<p>It also depends on what that ACT score represents. Showing up with a hangover from an after-football party and taking it cold, or prepping for months and 26 was the highest possible score achievable (based on that student’s aptitude). If the latter, then such student has zero chance at an allopathic med school since s/he’ll will not be able to score high enough on the mcat.</p>
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<p>On average, approximately one quarter of all Frosh matriculants are pre-health – higher at schools known for premed like Hopkins & Rochester. Only the hearty and gifted/talented manage to navigate the gauntlet (as ucb’s numbers show earlier).</p>
<p>I might get flamed for this, but I don’t think you need to be “scary smart” to do well in med school. You need to be able to memorize a lot of information quickly and retrieve it for tests in the first two years, and be able to retrieve it and use it to construct a diagnosis given presenting clues in the second two years of school and beyond. The ability to be an excellent diagnostician is key in school and residency. The ability to use one’s diagnostic skills and gut feelings mixed with compassion and patient relations is key in the rest of your career. For most physicians, once they choose a field, the number of possible diagnoses for most patients seen will shrink. You need to be able to diagnose and treat your bread-and-butter diagnostic cases, be a caring physician to your patients, and (here’s what imo separates the men from the boys; forgive me for that sexist phrase) be able to solve the rare diagnostic mystery in order to save/treat the “zebra” case (as opposed to the many “horse” cases). That’s also what makes medicine so. much. fun. </p>
<p>I’m a pediatrician. I’ll be honest-- most of the kids I see have something that I can diagnose in a couple of minutes. It gets to be easy. It’s the strange cases, or the really sick kid, or the kid whose life you save that makes you a good doctor, but no less the many patients who can count on you for reliable care, a listening ear, and being able to laugh your head off with when they tell you what their toddler said yesterday that makes you a great doctor.</p>
<p>My husband is in a field that people often think doesn’t need people skills (radiology). But he often is the person telling a patient they have cancer, or doing the biopsy or procedure that has someone scared out of their wits. People skills combined with excellent procedural skills and smarts (yes, scary smarts in his case) are all necessary, imo in his field and in most fields, even those that aren’t primary care.</p>
<p>Late back to the party but in case jym626 still needs to know…</p>
<p>drumroll, please…</p>
<p>MIC=
Minimum inhibitory concentration, in microbiology, the lowest concentration of an antimicrobial that will inhibit growth of a microorganism</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>I’m a mom of a musician and a wife of a musician but a microbiologist in my real life.</p>
<p>Perhaps true, but the ability to memorize a lot of information – for bio – and/or synthesize it – for organic – requires an (much) above average IQ. Someone with a ~100 is just not gonna get A’s in the premed courses, regardless on how hard/long they study. </p>
<p>Thus, it really all depends on what you consider scary smart.</p>
<p>I guess you’re right-- I just always considered my ability to read, absorb, memorize and then spew material out a skill, not a sign of extreme intelligence. The stuff later-- being able to take the basic science knowledge and forge a diagnostic hypothesis–takes more smarts, imo. As far as the memorizing/spewing of information, I always considered my grad school friends (who were actually thinking about actual questions and then trying to figure out how to answer them) smarter than me. But I can see it’s all in how one considers these things.</p>
Premed courses are not ridiculously difficult, advanced courses. Instead they are mostly basic foundation courses… the types of courses that are required as prerequisites for advanced classes, rather than the types of classes taken for majors. This relates to why you can’t major in premed. Specifically the AAMC requires 2 years chem, 1 year bio, and 1 year physics (some med schools have additional requirements). </p>
<p>I’m not sure why you’d need a high IQ to memorize a lot of information, as IQ doesn’t test longterm memory. In any case, several studies show GPA has a better correlation with self-discipline and/or work ethic than IQ.</p>
<p>I have experience with med students and can’t find the words to describe how what I see often doesn’t match this image of some sort of super smart genetic predisposition. I could tell some tales. Pre-med skills them in the scientific basics. The best have that platform down solid. They knocked themselves out to excel in pre-med and get into a competitive med school. But, that’s just one aspect or one prep/achievement, one first step.</p>
<p>Indeed they are. And the average student in those foundation courses earns a C/C+; hardly even close to being competitive for grad school, much less professional school.</p>
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<p>Only need short-term memory to ace tomorrow’s test. You can forget it all by Monday. :)</p>
<p>But in reality, the necessary brain power is required to earn A’s to be competitive for professional school. Those foundation courses are timed, and only the strong survive for an A. </p>
<p>Organic chem requires (spatial-temporal) reasoning skills which are not taught in HS, particularly since Geom no longer requires proofs (at least in our districts).</p>
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<p>One can’t major in premed because it rarely exists…I know of only one “top” school that has something close to premed/pre-health as a major.</p>
The average overall GPA at private universities is about a 3.4 . Some are higher. For example, in 2007 Brown had an average GPA of 3.61. Continuing with the current rate of grade inflation, the average GPA at Brown would be closer to 3.7 today . Looking specifically at the pre-med classes using the reported grades at CourseRank, the average GPA is far more than C/C+ in nearly every single pre-med class I checked. I’ll use Stanford as an example since I have taken most of the listed courses below and am quite familiar with them:</p>
<p>Course Sequence – Average Grade
Chem 31a/31b or 31x – B, B+ or B+
Chem 135 or 171 and 181 or 183 – B+ or A- and B+ or B+
Bio 41/42/43 — B, B, B+</p>
<p>I could go on, but the point the average grade is clearly in the B+ range. This does not include students who repeated the class to improve a lower grade. I knew one pre-med student who would repeat a pre-med foundation class whenever she had an A-. She went to Harvard for med school. Less selective medical schools have lower average GPAs. Some have average science GPAs in the B+ range discussed above.</p>
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One could achieve A’s in the vast majority of the pre-med classes I took with simple hard work rather than innate intelligence. This is especially true for the classes that focused more on memorizing arbitrary information. However, I did have one chem class that had a different approach. The professor made the test questions far more difficult than the textbook and included far more questions than most people could complete in the exam time. You had to intuitively know the answers, rather than take time to work through them (or at least that was my strategy). Most of the pre-med students in the class had major difficulty with this type of intuition. The average grades on some exams were under 35%, while persons who intuitively knew answers (like myself) scored 80+%. The majority scoring 35% and below didn’t fail the class and drop out of pre-med. Instead it was curved to a B, so they had a B on their record, unless they chose to re-take with a different professor.</p>
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One cannot major in anything by almost entirely taking foundation classes. Instead you need to take advanced classes beyond foundation prerequisites. The pre-med classes generally do not include such advanced classes.</p>
<p>Data, lots of CC kids say premed was a breeze for them. As often as not, I think it’s just a form of gamesmanship. </p>
<p>And I don’t think the issue is what or whether they memorized for grades or got a 3.5, 3.7 or 4.0- or have some superior intuitive abilities in the test taking setting. These things don’t measure or predict interactive skills or the ability to probe for relevant details, weigh and assess. And hit the mark.</p>
<p>It takes a different savvy to excel in med school. A good chunk today is performance based. Not only in the clinical setting. And, no matter how they came out of college, med school is a new leveling point.</p>
<p>yes, I know that Brown is that unique college which curves STEM courses on a A-. And yes, Stanford (and Yale) are known for relatively higher curves, but so what (unless you are trying to reinforce my point)?</p>
<p>The vast majority of college students – which therefore makes the average student – do not attend a private college do they? :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>Meaningless, since the course is curved. The mean grade could be a 95, and the curve is just a lot more compacted.</p>
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<p>Your statement is the height of arrogance. Are you really saying that all of the other hundreds of Frosh premeds don’t work hard? Seriously? Would you be willing to write that in a letter and submit it under your signature to the editor of the Stanford Daily?</p>
<p>While typical pre-med courses are not advanced courses, they (and other introductory level courses) are not necessarily easy courses. Also, having labs means that most are relatively high workload, even for a student does not find them intellectually difficult.</p>
<p>Of course, being a pre-med may be stressful, in always having to operate under the assumption that the minimum acceptable grade is an A-.</p>
Your original post said the average GPA in pre-med courses was a C. This was not true in any schools that I checked at CourseRank – public or private. If your comment about a C average was only true for certain public schools that have low curves, you should have phrased it as such. Choosing the college I attended as an example should be sufficient to refute it. That said, the average overall GPA at public schools is less than 0.3 below private schools according to GradeInflation.com. This suggests that overall GPA among all US universities is only 0.1 to 0.2 below the private school GPA, not enough to drastically change grades.
My point was a large portion of the pre-med students struggled in the unique class where one couldn’t achieve better grades by simply working harder. This was evident by large difference between the mean grade of under 35% vs 80+%. Such a difference would not have been evident between a mean of 95% and top grades of 98%+.
One does not need to be a super genius to get an A in a class that is primarily based on memorization of arbitrary facts. This does not mean it’s easy to get an A or that students don’t work hard. Some have to work extremely hard to memorize and recall information, but it does not require what you called “much above average IQ.” Instead it’s the type of class where you see clear results from studying… as you spend more time studying, grades go up. Sure some will have to study more than others to get quality grades… in some cases 2 or 3x more hours. However, if you put in enough hours, the vast majority can achieve quality grades, and in many of the classes I listed, an A was the most frequently given out grade. I think most pre-med students I knew believed this. I can’t recall a single student making a comment to the effect of it’s not possible for them to get quality grades because they aren’t intelligent enough. However, some did say that they wished they were the type of student who could achieve top grades easily, without hard work .</p>
I agree. My college split up the labs as separate courses, which helped avoid scheduling too high a workload. For example bio and bio lab were separate 5-credit classes. A typical quarter schedule was ~15 credits, so during the quarters where pre-med students took bio + lab, many would take only one additional course.</p>
<p>And, hate to say it, but your anecdotal experience and the tangential look-back at some web stats doesn’t always relate to reality or the real nut being explored. Weeding exists. Not all premed classes at all schools, private or public, U or LAC, can be mastered via “memorization of arbitrary facts.” Grades do not go up based on simply hours of studying. What happens, in many cases, is the determined kids withstand the repeated blows, continue trying to pass through the ring of fire. Even suggesting it’s as simple as 2-3x more hours underplays it. If there is curving, that grade result doesn’t adequately convey the blows.</p>
<p>And, when you insist, it leaves a question about how demanding Stanford is.</p>
<p>Personally…I want a doctor, vet, dentist…to be able to APPLY what they have learned…not just memorize it. As a former teacher, I worked with a number of students who were great at memorizing and parroting back info…but application was a challenge for them. They could not read between or beyond the lines…which I think are most important.</p>
<p>And of course, GPA’s don’t count the classes where students withdraw because they realize they’re not going to pass, or get an acceptable grade. One reason for grade inflation is generous withdrawal timetables. </p>
<p>And science classes are not just taught as memorization classes. I worked for many years as an academic counselor/advisor at a “real world” college. The students were truly average in attainment at that point, but aspirational. Semester after semester, good, hardworking students would cry in my office about failing bio, or other pre-med or nursing classes, and say they’d studied and studied the textbook. But the professors were giving tests which used the information in critical thinking ways, not just asking them to regurgitate it. Some students excelled at this, but many did not.</p>
<p>So even classes that were not organic chem tested critical thinking skills.</p>
<p>I think this is one reason that AP Bio was changed this year–the realization that college classes are not just spitting back memorized info.</p>
<p>Edit–crossposted with Thumper. Yes, exactly.</p>