<p>Chapel Hill (the town) has always been known as a “blue island in a red sea.” This is true for Durham as well. Even though NC, on the whole, typically votes Republican (though if we’re lucky, that will change come 2008!), Durham and Chapel Hill do not. And UNC-CH has always been known as a very liberal school located in the middle of a progressive, politically liberal area. The thing is, the town was built around the University, not the other way around. Actually, I think most universities are fairly liberal. Certainly, conservatives go there, but by and large, it’s fairly common knowledge that it’s a very liberal school–always has been. I don’t really have any "facts’ on hand to supply here. Sorry.</p>
<p>If you’re judging whether a school is liberal or conservative based on rankings by black journals, UNC is typically ranked very high by Black Enterprise also, and for years, has been ranked #1 by Journal of Blacks in Higher Education (not only for the high percentage of African American students, but for recruitment of black faculty as well). I don’t know about the LGBT, but I’m sure there are strong campus and community resources at UNC as well. <a href=“http://lgbt.unc.edu/[/url]”>http://lgbt.unc.edu/</a></p>
<p>I dunno, its just that Duke has so many kids from the NE and Cali (liberal areas) that I’m usually surprised when I hear a school with kids mostly from NC can be considered more liberal.</p>
<p>BTW, I don’t think NC is that conservative I think the '04 spread was within 5%, just that its more conservative compared to places like NJ, PA, Mass. and Cali.</p>
<p>Yeah, I can see why you might think otherwise. Although UNC and Chapel Hill have always been politically liberal, even though 82% are in-state, people tend to forgot that NC (most especially in the last decade) has had such an influx of people from out-of-state, that (at least in some areas, like Charlotte and the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill), one would be hard-pressed to find a native North Carolinian. And a large number of UNC students are from those two areas.</p>
<p>I agree with Jack – especially about the RTP area. What is that joke that Cary “stands for”? Something about relocated yankees? haha And Charlotte being such a banking capital is filled with out-of-staters (though I guess some can make some argument that stereotypically, those financial types are more right-leaning?) </p>
<p>In any case, I go to Duke and would absolutely back a statement that believes UNC is generally a more liberal campus than Duke is. Duke just seems so moderate, and sometimes I’d go as far as to say a lot of students are apathetic when it comes to politics… but it certainly isn’t liberal. When there’s like one protest a semester (students against sweatshops, I’m looking at you!) the students just pass it.</p>
<p>bluestar: Cary: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees ;)</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess: Well, you need to get yourself over there to see just what the ‘Southern part of Heaven’ is all about. Don’t you go to Duke? You’re only 8 miles down the road. You can take the Robertson bus; that should be your first order of business when you get back to campus in August. :)</p>
<p>hawk Im not objecting to the use of merit aid, but rather the use of lists of standardized scores w/o putting them in the proper context. </p>
<p>Take the list of the greatest single season HR hitters (for example) Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Maris and Ruth on numbers alone, the 1st 3 seem more impressive (having hit 73, 70 and 66 HRs in a season as opposed to 61 and 60, respectively), but taking into account the fact that the 1st 3 played in an era where there are more games in a season (then did Ruth and Maris) and hit in smaller ballparks, the achievements of the 1st 3 (irrespective of the whole roids issue) is not as impressive as when strictly looking at the HR totals.</p>
<p>Along the same lines one cannot look at these lists of standardized scores w/o also taking into account the relevant facts (such as merit aid).</p>
<p>thoughtpro
</p>
<p>From the Duke scholars and fellows website </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>70 merit scholars make up about 4.5% of each incoming class.</p>
<p>Uhh, so these bright kids turn down free money, and while Im sure top standardized scores arent the sole criteria, Im pretty sure Duke isnt giving these schollies out to applicants who score 1400 m/v.</p>
<p>mahras
</p>
<p>The calculations dont quite work like that.</p>
<p>Someone previously posted that WUSTL offered about 120 or so merit schollies w/o them, do you really think WUSTL would have as high an average of standardized score as it does (esp. in light of its fairly weak yield %).</p>
<p>Jack
</p>
<p>The percentages is the right way of looking at the overall strength of a student body.</p>
<p>For instance, the size of Chinas middle-class is expected to hit the 300 million mark relatively soon (thats equal to the pop. of the entire US), however, just b/c China would have a middle class equal to the entire pop. of the US doesnt mean that its population, overall, enjoys a standard of living equal to the typical American (not with an estimated 1 billion or so living on substandard income).</p>
<p>Of course, one has to take into account the large class sizes of public universities and the fact that they have a different mandate from private universities but that still doesnt take away from the overall caliber of the student body.</p>
<p>k&s, while the Duke Merit program might state that the number is 70, the actual range of scholars varies. For example, class of 2011 had 60…Class of 2010 had fewer…but the number is actually 40 if you discount the scholarships reserved for African Americans or take financial need into account. For example: “Undergraduate University Scholars are exceptional…students who …have demonstrated through official financial-aid applications… that they need scholarship support to achieve their academic ambitions.” And some scholarships (such as the BN scholarship and Trinity scholarship - about 20 people) are reserved for NC residents. The Howard scholarship is only for URM’s (about 10 people). </p>
<p>The Robertson and AB scholars are the only scholarships Duke has without a strict geographic (NC only), racial (African American), or financial aid requirement. These total to about 25 for Class of 2011.</p>
<p>Even if every scholar had a 1600, and was replaced by someone with a 1460 (Duke Average) then the actual average would drop to like a 1450 (same as Dartmouth, Stanford, or Brown). </p>
<p>Either way, at Duke the average strength of your classmates is much, much higher than the other schools on this thread.</p>
<p>Yeah, so the class of 2011 has 61 merit scholars (thats still 4% of the incoming class).</p>
<p>As for scholarships for African-Americans or those who need extra aid (irrespective of the financial aid that Duke would normally offer these students) these are the very same type of students that other schools are competing for however, with these schollies, Duke has the upper-hand in attracting these types of students.</p>
<p>k&s,
I don’t think your baseball analogy holds (or else I’m not understanding it). According to your approach, it would be like lowering your evaluation of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays because they offered a top player more money than did the Boston Red Sox. But think about free agency and how teams regularly pursue players. Never do you mark a franchise down because it went after great players and spent money to get them rather than just relied on historical prestige to attract them. </p>
<p>The same is true with college admissions. If Student A with high test scores is out there and trying to decide between ABC university and XYZ university and ABC is offering him merit aid and he decides to take it, then why should that lower anyone’s view of ABC. And who cares if ABC used merit aid to get the benefit of Student A’s test scores? His/Her matriculation to ABC is all that matters.</p>
<p>hawk - you’re hypo is a different scenario (unlike mine which was totally dependent on a numerical ranking).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Weren’t you the one who stated that schools used merit aid to boost their chances with top applicants and hence, better compete for a top-notch student body with schools with more traditional prestige?</p>
<p>Sorry that I"m a little slow today, but I’m not sure what point you are making. My thought is that merit aid is a useful tool that institutions can and should use in the college admissions process. I don’t think that its use should have any bearing on how a school is ranked or viewed by others.</p>
<p>hawk - yeah, you are being a little slow today.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t you agree that a whether a school offers merit aid has a bearing on a list comprising of **nothing but standardized scores<a href=“we’re%20not%20talking%20about%20the%20overall%20quality%20of%20a%20school”>/b</a>?</p>
<p>Whether merit aid is a useful tool or not (obviously it is) is not the issue, but it is only fair to take that “tool” into account when looking at a list comprising solely of standardized scores.</p>
<p>On a purely nos. basis - Bonds single-season HR total seems mighty impressive compared to Maris’ 61 - but one gets a more fair picture when one takes into account that Bonds got to play in a season with more games, play in smaller parks and get the benefit of the “tool” of steroids.</p>
<p>Duke, through these merit schollies, is able to get the top-notch African-American applicants or applicants from less affluent backgrounds (which all schools are competing for).</p>
<p>By being able to attract these top-notch applicants from desireable demographics, it gives Duke much more leeway in accepting the typical high scoring applicant.</p>
<p>I guess you don’t think WUSTL’s merit schollies has anything to do with the average SAT score of its student body as well.</p>
<p>k&s,
I thought that was what you meant, but the summer heat and my broken AC has me wilting today… </p>
<p>Now that you’ve clarified your meaning, I will say simply that I disagree. While making qualified observations are useful in understanding how a particular ranking came to pass, I don’t care if a school uses merit aid aggressively and that improves its standing and ranking even on a list just for standardized test scores. The students are where the students are. The student who ends up at Duke instead of Harvard should be counted fully as a Duke student and not a half-baked one because Duke somehow “stole” him/her in the recruiting business. If you start making allowances for the why behind the numbers, you will end up with endless variations dependent on IS status, legacies, athletes, merit aid, URMs, developmental, etc., all of whom had some type of preferential treatment.</p>
<p>hawk - Pretty much all schools deal with legacies, athletes, URMs, etc. - only a select few of the top schools offer merit aid.</p>
<p>I never stated that they shouldn’t be counted fully as students at those respective schools (by virtue of their stats being included in the average - they are) - and what’s the point of analysis (and of these debates) if one can’t look at these factors?</p>
<p>k&s, so there a re about 60 scholars, and the majority of them aren’t pure merit scholars…several are for just North Carolina students, and 10 are for URMs</p>
<p>So, out of a student body of 1650…I’m not sure how taking these scholars out and replacing them with “average” Duke students (which score on average of 1460) would change Duke’s average scores much.</p>
<p>k&s,
I think that the variations are greater than you allow. For example, Duke plays sports in the ACC and successfully competes on a national level in many sports and has significantly greater resources dedicated to athletic success than does Harvard. Should we pull out the athletes to give a more accurate picture of the “real” SAT level for Duke? </p>
<p>Or Duke has a charter requirement that 13% of its students MUST come from NC. Should we pull them out to get the “correct” SAT level for Duke students? </p>
<p>I understand your arguments and I’m not saying that you can’t point out the differences, but I would disagree that the these qualifications such as merit aid would disqualify Duke from a direct SAT comparison with any school, including Harvard or any of the schools that don’t expressly provide merit aid.</p>
</p>