Umm. No. I think you exactly missed the point. Nitty gritty being personally serving those in need, not donating money or creating a bureaucracy. Making the sandwich that you feed the needy person. Cleaning up the wee wee pad in an animal shelter. Walking up several flights of steps to bring dinner as part of Meals on Wheels to a shut-in. Personal, sometimes dirty work, that takes up your time and effort. I am curious as to how it breaks down in terms of donating money versus personal service. I don’t know and haven’t found any data.
I think you can find value in religious principles, and in ceremony & ritual, without believing in the underlying dogma.
Many people obviously find value in having a ready made structure to hang their behavior on.
I wasnt disagreeing with that, but with the assumption that secular organizations and the people who donate to, and participate in them, do not make as important as a contribution, as religious ones.
If you agree with Bill Gates’ programs, then you think his work is all good. If you are an anti-vaccer, then you think he is controlling the world with his money (or maybe you’re happy he’s vaccinating the world so that you don’t have to vaccinate your kids). He doesn’t do his work to promote religion, which is his choice because he doesn’t have to ask anyone for money to support the foundation. He’s doing what he wants to do.
If you agree with the Duggars that spreading the word is good, then send them money because they don’t have as much as Bill. Their goal is to bring religion to people who don’t have it or who have a different religion. That’s their belief, and no different than other religions that want to convert people. There is no question that Mormons on mission are trying to get people to convert. Some religions get most converts through marriage, but others go out and seek new members through missionary work. Feed them, bring them water, but what is most important to these missionaries is to bring them God.
The Duggars must be doing their jobs as they have you all interested in knowing what they are up to, and that’s their mission, to get the word out, to make you aware. Many on this thread are now aware of them and their mission when quite a few of you said you’d never heard of them before. They don’t hide who they are, they want you to be talking about them. I don’t remember a public outcry against Billy Graham or Rick Warren or the Crystal Cathedral guy asking people to buy their books, send in money, join them on missions. They all had kids who had troubles during their teen years. If you weren’t interested, you turned the channel. If you don’t support the Duggars, don’t send them money (I don’t, don’t buy their books, don’t agree with their methods). I’ve watched the show a few times, and did follow it more closely when their youngest was born at 25 weeks as I have a child born at 24 weeks and was just interested in how they dealt with issues for her (not the way I did or would have, so yes, I was a critical watcher). I’m not interested in Scientology, but I might watch a special on it or read an article or wonder about how stupid can John Travolta or Tom Cruise be to follow that crap. Tom and John don’t care because it is one more person talking about Scientology and that’s what they want, publicity.
Your reaction is why I had evangelicals in quotes (ie ‘evangelicals’), to indicate that it was perceived. Sadly, since the “Reagan revolution” and the rise of the religious right, Evangelical has come to mean the socially arch conservative, generally fundamentalist/anti science Christians, it has become the label that the Media used (Headline in todays NY Times, “Evangelicals rethinking their positions in light of the Supreme Court decision”).
“But surely you agree that Christians, generally, think that their beliefs are true for everybody.”
It depends on the Christian, most of the so called Evangelicals (aka religious right, fundamentalist, Mega Church going crowd) generally believe they know what the true faith is and certainly want the law to reflect their beliefs, Orthodox Catholics (ie non cafeteria Catholics) believe their faith is the only true Christian faith. However, many mainstream Christians don’t believe that, progressive Christian churches leave a lot to the person to decide what is right, mainstream protestant churches recognize other faith traditions as valid, cafeteria Catholics are likely to think that their faith is what works for them, but isn’t for everyone. Technically, all Christians are evangelicals, part of being Christian is to spread the Good News, but many, if not most, see that as showing the love of Christ but respect the fact that that may not come to the person at all, or might come to them in a different way. I belonged to a church for a while that taught the questions were a lot more valid than the answers a lot of the time, kind of hard to make a case for your beliefs being the ‘only truth’ when you yourself don’t entirely know:) (There is an old joke about Episcopalians , the branch I used to belong to “What happens when you cross an Episcopalian with a Jehova’s Witness? A: You get someone who knocks on your door but doesn’t know what to say about what they believe” smile
There was no such assumption, except by you. I was asking about an aspect of an issue I hadn’t read anything about when there is data concerning other aspects. That’s all. A query for information.
Yes you’re right about that. I saw the NY Times headline and shook my head. So very lazy. Or ignorant. Or possessed of an agenda. But they are still factually incorrect. The New York Times incorrect? But I repeat myself . . .
This is exactly right and why we have all sorts of inter-faith STUFF, and why my pastor and the Catholic priest across the street often show up in each other’s congregations. But not parking lots. Never, ever parking lots. Mainstream Protestant doctrine and tradition is often a very great surprise to people who only get their information from the New York Times and its ilk, which is why I like to clarify whenever possible. There are a lot of people who don’t have the opportunity to learn what they don’t know.
I believe that there are Christian denominations now that even recognize Judaism as valid, as opposed to the traditional view that it was entirely superseded by Christianity.
There are? Tell me more.
There are definitely denominations that do not think they have to proselytize Jews. My church has held joint services with the local synagogue and has had bible studies (OT of course) and shared Seders.
I’ll only point out there’s room for personal growth in all of us and the sins of youth don’t have to dog you to your deathbed.
Water might be murky but it isn’t deep, LF.
Merriam-Webster defines rube as, roughly: uneducated and country. Could, once again, just be me but that’s widely understood as the native habitat of the great Evangelical population that so dismays a segment of our population. That the Duggar’s peculiar version of whatever is constantly being conflated with the same is clear to anyone who’s paying attention -by zooser’s constant, patient explanations, if nothing else.
Bill Gates’ religion is capitalism, likely a form of bully capitalism.
Sometimes, I think memory is a curse. Anyway, I vividly remember some part of the (first and most famous) Microsoft anti-trust trial. And Bill Gates stepping down, and smiling on TV speaking of “vaccinating the children of the world”. He seemed about 1000% insincere but who knows, maybe he was bored. Maybe it’s really all Melinda driving this train. It sure seemed at the time that he was trying to distract people from his trial testimony and all the Microsoft bullying that it portrayed.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: This thread is veering way off topic, into a discussion of religion. Please get back on track if you want the thread to remain open.
In case anyone is interested in getting this thread back to talking about the Duggars, http://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/1088038/jim-bob-michelle-duggar-foreclosure-lawsuit
That ‘article’ about the foreclosure is full of holes. Many many many deeds I’ve reviewed in several states transfer the property ‘upon TEN ($10) DOLLARS PAID’ Many states do not require the actual amount of the transfer to be included on the deed so people use $10 to show a value was paid. Now if there was a mortgage on the property that wasn’t paid off on transfer, the holder of the mortgage can foreclose. State law would control whether the senior lien holders must give notice to subsequent owners/transferees, mortgagees, judgment holders, etc. and the Duggars are claiming they are subsequent (to the mortgage) transferees.
This is not a big deal, and only made one by a very uninformed ‘reporter.’
It is confusing, nevertheless. If they bought the house – for any amount – why did this mortgage continue to exist?
Because some mortgages, especially on primary residences, are assumable. Some loans on commercial or income property must be assumed (i.e. yield maintenance or ones with large prepayment penalties)
Another reason is the original lien retains the debt.
When H and I bought our first joint home his primary residence was used as part of the down payment. The developer did not assume title or the lien but rather the transaction was accomplished via contract independent of the bank. All future billing statements went to the developers address. The developer then was supposed to make the ongoing payments, which she did for a while. Then she stopped. It haunted H’s credit rating for several years.
We have gotten much smarter since then and would structure the deal differently.
That said, real estate transactions that fall outside of the ‘I’m purchasing my primary residence and want to apply for a mortgage’ can be quite complicated. And those not in the business would easily be confused.
There’s nothing to see here…except a ‘journalist’ trying to get on the Duggar media frenzy bandwagon.
http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/duggar-debts-lawsuits-revealed/
From the tabloid Radar Online - Duggars and their debt-free brag?
Those are not debts, they are claims against them. Disputed. If they lose the case, they pay them. I don’t find that unusual. I pay my phone and cable bills in arrears, is that ‘debt’? I pay my credit card bills in full every month, but at any time during the month it is money I owe.
I also pay my taxes in arrears.
It’s a feeding frenzy and a lot of schadenfreude.