<p>No world is perfect and the 7 years my kids have been in private school they have had some bad teachers, mostly (like in public) in middle school. What is it with middle school? A very good public school teacher once told me that middle school is the “Great Wasteland” of education. Anyway, there was a really bad history teacher and a really bad English teacher and just as I was developing that bad sinking feeling of having my kid stuck in a terrible classroom for the rest of the year . . . both teachers magically disappeared over Winter Break – replaced, in the case of history, by a very solid teacher, and in the case of English, a truly brilliant teacher (now at Yale working on a doctorate). So my experience in private has been just as dull old me starts to catch on that a teacher is bad . . . they get replaced. Now sometimes it’s about politics. Both my kids had a world history teacher at this private who was very old school and conservative. it was a great education but not what many parents wanted in terms of political slant. He was forced into early retirement. The door swings both ways. Sometimes a gem of a teacher gets booted because of vocal parents in private and it isn’t always fair.</p>
<p>If we could get rid of the bad teachers, I think people would be more than willing to pay teachers more. The way it works now, the bad get paid the same as the good, and sometimes more. Teaching is the most important profession in the world (next to motherhood, of course 
) and I think teachers would like everyone to acknowledge this. But they can’t have it both ways: Demanding respect and higher pay on the one hand, but tolerating and perpetuating (via contract) bad teaching by their colleagues on the other.</p>
<p>Has anyone ever thought a teacher was bad only to find out other parents thought that teacher walked on water? Oh yeah- and the reverse?</p>
<p>^I can go further: I thought my D’s history teacher was pretty bad - she was one of the one’s they described as "She doesn’t teach! She was an AP teacher who graded papers with a number without leaving a single comment; my Ds thought she was lazy and played favorites and she was overweight and ate cupcakes during class. Other parents also expressed disappointment with her. Well, she ended winning a prize for her teaching! When I asked at the PTA meeting how she was selected, the district PTA rep said that the teachers nominate themselves and fill out a form. I thought that was (almost) hilarious and certainly rendered the award meaningless.</p>
<p>^^^
I have what I call “second-hand embarrassment” when I picture that. </p>
<p>I do agree that getting rid of bad teachers is something that needs to be addressed. One hopeful trend that I have noticed is that more principals are taking advantage of their opportunity to dismiss teachers for very little cause during the three years before they gain professional status. Years ago, in my experience, you didn’t see that often. Of course, once a teacher gains professional status, it becomes more difficult but not impossible.</p>
<p>I do agree that bad teachers should be let go. It needs to be determined, though, by professional educators and administrators, what makes a teacher “bad”. I think that the idea of parental feedback, done in a way that takes the emotions out of the equation, is an interesting idea to pursue.</p>
<p>And in answer to Tom’s question: “YES” I have thought a teacher was terrible and had others think the opposite and vice versa. This is one of the pitfalls of a qualitative assessment process. It will be based on people’s personal experience’s and all of the biases that come with that.</p>
<p>I asked because I see the different interpretation of who is a good or excellent employee played out everyday. You are only as good as your current boss thinks you are. I have seen many instances where an excellent employee gets a new boss and while nothing changes in regard to their job performance all of a sudden the new boss does not see the employee in the same light. I could imagine the same thing happening to teachers.</p>
<p>Absolutely. Teaching is no different than any other in that regard. Quality teaching is prone to subjectivity in more ways than many other profession because you have so many factors in the equation. Each child is a variable, the budget, the administration, the teachers that the children have had previous to that teacher are all variables, the curriculum is also a variable. Obviously there are some common traits that make a teacher successful in their job. In my opinion some of those traits would be genuine passion for learning, empathy and respect for students, good organizational skills, patience and a deep knowledge and understanding of the content area. I also think a really great teacher is one who strives to improve year after year.</p>
<p>Teachers vary, though in style of instruction, personality, etc. Some teachers suit some kids and others don’t. Some teachers can be a benefit and a blessing to all or most of their students and some, well…they should be in another profession.</p>
<p>We have encountered some “bad” teachers who some parents adored. These were teachers who were pretty lazy and did the minimal but very open to “parent involvement”, ie, dad would come in and give a talk about his profession for a whole class period and mom would organize the field trip or the group project. There would be an obvious love fest going on between such teachers and a few families. Then the kids from those families would win citizenship or academic awards. And those families would talk up these teachers.</p>
<p>Not all parents care that much about whether or not the teacher teaches effectively. Some parents view the school system as a big political challenge where the object is to get on the good side of the teachers and then leverage that for fairly meaningless benefits. I saw this much more in public than in private.</p>
<p>^^^
Yes. I have seen that, too. But I have also seen, more frequently, teachers who are wise to that kind of manipulation and, even better, administrators who anticipate it, strive to prevent it and take action to remedy it when it happens. Sometimes that means reigning in the teacher but, just as frequently, it means reigning in the parent and gently showing them where their place is in the scheme of their child’s education. It has also been my experience that, as much as some parents may “talk up” any one teacher, the administrator is more than aware of who is doing there job and who isn’t. Now if we could get them to act on it we would be on the road to a better educational experience for all of our kids.</p>
<p>For the teachers here, do you feel that your colleagues who are poor teachers know that they are poor teachers or do you feel that they don’t recognize that their performance is below expectations? </p>
<p>I am a new teacher and I’m very open to learning new techniques for the classroom. I have seen that the bad teachers in my school really have no clue that their methods are not working. So for bad teachers to improve is really impossible if they don’t even know that there’s a problem.</p>
<p>^^^
What a great question! I never thought about that. I guess that some know and some don’t. The ones that know may not really care although maybe they do and they don’t know what or how to fix it.</p>
<p>I know, in my case, when I am having a sub standard day. I know when a lesson is a flop. I work on improving on those things but I may not be one of those bad teachers simply because I care when things don’t go well and i change and grow accordingly. I think that the teaching profession, like many others, tends to function on an avoidance system. When someone is screwing up, it seems to be approached in such a delicate and subtle way that the the teacher may not be getting the message. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I do think there is a population of teachers who get comfortable and complacent. One of the characteristics of the teaching job that is unique is that we often function in a vacuum (except for the students, of course). We can go days without having another adult enter our room. You have to be a self motivated and self disciplined person to stay on your toes under those circumstances. In most work settings, your boss is ever present, or at least coworkers are there. People tend to perform for others. When the only others in the room are kids, I can see certain personalities taking advantage by not being at the top of their game. If I was an administrator, I would do a lot of unannounced drop-ins.</p>
<p>One of the biggest criticisms that the teachers that I know HAVE about administrators is their lack of presence in the classroom. Those of us who feel we are doing a good job WANT the administrators to come in and see what the kids are doing and learning.</p>
<p>I think it depends on the subject matter that is being taught. If it is a math or english, the teacher will get annual feedback in the form of NCLB standardized tests results. If those results are substandard for more than a year (compared to other teachers in the school who are teaching the same population), then clearly the teacher must KNOW that s/he is not peforming that well. At this point, any administrator worth his salt would intervene to provide coaching. </p>
<p>I think that, with respect to math and english teachers at least, it would be very hard to become complacent since the results of your efforts are so public. I agree, however, that complacency may occur for teachers of untested disciplines such as PE, art, history, etc…</p>
<p>Well, here is where there is a BIG difference bet public and private schools: private schools do not pay much attention to standardized tests unless they chose to, for both the students and the teachers.
While I am against “teaching to the test” as a limited approach for curriculum, I can say that “ignore the test, because we are above those things” is also fraught with dangers, which we have experienced personally.
Nothing is black and white.
A careful system of evaluation might include standardized test results, but it should also look at the students’ results on tests and papers given by the teacher. And a look at how the work is graded, what the comments were, and what sort of trajectory the students were on through the year.</p>
<p>^^^ True, pmom, my comments above are purely directed towards PUBLIC schools and whether or not PUBLIC school teachers are aware of their own effectiveness.</p>
<p>@ EPTR
You bring up a good point about teaching and not facing another adult for days. I also agree that administrators should do more drive-bys (lol that’s what we call them at my school). I think administrators should do informal evaluations and give feedback to teachers more often. Even the best teachers can improve in someway and often times it just takes another adult to notice something. </p>
<p>@camathmom
I hadn’t thought about the standardized tests but you are right. It can definitely show a bad teacher for math/English. Although, I’ve come across teachers that just hate kids but I don’t doubt that those kids can still pass the exam. Sometimes it’s just a personality that makes a bad teacher and if that’s the case, how would an administrator go about firing the teacher?</p>
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<p>I don’t agree. In fact, as a teacher and as a parent I have witnessed more complacency and laziness in the form of “academic” teachers than specialists. When we talk about results, we are not just talking about test scores. We are talking about evidence that the kids are learning and engaged. We’re talking about use of best practices in the classroom, regardless of whether it is an art room or a math room. When you walk into a classroom of a successful teacher, the students are engaged in what is going on. The lesson is directly related to standards in the framework of that discipline. Time isn’t being wasted. Poor test scores are not, IMO, a concrete indicator of failure on the teacher’s part. There are many factors that contribute to those scores including the performance of the previous teachers the students had.</p>
<p>Just a couple of examples: the bio teacher my D had who spent the class looking at wedding gowns and having the kids weigh in on which one to buy. The math teacher who would leave the room and tell the kids not to tell anyone he was gone for most of the class. The English teacher who would get so frustrated when the kids didn’t “get” the lesson that she would cry and leave the room. Were these teachers so concerned about test scores that they were on top of their game? If that’s the top of their game, well…that’s frightening.</p>
<p>What I meant to say is that test scores are not a DECISIVE way to evaluate a teacher’s performance. They are, in fact, concrete evidence along with other factors that need to be considered.</p>
<p>To answer tom’s question, when parents talk about a teacher being “good,” I have learned to ask for an explanation and details if I must make a decision based on friends’ assessments. I’ve seen that some parents think a teacher is good if they never get any notes home or phone calls about their child’s behavior, eg. the teacher knows how to handle Johnny. In reality, it could just mean the teacher has a high tolerance for chaos and bad behavior, or that it’s a tough group and Johnny is the least of his concerns. Others like a teacher who doesn’t give much homework. That wouldn’t be my idea of a good teacher, necessarily, though I don’t like when teachers assign a lot of busy-work. Some parents like the fun teachers–the ones all the kids want to have because they’re just so cool. Most of them I’d probably dislike intensely. My criteria are different than that of many other parents, and that’s why I’ve really appreciated some teachers that all the other parents hated. One of my favorites was viewed as really tough, and parents thought she expected way too much. I loved her because she was probably the only teacher my special ed. daughter had ever had who didn’t somehow communicate lower expectations to her based on the fact that she has an IEP. By the way, my D excelled in that class because she was expected to, and that year was a turning point in our own expectations for our D.</p>
<p>Ladies, it’s almost summer. I don’t think if I were a teacher I’d want to come here and debate how good or lousy a job teachers do after a hard day’s work, so I say you’ve done enough giving each other lumps for now, eh? You’re not responsible for fixing the entire system. Keep doing your best with the kidlets and today, relax! Can’t work all the time. Take care.</p>
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<p>I agree with you. However, if you read my post carefully, I talked about test results over more than one year compared with other teachers in the school who are teaching the same population and the same subject. I don’t think you can judge a teacher by one year of data, but certainly after several years, a trend can be discerned.</p>
<p>And, true, effectiveness should not solely be determined by test scores, but at least for public schools where the stakes are extremely high for math/english performance, adequate test scores is a minimum requirement.</p>
<p>reddinosaur: As GFG so eloquently points out, teacher beauty (ie personality) is in the eye of the beholder.</p>