<p>I guess it might be possible for kids to learn more in “regular” classes, but not at my kid’s school. The AP classes are small and the teachers treat the kids like adults and they all have pretty meaningful discussions. I heard complaints from both students and parents that the students in the regular classes are treated “differently” because they aren’t as “smart” as the AP kids.</p>
<p>My kids’ experiences were basically the same as most have posted. The AP classes covered much more material and were taught at a faster pace by passionate teachers. The “regular” class teachers spent a great deal of time keeping kids in line and focused; the workload was much lighter and easier. </p>
<p>I would say the same thing occurs in college. My son had 6 APs last yr yet finds college work “demanding” while some of his HS classmates say their college work is easier than HS. In my experience (I’ve taken classes at 4 colleges), I found college level work quite variable, especially among different schools. I don’t agree with those who say an Intro to ____ class is the same regardless of where you take it.</p>
<p>At son’s HS, AP Curriculum has not been followed until this year. That means that son’s HS teachers did not follow the prescribed AP course of study. Yet, all students could take the AP tests. Son did this with some brush-up work on his own, just to be familiar with what the test covered. Yes, son attended a private school. However, he did just fine on the AP tests and was even allowed the op to do an ind. study to prepare for an AP exam that he wanted to take, but the school did not offer any type of course for the subject. I was somewhat saddened to see that the school succumbed to the AP Hysteria and has now adopted the curricula to follow. The teaching was great as it was–the AP tests should have been just that-optional!</p>
<p>I agree with you jerzgrlmom, I’ve taken classes at 5 schools, post high school, and they were all quite different.</p>
<p>It comepletely depends on the school, the course, and the teacher. </p>
<p>My AP Lang teacher is widely known as the best teacher in our district. I don’t think we even talk about the AP until like April/May. But she is known for being extremely strict and demanding and making you an amazing writer.<br>
The class is based on in-depth discussion and analysis of books that we read and a LOT of writing.<br>
If your English class doesn’t analyze the books and so forth, what exactly do they do?</p>
<p>One other quick point, some of this is driven by a school’s internal politics. In some subjects at my children’s school, the AP classes are taught by the most senior teachers, not necessarily the “best” teachers. The teachers with seniority get to pick which classes they want to teach.</p>
<p>This annoys me totally. Teaching an AP class as a party favor is not good for anyone.</p>
<p>On one hand, I sympathize with the AP teachers because they have to prepare their students for a national exam that they never get to see. AP teachers also are exposed to 'backlash" if not enough students “do well” on the national exam. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I don’t like some of the manipulations that sometimes goes on. One AP teacher at my sons’ school tries to exclude some very good students from taking her class for non-specific reasons. </p>
<p>This teacher tried to exclude my older son from taking her AP Gov class because she only wanted “certain students” in the class (those who agreed with her politics. My son, altho he is conservative, isn’t the type to “debate” his teacher in class.) When she first resisted allowing my older son in her class, she tried to say that the class might be too hard for him. My son is a NMF, he was class Valedictorian, he had all A’s all 4 years, 7 AP classes all with 5’s & 4’s. On graduation night, the principal told us that our son had graduated with the highest GPA the school had ever had (the school is only 10 years old and my son was the first (and only) to take 7 AP classes (which is all his school offers). The principal also told us also that our son had the highest total of merit award offers ever (over $400K from various colleges). The school keeps track of such stuff so they can use the info in their brochures.</p>
<p>The fact that this teacher had tried to exclude our son from her class was truly laughable because I’m sure his scholastic record in high school far outstripped what hers had been. Of course, in the end, she relented and signed but that was only because she knew that her lame excuses would not hold up if challenged by his parents.</p>
<p>This same teacher put my younger son’s best friend thru a similar hassle. That child has an A average, but she still tried to resist allowing him in her class. This teacher didn’t try to exclude our younger son from her class this year because after she hassled our older son, we met with both the principal and the academic dean and complained heavily. (They couldn’t believe this teacher did this to our older son - the principal names our son specifically when he’s trying to drum up for donations, etc (it’s a private school).</p>
<p>I think that if a child has at A average - especially in the subject area, he should be allowed in an AP class automatically without having to go thru this bs.</p>
<p>It has been my experience that the AP classes have been pretty good and taught by competent teachers. Most are more senior teachers, but not always. I know that our school district sends AP teachers for some training, so teachers need to volunteer to do that. The difference has been the depth and breadth of the material taught.</p>
<p>I recently had a similar dilamma with an honors vs regular class. D had been assigned to an accelerated honors level class with a teacher that I know from past experience is “not so good” for several reasons. The regular level of the same class had a fantastic teacher. After much discussion, we decided that it was better to learn the material than to cling to the “honors” designation, at least for this year. Really, the quality of the teacher can make it or break it. I am just happy that we had first hand knowledge of the teacher options (at the expense of our older son, unfortunately).</p>
<p>One other factor that needs to be considered is the quality of the students in a class, not just the quality of the teacher.</p>
<p>An AP class – even if taught by a less-than-stellar teacher and geared entirely to passing the test, is likely to have a more academically focused group of students than a “regular” class will.</p>
<p>Sometimes the difference is substantial; in other cases, it doesn’t matter much. </p>
<p>My son, who disliked science, took “regular” classes in both chemistry and physics in high school. The chemistry class was run like a military establishment, with strict rules and a very adversarial relationship between student and teacher. It had to be run that way because many of the kids in the class were not academic at all, and there were substantial discipline problems. This is a course that was required for graduation, and the teacher had to get those kids to pass, even if it meant draconian penalties for late homework, etc. The physics class, which was not a required course (and was generally not taken by those who did not intend to go to college) was just fine.</p>
<p>I’ve heard this from my kids and many others: If an AP class is offered, it will suck enough good students out of the “regular” or “honors” sections to ensure that the non-AP course is a second-rate experience, regardless of teacher quality or whether an AP course fits within a particular student’s plans.</p>
<p>We encouraged my daughter, who does not like math much, to take honors calculus instead of AP calculus in 11th grade. The class was nearly worthless, and taking it was a waste of her time. Last night, I was talking to an 11th grader whose parents had insisted she register for honors physics in 10th grade rather than AP Physics AB. She lasted a week in the course, then changed her registration without telling her parents. It’s not that she is such a science kid, because she isn’t, but she didn’t know how she was going to learn anything with a class full of unmotivated students.</p>
<p>On the other hand, many of my children’s favorite classes were non-AP classes. But they didn’t have any direct AP competition.</p>
<p>I agree with Marian and JHS. Given the unfortunate choice between Class A with a great teacher but unmotivated students and Class B with a bad teacher but top students, I would almost always recommend Class B. </p>
<p>Incidentally this is also the reason to go for the best colleges. The teaching at HYP etc is actually pretty ordinary. At these institutions the professors don’t aspire to become the best teachers. They advance their own careers primarily through scholarship and not through teaching. But it is the students that make these places worth attending.</p>
<p>
My school system requires a parent’s/guardian’s signature on schedule changes.</p>
<p>“I’ve heard this from my kids and many others: If an AP class is offered, it will suck enough good students out of the “regular” or “honors” sections to ensure that the non-AP course is a second-rate experience, regardless of teacher quality or whether an AP course fits within a particular student’s plans.”</p>
<p>This is exactly what happened to our oldest when he opted out of AP English Comp his senior year, thinking that by taking three other APs he was challenging himself enough. What a waste of time that year was. The “honors” English was like Kotter’s class- there were less than 10 kids in the class, they were all guys, and they all played football. My son said that literally these guys would sit around passing gas during class for fun. It was the biggest mistake we ever made, education-wise.</p>
<p>
Incredible…little dictator of a teacher, yes? She obviously wasn’t a good teacher, as she didn’t want any viewpoints that were contrary to her own. I bet her own high school was very different from your son’s! (And wouldn’t you like to see her SAT scores? I’ve read that education majors’ SAT scores are often on the low end.)</p>
<p>My son’s HS Physics 2 class deliberately wasn’t AP – the teacher, who also taught AP Bio, didn’t like the AP Physics curriculum. He devised his own, which tied into working on a particle detection experiment that the local university was running. The HS was one of three in the area with detectors on the roof, and the year culminated with a trip to the U to present their results. Pretty cool! Anyway, the point is that the teacher brought a lot of things into the curriculum that teaching to the AP test wouldn’t have allowed him to do.</p>
<p>My daughter’s experience this year relates to “regular” history. The only session of AP history didn’t fit into her schedule, so after weighing all alternatives she decided to go with the best of the regular teachers. Kudos to the counselor, who was willing to acknowledge that some teachers are better than others! First few days of school, she didn’t like the teacher – “She doesn’t like me – I don’t think she likes anybody!”. But apparently the teacher likes to scare away marginal students – “This is not an easy A class. If you want to transfer out, I’ll help you”. Now that she’s got a group of motivated students she’s lightening up her style.</p>
<p>I agree with others that the quality of the students in classes can be quite variable, and the AP classes usually attract the same group of above average students. This is even the case with the class in which I moved my D from honors to regular; however, sometimes the teaching deficit is so enormous that you just have to do it. I expect that she will learn more in the regular math class with the excellent teacher and thus be able to continue more successfully in the honors accelerated class next year.</p>
<p>PS - It is unbelievable to me that some teachers can continue year after year in the face of numerous complaints and unsatisfactory student progress. In most other jobs, you would be fired!</p>
<p>Those of you who have seen undemanding ‘regular’ classes, does your school offer lower level classes? Ours had honors and AP (extra weighting), then regular (neutral), then so-called ‘prep’ classes (depressed weighting). While the regular classes aren’t very demanding, I haven’t seen the discipline problems some mention.</p>
<p>In our sch. regular is the lowest level. Above that is honors and AP. At our school, the most basic of the “regular classes” like Eng. 1 or Algebra 1 have lots of discipline problems. As the level of the course increases, most of the students causing the discipline problems are opting for other courses so the class is OK. </p>
<p>My S2 is not a strong math student so opted for regular Chem. versus honors chem (both taught by same teacher). There were no discp. issues in this class because at our sch., only college bound students take chem. at all. S ended up doing much better in reg. Chem than some of his friends in honors mainly because he said the teacher gave the regular kids a lot more explanation and reviewed homework, etc. in class more than he did with the honors classes who were expected to get it on their own.</p>
<p>S1 hated AP Eng. comp. (as did most of his classmates) due to the teacher. Pass rate was dismal. S got a 3, one of the few in his class. After such a bad experience S (and most others) opted for honors senior Eng. which is taught by the most beloved teacher in our sch. He had a great year in that class and never regreeted not taking AP lit.</p>
<p>The high schools I know of here only offer a prep math class for freshmen, to get kids needing extra help ready for Integrated Math 1, which is normally where freshmen start, unless they are bumped up to Integrated Math 2.</p>