as an alimony. I think it is better for both of you. Better for you because you wouldn’t need to pay tax on getting assets upfront whereas alimony is taxable. Better for him because paying alimony would go against his credit rating and his ability to borrow in the future.

My view on financial divorce is you are not going to get everything you want and have it be completely equitable. Focus on important stuff to you and give in on other stuff. There is no benefit in dragging it out and paying a lot of money to lawyers/accountants. Try to do it as amiable as possible because you will always be parents to your kids.

15

@PNWedwonk

I’m sorry you are going through this difficult time. In my consultation with a lawyer, she asked for the general financial picture – income, assets, debt, retirement — and gave me a quick run down of what she thought I could ask for and expect.

She gave me hope that if and when I decide to proceed with divorce, it’s possible to come to an amicable agreement.

We don’t have much, so there is not a lot to fight over.

I’ve been talking to my therapist about the pros and cons of different living arrangements and scenarios. It’s difficult, for many reasons.

Hugs to you.

16

@PNWedwonk wrote:

“…She gave us the assignment to create post marriage budgets which I thought was not particularly helpful. Personally, I budget by looking at my income and then figuring out how to spend that or less. It didn’t seem helpful for us both to list possible expenses without knowing what we had to spend. Maybe she intended to show me that it would be more difficult to live on only my income with no shared expenses?..”

I did this. A post marriage budget. I started with looking at modest studios and one bedroom apartments in relatively safe areas, relatively close to work, and then added in other expenses to my spreadsheet. It was sobering.

For our situation, the drop in standard of living (from not a very high standard of living to begin with!) is a major hurdle to divorcing.

So, yes, maybe the financial advisor was seeing if the two of you had “run the numbers”.

17

You probably already know this, but it’s worth paying attention to it: The 2017 tax bill made a 180-degree change in the treatment of alimony for tax purposes, but effective for divorce agreements finalized in 2019 and thereafter (i.e., the change is not effective January 1, 2018, like most of the bill).

Under existing law, alimony payments are deductible by the payor and taxable to the payee. Since the payee was almost always in a lower tax bracket, that had the effect of putting a little government money on the table to subsidize alimony. That regime will continue to apply to divorce decrees finalized in 2018, no matter how long they go (probably unless they are substantially modified after 2018). If you don’t reach agreement in 2018, however, starting in 2019 alimony payments will be treated just like property division payments: no deduction to the payor, no income to the payee. There will probably be a revision in the formulas or calculators some states use to reflect those tax changes.

18

I was going to say what JHS said. In my state, courts are apparently very reluctant to order alimony to a spouse who has a job and is making more than minimum wage. Equitable distribution can be achieved by giving the less well off spouse a bigger share of marital assets.

You mentioned stock options. Even though they are not stock yet (and may never materialize), you could be entitled to a portion if they have been earned for services provided during marriage. Do not let your husband pull wool over your ears by saying that these are “just options worth zip.” We know how “zip” can turn into MSFT millionaires. Even if you can’t own options awarded to another person, there are ways to deal with their division.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jefflanders/2014/03/19/dividing-stock-options-and-restricted-stock-in-divorce/#28525e4731c8

19

My friend’s ex wife hired a forensic accountant to go over his assets and such. He was the most straight forward kind of guy, strict W2, no offshore accts and all. The only thing he had that was hard to value was his stock options from a start up we were both at. He has had it for so long and no one really knew how much they were worth. His ex wife had an inheritance that she wanted to keep, but would most likely be split between them. He asked me what he should do with the options. I told him to keep it in exchange for her inheritance. 6 months after the divorce was final, the company was sold for 1 billion and his options were worth close to 7 figures. He still thanks me. :slight_smile: I was very happy for him because his ex literally made his life miserable and tried to get everything she could.

20

I will advise having a consultation with a lawyer who will be aware of the laws in your state and protect your interests.
Even though your kids are grown up division of assets and finances gets complicated and you need someone that will advocate for you. Speaking from experience there is nothing worse than a poorly written settlement agreement.