<p>I’m starting to think that students might sometimes get a better education in the slower moving “regular” classes than they get in AP classes.</p>
<p>In 8th grade, my son had a FABULOUS US history teacher. Every day was a richly detailed, humerous monologue, full of fascinating stories of US History. Fast forward to Junior Year, AP US History. They are RACING through the materials, because the teacher “has never had a class that didn’t get though the entire textbook.” (They had to outline the first 5 chapters over the summer.) When my son remembers the events of history, he recalls what he was told in 8th grade (he’ll NEVER forget those stores), not what he is being taught now.</p>
<p>Similar for AP English. I guess there’s no more luxury of reading a novel and discussing it. I believe that last night’s homework was straight out of an AP exam. </p>
<p>This is making me question the “AP track” that so many kids seem to be on these days.</p>
<p>There are good AP teachers and less good AP teachers. I think everyone’s mileage will vary on this question. At DDs HS the “regular” classes end up spending a lot of time on classroom management (also known as making the kids sit still, listen, get off their cel phones, and learn something). </p>
<p>Thus she takes as many APs and honors as she can handle to get away from that situtation.</p>
<p>And that would be the case at my son’s school as well. He’s always taken regular math and I can’t believe the stories he tells about what goes on there. But if the teachers in the AP classes are totally focussing on the kids getting a high score on the AP exams, I think the kids miss a lot.</p>
<p>Three of my son’s 4 AP classes were 3 of the best he’s ever had. The 4th wasn’t so good, though he did get a 5 on the exam, so I’m wondering if the subject matter (Calc) was just less interesting to him. Some of his regular classes were great too. It all depends on the teacher.</p>
<p>I think it totally depends. At my school, we don’t have a lot of AP’s, so I’ve taken a whole mix of terrible “regular” classes to absolutely amazing ones. That said, AP Gov was probably one of the best classes I’ve ever taken – wonderful, engaging teacher; interesting discussions; and I remember a heck of a lot.</p>
<p>missypie: I have the same questions. AP classes are definintely “teaching to the test” in our school, especially since kids are required to take the exam. I don’t think that is ever a good idea. But what can we do? We have to grin and bear it, because the kids apparently must take the “most rigorous course offerings” in order to be considered at competitive colleges. I’m not very happy about it, frankly.</p>
<p>I also admit that the prostitutes in the Texas legislature have made the situation even worse. School here has always typically started the second week of August; the legislature (bowing to the tourism lobby) recently mandated a last week of August start date. But the dates of the AP exams certainly didn’t move back. So the teachers now have 2 weeks less to teach the course than they previously did. They are probably a bit panicked about this. (Of course, I guess the teachers in the post-Labor Day schools have always done this.) </p>
<p>Maybe they’ll get some enrichment in those weeks after the AP exam and before school is out.</p>
<p>Yes they have. It’s always up to the student, in the end, to make sure the class is educational and that test-prep-as-such doesn’t crowd out the opportunity to learn in depth. I was very pleased with the AP-designated courses my son took last year, as they were taught in the college manner by genuine college teachers. He also took some self-study AP tests that were peripherally related to another course he took last year. Some teachers teaching AP classes do too much by way of quizzing on past AP questions and too little by way of developing a conceptual understanding of core concepts of the course, but that kind of teaching error can happen with or without an AP brand name label on the course. In most high schools I know, I wouldn’t urge my children to do less than the most challenging course available at their age. But in ANY high school, I would urge any learner I cared about to supplement school lessons with self-study and independent reading, to be sure to get a broad and deep view of the subject.</p>
<p>By the standards of my home state (and by most states, but even more in a state that doesn’t have a strong AP culture), I took a LOT of AP classes. This was because in most cases, the AP classes were better classes with better teachers. I have fond memories of AP Government & Politics, AP Psych, and AP US History in particular. And in some cases, like AP French Literature, there was no non-AP version of the class.</p>
<p>But this wasn’t always the case. I didn’t take AP Bio, despite my interest in bio, because I didn’t like the way it seemed to be taught. I took my magnet program’s standard 10th grade bio class. It was one of the best classes I took in high school. I remember doing a lab involving using recombinant DNA to grow E Coli cultures that glowed in the dark. As 15 year-olds, we were enthralled by this. :)</p>
<p>Part of the problem with AP classes is that they tend to teach for the AP test which could give the teacher less latitude about the subject matter. As a senior, my son elected to take “Advanced World Lit” rather than the AP lit class( I forget the name) because the reading material sounded much more to his liking. That being said, he has enjoyed his AP classes but as a parent I get the impression that they do teach to the test, esp in AP Bio And AP World History.</p>
<p>Both of those teachers for Bio and World are readers or graders for the AP, so I guess they would know exactly what they look for. And obviously, they want their students to do well.</p>
<p>The potential problem that students could get less out of AP than a really good ‘home grown’ course is the reason why some elite private schools have stopped offering AP courses. This hasn’t stopped their students from getting into the elite ivy colleges. </p>
<p>But we are talking about high acheiving students at name-brand schools.</p>
<p>That’s exactly what my son’s experience was with APUSH. However, his other AP’s were not as “scratch the surface”. The entire structure of APUSH was, 1. students read and outline the chapter, 2. teacher lectures covering the material (2-3 class periods), 3. take multiple choice test over chapter, 4. do a DBQ (or whatever it’s called- I can’t remember). Repeat process week after week. Book was finished two weeks before the AP test- last two weeks was review lectures. The last three weeks of school (after the AP test) was spent doing enrichment activities- group work, oral presentations, etc.</p>
<p>Maybe it’s just the nature of the beast with APUSH.</p>
<p>There’s no reason a class can’t be fun and fascinating and still yield scores of 4 and 5. Preparing kids for the test doesn’t have to be boring–it’s all in the skill of the teacher.</p>
<p>My son had this comment written in his yearbook, “Ms. X was horrible you should have taught this course.” This was AP Lit, and it was horrible. APUSH was taught by someone who is an old dragon who should have retired a long time agol.</p>
<p>Even having said that, I am still glad DS took those course for several reasons. First, the texts are better. (This was especially true in AP Lit. If they read those texts who cares what the teacher says?) Second, the students are better. A lot of learning comes from each other. Third, the papers were more demanding, and I think this is what prepares kids for college the most.</p>
<p>Unless we change what “education” means in our country, the anecdote will never be as valuable in the general culture as the broad survey. I’m not saying this how it should be, I am just observing that this is the prevailing thinking. It’s not only the fault of the AP format.</p>
<p>Vicariousparent - You’re right in my experience. Although s’s private HS will never stop offering AP, the other “in-depth” courses were much more stimulating. IE, he took “Brit Lit” in jr. year and sat for Eng Lang AP in May - got a 5.</p>
<p>My son’s HS offers two tracks for advanced English and Social Studies. You can take them seperately (as AP), or in a G/T block, also AP. Last year my son took the G/T World History block, even though we knew that the kids in the “regular” AP world history class always did better on the AP exam. </p>
<p>It turned out to be true (DS got a 3) BUT he had a terrific experience. The G/T teacher required each of them to write a major paper (over 50 pages, plus footnotes) on a philosopher. It nearly killed those 10th graders, but they were all SO proud to have such a major paper under their belts! I think that all of the parents and students in the class would agree that writing the paper was much more beneficial than a 4 or 5 on the AP exam.</p>
<p>My son had a wonderful teacher for APUSH. One lesson that really struck me is that he asked the kids to read non-American websites about Pearl Harbor before reading what the textbook had to say. It was quite an eye-opener. They wrote several research papers as well. My son wrote one about the effect of new transportations systems opening up the west, which used some primary materials. His AP Bio teacher was also amazing - he had handouts of articles that were almost two feet high by the end of the course. (That teacher did bemoan the fact that he had to cover everything unlike a real college professor, since he didn’t know what was going to be emphasized on any year’s exam.)</p>
<p>I think it’s inevitable that there’s more test prep than in a regular course, but I thought my kid’s teachers really made the effort to make the courses worthwhile despite the test. </p>
<p>BTW we are one of those after Labor Day start schools - all the AP courses usually require reading several books and writing at least one essay over the summer. It means the courses start up and running right away.</p>
<p>Our AP classes were “easier” than the “regular” ones in terms of workload. Our teachers also didn’t have to worry about teaching to one of the state-mandated end-of-course tests, so they tended to be pretty slack (even in the rare AP course with an EOC, the kids in the AP class tended not to really need to prepare for the EOC, since it’s not exactly on the difficulty level of the AP test). </p>
<p>Another issue at my school- everything (and I mean everything) stopped after the AP exam. Post-exam attendance was “mandatory” (wink wink-after all, we had important movies to watch) and there were no assignments or tests. This was just a waste of a month that would have probably had some instructional time if the AP exam hadn’t come through and abruptly ended the class (not that I was terribly upset at the time).</p>
<p>For my kids – two different high schools, two different grades – it’s been a matter of the teachers. Both took AP Bio, one kid had a fabulous instructor, every day interesting, he scored well on the exam. D had a middle school teacher moving up to H.S. who had never taught the subject before, and on top of that D’s H.S. encourages the AP Bio class in 9th grade. As I have a Master’s in Biology education, no problem for us … I tutored her and her best friend at home. D got a 5. The teacher was waaaay over her head. Yet, D ADORED her AP World History teacher … said he made the subject come alive – and this is to a kid who’s not always fascinated with history. She scored a 5 on the exam. Her AP Lang teacher this year – fabulous! But she’s had years and years of teaching. My S’s AP Lit teacher and AP phyics teachers – unparalleled. But his AP gov teacher … a total waste of time. S pulled a 3 on the exam he said … essentially without having the class. My kids’ problems with the general honors/ standard courses are that they are boatloads of projects and busy work … which absolutely drives them crazy. They’d rather be in AP classses with all the faults and inflated grades than in the honors classes. Of course, there are exceptions … but in general. </p>
<p>It’s funny, because the whole idea of AP’s is to standardize the curriculum. But my daughter had friends all over the country in both public and private schools and the exact course was different for all of them. On the whole, at her private competitive high school, she had way more work. What I (and she) didn’t like about the AP’s was the pace. Hamlet in 3 weeks in English, the Civil War in a few days in US History, the Rennaissance is a week or so in Art History. For certain schools, I think they make sense. My other daughter is at another private school and they recently did away with the APs because they felt that the teachers could be more creative with the curriculum when they didn’t have to teach to the test. So far in the first two years it hasn’t made any difference in their college acceptances.</p>
<p>My other issue is that my older daughter simply took too many, 4 out of 5 her senior year, because there is so much pressure to do so. But maybe that’s another thread.</p>