<p>“Bad teachers, who do get a lot of complaints, react defensively.”</p>
<p>-We never complained, no use, complete waste of time. Parents cannot educate teacher, we have no control over anything at school, we just pay money and will continue paying more and more and it will not make any difference. We just sat down with kid at home and made sure she got material, understood all concepts, we did it when she asked, we never interfered! Parents do not need to be educated, they need to have desire to help. Textbooks are there, in kid’s backpack. Just pull it and read, it is not a rocket science, any adult who can read can understand HS material. As a result D. has graduated at the top of her HS class. Following our example, she has always been very helpful to others in all of her classes, which has landed her a prof’s assistant job at college. </p>
<p>Fact - school will NOT teach your kid in area of math and science, period. Even the best schools with best teachers and 10 - 15 kids in each class will not do it. They still have to follow curriculum, which is not appropriate, with completely wrong approach in math and science in particular. BTW, I am not an educator, neither is my H. However, my nephew is teaching 2nd year math at U of Chicago. He is very dissapointed in the level of math of his students (apparently the brightest in a country). He needs to bring it up, give them background before he can move forward with his own class material. Very sad!!</p>
<p>EPTR, I understand that you’re coming from a place of compassion for teachers and the stress they’re under. Managing a classroom is really hard, especially when students are unruly. But I don’t think you’re seeing the potential for abuse and long-lasting effects on students when teachers act out in the classroom themselves. </p>
<p>If a teacher loses her temper, I don’t think that we as parents should think it’s a good thing if our kids’ first thought is, “what did I do to deserve this?” That just seems psychologically unhealthy. If that kind of response becomes a pattern, it could lead to problems later on if they encounter an abusive boss or spouse. The kids are responsible for their own behavior, but other people’s misbehavior is not the fault of the kids. </p>
<p>The teacher-student relationship is inherently unequal; the balance of institutional power and authority are all on one side. I do think it’s damaging for kids to be subjected to sarcasm, yelling, and other bad behaviors from adults who have power over them. I had a couple of systematically abusive teachers in elementary school, and I could see even as a child that there were no protections built into the system.</p>
<p>The need for self-control in trying circumstances is yet another factor that makes teaching hard, but I think it comes with the job. Kids (even annoying teenagers) are vulnerable, and I don’t think there’s an acceptable minimum level of acting out on the part of teachers. It may happen in trying situations, but I believe it will happen less if we can agree that it doesn’t meet professional standards.</p>
<p>It’s just the system they are in. Security and advancement come via the union and not through the taxpayers even though the taxpayers are footing the bill. Simple as that.</p>
<p>We need to change the system that our teachers work within. Everyone realizes that at this point. The only ones arguing differently are benefiting from the status quo.</p>
<p>Calreader,
I agree with most of what you said. I was not talking about a teacher who has a pattern of acting out and losing self control in the classroom. I was reacting to (and I guess, based on subsequent posts, I did not have enough info to make a judgement) what I perceived as a teacher faced with an unruly classroom who gets overwhelmed and says something that would be considered less than professional. Of course, I understand the importance of self control and completely agree that a pattern of yelling, diminishing or humiliating students is damaging to those students. No teacher should be allowed to stay in his or her job if they display such behavior. I don’t think, however, that it is harmful to a student to witness a teacher getting overwhelmed in the moment and getting frustrated or angry and I don’t think it does any child any harm, whether they were the cause of the problem or not, to reflect on why the teacher became testy. Not if it’s occasional. Children aren’t that fragile.<br>
You are right, though. I do, of course, sympathize with the issues that teachers face. I live it every day and it is difficult. It is also very rewarding and filled with moments of overwhelming joy and satisfaction. I do think that parents should be able to give feedback. I am also surprised that so many of you who seem to feel the same, avoid giving feedback when it is warranted.
I have an idea. Let’s try coming up with questions that we feel (as teachers and parents) would be appropriate and informative if they were on a questionnaire for parents of students at a high school. Let’s assume that the questionnaire is given to parents at the end of the school year to help administration evaluate teachers. The survey will be anonymous. Maybe we can come up with questions that could, realistically, be used on such a survey. As we suggest them, be prepared for critique of the question. No defensiveness. Okay?</p>
Thanks for responding, Shellz! I wonder with your first question, though, if it would be better to have a separate survey for the students. Otherwise, the parents might be speculating on their child’s perception.</p>
<p>The second one is perfect, in my opinion because that (especially if grades are posted) is something parents would have first hand experience.</p>
<p>I think it’s helpful to get input from parents about students’ experiences as well as their own direct experiences. I’ve noticed that students are often reluctant to tell it like it is in surveys. They empathize with unskilled teachers who are trying their best but still not succeeding, and they don’t want to hurt their feelings. Also, lots of kids focus on what has been happening this week or this month, and parents can remember further back than that. So the differences in their responses become interesting, especially if you ask both parents and students to back up their quantitative feedback with explanations and examples.</p>
<p>Then the wording should be “What would you say has been your child’s experience…”</p>
<p>I think you can have the same problem with parents who hesitate to criticize a teacher. Many teens would be more than happy to fill out an anonymous survey honestly. It could go both ways. Unfortunately, with a survey, you are always going to have a level of subjectivity and you have to allow for that when evaluating the results. I think the best assessments, while not ideal, will come from the primary source. Students could fill out a questionnaire, as well. The parent and matching student could even be put together so that the person compiling the results could compare and look for trends in how the parent/child answers compare to and support each other.</p>
<p>Had an interesting conversation with some moms from D’s high school yesterday. Two were teachers who said they found that they couldn’t do the high-quality job at teaching that they wanted to do while their own kids were in K-12. One actually stopped teaching until her own kids were in college. They said it was really hard to be a mom to school-age kids at the same time as giving all that energy to kids in the classroom all day.</p>
<p>Had never thought about this but it kind of made sense to me. Thinking back to the bad apple teachers our kids had over the years, they were often parents with really busy kids themselves. I remember one whose twin daughters were in marching band and that was the excuse throughout the year for ungraded work, unrecorded grades, constant group projects, etc. She would literally do marching band volunteer work from the classroom - coordinate uniforms and food for trips, etc. This was a 5th grade teacher. It was just bizarre. My daughter became equally obsessed with the high school marching band that year! The whole class was deeply concerned over whether Mrs. X’s daughters would go to Nationals . . . </p>
<p>Did I complain about this teacher. No. How could I? She was hugely involved in her own kids (as I was) and the family needed her paycheck. And I liked her. But my daughter’s fifth grade educational experience was terrible.</p>
<p>The reasons for a teacher doing a bad job can be so complex and so variable. I think the survey is a good idea. I also think the system of job security and incentives needs to change from union-based to regular civil servant like my dad – an engineer for the state government – was. He was paid reasonably well, had good but not extreme benefits and would have been fired if he was doing a really bad job. He knew it and he didn’t resent it. In fact, it made him take more pride in his work, I think.</p>
<p>My kids have had mostly good teachers (I think :)) and there have been several really, really great ones. After my last kid was out of middle school, I sent a letter to two of these teachers telling them why I thought so highly of them and how grateful I was for what they gave to my children. (I didn’t want anyone to think I was trying to get brownie points, so I waited til both were on to high school). I plan to do the same for two particular high school teachers after my son graduates this year. A good teacher is a treasure.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a bad teacher is poison. I’ve only encountered one of this kind and I did intervene in the situation. The thing is, she was not a “bad teacher”, but rather a personality type that just should not be allowed in a classroom. I don’t know how we get rid of this type, because they can “do the job”, but the destruction they can reap while they have a child in their control is a little scary to contemplate.</p>
<p>And just because I am only a parent doesn’t mean I lack the capacity to recognize a bad classroom situation when I see it. Nor do most of the kids who find themselves in such a situation.</p>
<p>Hmm. Sewhappy. Interesting conversation with those teachers. i don’t know, though. I guess that part of me feels that, as in any job, if you can’t do the job because you have young kids at home, then you shouldn’t try. I mean, an employee in a private sector job is expected to meet deadlines, produce, sell whatever, regardless of the age of their children.</p>
<p>As a teacher myself, I understand how hard it is to balance, but the customer (in this case, the administrator and the student) will only be patient for so long. I had a challenging year this year as I was finishing grad school and was going through the illness and death of my father. Did this impact my job? A bit, but only in my timing as I could not have anticipated my Dad’s hospitalization and death. As far as the performance of my job, I don’t think it had too much impact. I worried about it more than anyone else.</p>
<p>Still, I think that when you work, you need to separate your personal life from your professional life as much as possible. Teachers are no different than any other employee in that regard. And I think there should be a limit on how much information your class is privy to in regard to your family details, accomplishments, etc. Boundaries are good, No?</p>
<p>A teacher who is using her child’s busy schedule as an excuse for not doing her job is not a professional and should be treated as such, IMO.</p>
<p>I try very hard, in my teaching experience, to allow the things in my life that are throwing me over the edge to only impact the things that I am doing that are above and beyond the call of duty. I do not let them compromise the aspects of my job that are non-negotiable.</p>
<p>I am, after all, paid to do a job and do it well. It needs to be a priority.</p>
<p>A teacher who is using her child’s busy schedule as an excuse for not doing her job is not a professional and should be treated as such, IMO.</p>
<p>I agree & if the principal does not take charge of the situation then whomever is in charge of him /her must step up.</p>
<p>Teachers should not be allowed to take more sick leave days than they were in the classroom for several years running.
This was not even a case of the teacher being ill, but of a relative.
Because the teacher did not take a leave, her 5th grade class room was taught by rotating substitutes for that time.
The parents tried to fill in, but there wasnt much structure to go on. ( we led bookgroups every week for example) I am still angry about the way it was handled</p>
<p>Regarding sewhappy’s post #310: I would agree that busy parents can make poor teachers. I also agree that as parents ourselves, it would feel like a betrayal to complain about an overworked mom who’s our child’s teacher because we can identify with her predicament. Still, I stayed home with my kids because I wanted to do the best job I could parenting them and didn’t think I could be a quality business professional at the same time. I realize not everyone can and wants to make the same choice, but these really extreme situations like the marching band stuff just can’t happen. And the worst is, what that teacher was doing was neither urgent, nor necessary. I would not place that in the excusable category like I would if, say, her father were in the hospital and she had to make calls to doctors during class time. Still, teachers have personal days, lunch, and prep times each day when they can take care of personal business. Otherwise, they have to squeeze it in during after-work hours like everyone else. </p>
<p>Also, in an earlier post I mentioned teachers talking too much about their personal lives. This is a biggie because the topics are sometimes inappropriate, it undermines their professionalism, and it robs classroom time. I am not including in this category the wonderful educator who has traveled around the world and has seen and done interesting things s/he can share with the kids. I’m talking about the teacher who has the kids decide what color she should paint her nails; the teacher who discusses her dates and whose boyfriend regularly visits the classroom; the teacher who works on wedding plans in school and chats with the kids about them; the teacher who texts or chats on the cell phone with her own kids during class time; the teacher just back from maternity leave who wishes she were home with her baby and so calls the babysitter constantly and tells the class baby stories, etc. </p>
<p>I think the school environment is a much more social place to work than most, and this creates a feeling of casualness which can be abused. Also, teachers seem to be a tight-knit group, so it’s unlikely Mrs. X will tell the principal the Mrs. Y shows up ten minutes late for the class after lunch every day, or can’t control her students, and thus problems get swept under the rug.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I understand what happened. Was the teacher out sporadically?</p>
<p>IN this case, my daughters 5th grade teacher was present for about the first month & half of school. Then her elderly mother became ill ( the teacher was about 58 so I am guessing at mom’s age). She also was present for about the last month of the school year- the rest of the school year she was present altogether for a few weeks, only coming to school a few days at a time ( presumably when her mother was doing better)</p>
<p>I was involved with the school ( as PTA chair) for the next several years & this pattern with the teacher continued until the death of her mother several years later.</p>
<p>Really put a burden on the 6th grade teacher of this class as she had to make up for all the things the kids had missed out on or their parents couldn’t teach.</p>
<p>We had two decent rotating subs, who were also parents, but they weren’t given a permanent position as the classroom teacher was using sick leave/vacation.
This was a senior teacher, whose own children had gone through the K-12 school years ago, but IMO the classroom got the short end of the stick.</p>
<p>Yeah, that’s just not okay. When I was pregnant with my first child my school had an outbreak of Fifth’s Disease. if you don’t know anything about it, it is a virus that can be dangerous for pregnant women as it can cause (or was thought at the time to) still birth. My doctor checked my antibodies and I was not immune to it so every time a child was diagnosed, i had to go out of school for two weeks, as that was the incubation period. This was, of course, very stressful because I was worried about the baby but also because a sub would take over for me when I was gone. I would meet with the sub and giver him the lesson plans, etc but I knew my program was suffering from the inconsistency. </p>
<p>After three extended absences, I went to the superintendent and told him that I wanted to take a leave of absence until the end of the school year rather than going in and out for weeks at a time. I had to use accumulated sick time but it was worth it and my superintendent was very understanding and supportive. What surprises me is that an administrator didn’t approach me with this option. They would have let me come and go!</p>
<p>In your case Emeraldkity, an administrator should have taken the initiative. This is a situation that is probably due to union issues. If she had the sick time, the school may not have been able to stop her from taking it in this way. I don’t know. Where I work, we are not supposed to take more than 5 days per school year for family illness. I mean, if you needed to take more, I doubt it would be a problem as long as it wasn’t having an adverse effect on your students. But to have the entire school year turn into a bust…no, not okay.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, any situation that is having a negative effect on the students for an extended period of time, needs to be remedied. I can’t believe this went on for years!</p>
<p>The principal was very young & it was her first building. It also was an " alternative school" and she really wasn’t an alternative administrator, but she wanted in the district ( In my impression).</p>
<p>She was way over her head- and there doesn’t seem to be support for principals especially new ones at the district level. We have " supervisors" but they seem to be more interested with building test scores than with principal training & support.
Hence not a lot of incentive to encourage excellent teachers to get their principal certification.</p>
<p>Right, I agree. People have asked me if I would ever want to be a principal and my response is that I would rather be a geriatric proctologist!</p>
<p>I agree that there isn’t a lot of support for administrators starting out. I was thinking today that there should be a way for teachers to evaluate their administrators once in a while so they could get feedback from those that they supervise. How do administrators ever determine or become aware of the things that they need to work on? Many of them just go on making the same mistakes over and over again.</p>