<p>Seems there are a lot of ways to view this one. </p>
<p>I know of kids who are aware of the right and wrong and of the risk of something and who are very careful when doing it anyhow in an attempt to not get caught.</p>
<p>I know of some kids who proclaim that they are Teflon and don’t make much effort to try not to get caught even though they know they are running a risk.</p>
<p>The careful ones MAY get a message when the system comes down hard on someone else–BE MORE CAREFUL NOT TO GET CAUGHT.</p>
<p>The Teflon ones don’t get that message and when it is them that get caught will argue that the law/rule is dumb and/or that the punishment is too harsh. </p>
<p>If “good judgment” equates to not doing risky (or illegal) stuff, I have no idea where “smart” fits in if you mean IQ. Some high IQ kids don’t do risky stuff, some do.</p>
<p>07Dad-if the student was already 18 in Ca he would whip out his medical marijuana card. My 19 yr old said that his senior year the number of 18 yr olds with cards was huge. He also said few of their parents had a clue that the kid had a card.
He tells us it is easy to get a card. All the kids know the Dr’s to go to. He has friend’s who have cards due to not being able to sleep, ADD and an assortment of other ailments. He swears he doesn’t have a card but I am not 100% buying that. Also plenty of dispensaries in our town. My son said at his high school it was easier to get pot then alcohol.
I think these kids took a risk and they were caught. But I do think the punishment is severe.</p>
<p>IMO–that’s a wise woman. Everything with a little skepticism. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Perhaps if I were making the rules, I’d agree with you. But, since I don’t get to make them, I took the route of explaining to S that if he did the crime, he’d have to be ready to serve the time. He knew I loved him, but that I couldn’t (or perhaps wouldn’t) be his rescuer if he took risks and got nailed.</p>
<p>We had an incident in middle school (not substance related) where he and I got to walk the walk. I advised, but did not try to back the school off. The process ran its course and he made it through relatively unscathed, although I thought (silently) that he got off too easy.</p>
<p>I do not believe that I could ever tell my S that a penalty that he was aware of in advance of the offending conduct was “too severe.” In most things in life, we don’t get to renegotiate the consequences after we have messed up. To allow him to think otherwise does a disservice to him.</p>
<p>Just went and looked at the rules for our public high school. It is not clear what the punishment is. It appears to give the school and district choices. Drug or alcohol use on campus may be cause for suspension or expulsion. May also be referred to local law enforcement. May result in placement in alternative school setting or referred to drug treatment programs.
07 Dad we have always been clear with our kids that they might not always like the rules but they need to live by them.</p>
<p>S’s infraction allowed for a lot of leeway at his private school. Choices v. Zero tolerance always reminds me of sentence ranges in Texas state court and sentencing guidelines in federal court for federal crimes that seem to be automatic. Choices can be applied in a discriminatory manner (think jocks and/or wealthy inflential parents as the stereotypical examples), but zero tolerance can be massive overkill in certain circumstances.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I never would go that far. I always stressed that these are the rules and these are the punishments/consequences if caught violating them. I gave graphic and personal examples of why there are certain rules and attitudes relating to substances that can be abused. I left it to him to draw his conclusions.</p>
<p>I’ve always told them that they don’t have to follow the rules, but they have to be willing to pay the consequence. Like when I go five miles over the speed limit. I can’t then argue the speed limit is too slow and I shouldn’t have to pay the ticket. The consequence for going much faster or driving recklessly may be death. That consequence I’m not willing to pay.</p>
<p>I don’t personally believe that the drinking age should be 21. Eighteen year olds are adults and should be allowed and taught to drink responsibly. But the law says 21. So I will not serve minors in my home, and if they are caught, even if I think the law is stupid, they will pay the consequence. </p>
<p>IMHO to teach them that the laws and rules shouldn’t be observed does them a disservice.</p>
That seems a bit harsh. Just because they don’t agree with you doesn’t make them wrong. In my world, following the rules or paying the consequence is the reality.</p>
<p>“alternative education is for the kids who cannot function in a mainstream classroom, often due to emotional or behavioral problems (diagnosed problems). To put bright young people in that environment is crazy and way to PC if you ask me.”</p>
<p>I just need a placeholder to find when I can formulate an appropriate response.</p>
<p>Note to self; emotional or behavioral problems (diagnosed problems)do not include “bright young people”.</p>
<p>I know for a fact that my kid would make stupid decisions. Actually she did once and was very, very lucky. I still tell her all the time about the consequences of making another mistake. I would expect that the consequences would be very tough even though she’s a great kid. When I filled out her sister’s FAFSA I made her read the part about drug convictions out loud to me. (She has never, to my knowledge, done drugs and definitely not been caught – that was not the mistake I referred to). It’s scary that something so stupid can change a life, but it absolutely can and there’s nothing to be done but try not to violate the rules.</p>
<p>The punishment is, in my opinion, too harsh.</p>
<p>However, in a time of decreasing resources, look for this sort of draconian punishment to be imposed more often and for many other things. This is one way to “winnow the herd”.</p>
<p>Everyone should teach their children to be polite and respectful to police and to say nothing except “I want my lawyer please”.</p>
<p>" ‘alternative education is for the kids who cannot function in a mainstream classroom, often due to emotional or behavioral problems (diagnosed problems). To put bright young people in that environment is crazy and way to PC if you ask me.’</p>
<p>I just need a placeholder to find when I can formulate an appropriate response."</p>
<p>I’m beginning to think that I offended at least one person on this forum. If I have offended anyone, I apologize. In our local school districts, many of the students in the alternative ed. program are students with diagnosed emotional and/or behavioral problems who have difficulty functioning in the mainstream environment. Remember, the special education laws mandate “least restrictive environment.” For any child with an identified disability, school systems try to place them in the least restrictive environment possible. An alternative ed. program is more restrictive. </p>
<p>The students involved in this case are not special ed students or students with disabilities. They are youthful offenders who made a serious mistake/serious lack of judgement. I don’t agree with placing them in a restrictive environment. I do agree with consequences: legal charges, suspension, arrest, are all fine. However, outplacing them for an extended length of time does not make sense to me. I worry that political correctedness can get out of hand at times. Zero tolerance policies make sense at first, but sometimes they relieve us of the need to use good judgement. </p>
<p>There are enough built in consequences already with this type of offense. I just don’t agree with outplacing a student’s education unless they need that type of more restrictive environment on a long term basis. </p>
<p>Again, my apologies if I have offended everyone. Alternative education may mean different things in different areas.</p>
<p>BaystateNutmeg wrote:
“I apologize. In our local school districts, many of the students in the alternative ed. program are students with diagnosed emotional and/or behavioral problems who have difficulty functioning in the mainstream environment.”</p>
<p>No need to apologize, really. Your comments were not offensive. In my kid’s district, the alternative school is mostly for kids who have made the choice to not follow rules that are in place in the regular school. They like the more lax environment. A perfect place for those who break the rules.</p>
<p>If they don’t go to the alternative school, then how does the regular school insure that their bad influence isn’t continued there? (pressure to smoke, etc.)</p>
<p>^^^
By making it clear that there are consequence - perhaps having to finish schoolwork from home for the balance of the year. And a two strikes you’re OUT standard.
Kicking them out for a year after a first offense is too harsh. My opinion. Many disagree. That’s what makes the world go round :)</p>
<p>When children are punished, the goal is to fix them, not screw them up and limit their future prospects.</p>
<p>Almost half of high school seniors smoke pot at least once. Do you really think that almost half of kids deserve to spend a year in an “alternative school”?</p>
<p>lockn posted:
"Almost half of high school seniors smoke pot at least once. Do you really think that almost half of kids deserve to spend a year in an “alternative school”? "</p>
<p>No, I don’t. But there is a big difference between smoking pot on your own time and smoking pot during a school-sponsored activity when the consequences of that behavior were set out in advance and when the risks of taking part in that behavior were very high. The sad fact is that some of the things kids do and some of the choices they make will adversely affect their futures. </p>
<p>If a kid fails to put enough time into studying for the SAT, he may not get the score that he is capable of getting. It’s his choice, and the consequences are his as well. He may have his educational opportunities limited as a result of making that choice.</p>
<p>I know that our school district claims that the alernative school isn’t lesser in any way. The difference is primarily in the rules that are not enforced and the lax environment compared to the regular school. It seems like a logical consequence for those who have made a conscious choice to break school rules. Whether or not you think the punishment is harsh (and I personally would not have inflicted that long-term a consequence), the kids knew what the breaking of the rule would mean. The responsibility is theirs.</p>
<p>Strongly agree that smoking pot on the school trip is a whole 'nother level. If you just want to smoke pot, you do it in somebody’s basement. You only do it on the school trip because you believe that you make the rules and to hell with everybody else.</p>
<p>Also, there are liability issues here. The type of parent who would blame the school for their children’s lapses are usually the first ones who would sue the school should their little darlings endanger themselves while high on pot. I’ve seen some parents blame colleges for their kids alcohol poisonings. The school has to be able to enforce the rules for its own protection or it will end up being sued by some parent who thinks the school should take responsibility for the kids using pot in the first place. Why should schools put themselves at risk by providing these extra opportunities and privileges if they don’t have the support of the parents for the rules?</p>
<p>In our school district, there are not enough spots in continuation/alternative schools for all the kids who desperately need them. Putting these kids in those schools means that someone who needs the space more doesn’t get it.</p>
<p>The argument that some have advanced that “gifted kids should know better” really ticks me off. Sorry, but gifted kids are still kids, and aren’t magically going to have great judgment all the time just because they are gifted.</p>
<p>In my district, discipline is supposed to be “corrective and instructive.” I think that’s a great standard to strive for, and a year out of school (I suspect these parents are very unlikely to send their kids to an ALC) is abusive. (My district often falls far short of that standard.)</p>
<p>I hope that all parents here who think the ALC is an appropriate placement for these kids have actually visited such schools. My son spent eight years in special ed schools – these are NOT the “alternative learning centers” that kids who are under disciplinary action attend.</p>
<p>Essentially, the school district is saying “Ciao, see you next year” to this kids.</p>
<p>I agree that there absolutely should be consequences for these kids, but they should be corrective and instructive. Regardless of how bright they are, they are still kids.</p>