Duke,UNC ,Michigan, or Purdue

[jack]

<p>Interesting debate. I love how people always think that schools that offer merit scholarships somehow “steal” them from the Ivy’s, or other highly selective schools, which suggests that they somehow “own” these students to begin with. A lot of students I know have made Duke, or UNC, their top choice school before they ever know about receiving a merit scholarship. Also, other highly selective schools, including the Ivy’s, may not offer merit scholarships, but if they want a student badly enough, they’ll certainly make it highly affordable and attractive, via financial aid–which they often refer to as “scholarships” or “grants.” </p>

<p>One little correction here, too. The BN Duke Scholarship is for applicants from both North Carolina <em>and</em> South Carolina. And while one’s SAT score would have to be at a fairly competitive level to get into Duke in the first place, all of these merit scholarships require much much more than just a high SAT score.</p>

[mahras2]

<p>

The calculations don’t quite work like that.</p>

<p>Someone previously posted that WUSTL offered about 120 or so merit schollies – w/o them, do you really think WUSTL would have as high an average of standardized score as it does (esp. in light of its fairly weak yield %).

</p>

<p>Actually yes the calculations do work out like that. Its basic maths. </p>

<p>

Based on what?

</p>

<p>Based on back of envelope calculations.</p>

<p>WashU accepts people with high SAT scores. There are plenty that apply there (ton of LI/NYC kids apply…all of them with pretty strong standardized scores). </p>

<p>Extreme example: If a school has 3000 kids and 135 (4.5%) are merit scholars. If the 2930 other kids have 2000 SAT average while the merit scholars have 2400, the average comes out to 2061. A 3.05% inflation using an extreme example. It isn’t that difficult to realize merit scholars do not make that great of a deal to average stats at a school of Duke’s or WashU’s size.</p>

<p>I don’t see how you are arguing with such a position when it defies common sense. Such a handful of kids do not affect the SAT range so drastically that the school actually changes in its statistical profile. </p>

<p>Getting these scholarships doesn’t require perfect standardized scores (I was a finalist…don’t have jack). The main reason for these scholarships is to attract kids of specific types to campus (who are in short demand). It has less to do with SATs. And yes we are discussing about average SAT scores and not which “quota” of students Duke is actively recruiting. And there is no reason why it should be discounted that these students do go to Duke. I could give a rat’s arse that they attend school for free…it helps the academic/educational/social atmosphere.</p>

[k_amp_s]

<p>thoughtprocess -

k&s, so there a re about 60 scholars, and the majority of them aren’t pure merit scholars…several are for just North Carolina students, and 10 are for URMs

</p>

<p>Whether they are for just NC applicants or for URMs – they still are intended for the best applicants from those pools (for instance, Stanford would have to compete for the best URM applicants w/o the benefit of the lure of merit aid).</p>

<p>

So, out of a student body of 1650…I’m not sure how taking these scholars out and replacing them with “average” Duke students (which score on average of 1460) would change Duke’s average scores much

</p>

<p>It’s not as simple as that. Say Duke, with the merit aid, is able to attract 20 of the best URM applicants (with a small pool of top URM applicants, other schools would have to settle for URM applicants with “less burnished” credentials). </p>

<p>In addition, partially filling their URM quotient with some top applicants would also give schools like Duke leeway with regard to admitting other students, and since these stats usually measure the middle 50%, getting more applicants into the top 25% is beneficial with regard to the statistics for the middle 50%.</p>

<p>I don’t see why you have a problem with this – unless you are also willing to say that merit aid has no material impact on the make-up of the student body at WUSTL.</p>

<p>hawkette –

I think that the variations are greater than you allow. For example, Duke plays sports in the ACC and successfully competes on a national level in many sports and has significantly greater resources dedicated to athletic success than does Harvard. Should we pull out the athletes to give a more accurate picture of the “real” SAT level for Duke?

</p>

<p>Generally, a lot of the athletes (esp. for fb and bb) would fall into the bottom 25% and so would not count in the stats (plus, even if one take out the Ivies, there are other like-schools such as Stanford, NU, Vandy, etc.).</p>

<p>

Or Duke has a charter requirement that 13% of its students MUST come from NC. Should we pull them out to get the “correct” SAT level for Duke students?

</p>

<p>Most schools have those types of nos. with regard to students attending from their state (plus, I’m sure Duke has no trouble finding highly qualified candidates from NC).</p>

<p>

I understand your arguments and I’m not saying that you can’t point out the differences, but I would disagree that the these qualifications such as merit aid would disqualify Duke from a direct SAT comparison with any school, including Harvard or any of the schools that don’t expressly provide merit aid.

</p>

<p>So we should ignore the fact that schools like Duke have better major-sports teams than the Ivy League schools due to the advantage of scholarships and perks for recruits?</p>

[system]

<p>I pointed out that scholarships aren’t truely merit…most have financial aid, geographic, or URM requirements…not just for students with the highest stats. Either way, such a small proportion of student body that it shouldn’t make a difference.</p>

[Sam_Lee]

<p>As long as schools cover 100% of any student’s demonstrated need and have need-blind admission like Duke does, I have no problem with them giving as many merit-based ones as they want. I don’t think they should be faulted in any way. k&s, to be fair, this isn’t any different from Northwestern giving special programs like MMSS or HPME. Many HPMEs wouldn’t turn down Harvard/Yale without HPME. Duke does it with $ while NU does it with special programs. It doesn’t change the fact they are part of the student body.</p>

<p>I do have problem with those schools whose admission is need-aware but at the same time they give merit money.</p>

[k_amp_s]

<p>

I pointed out that scholarships aren’t truely merit…most have financial aid, geographic, or URM requirements…not just for students with the highest stats. Either way, such a small proportion of student body that it shouldn’t make a difference.

</p>

<p>Just b/c they have certain other qualifications doesn’t mean that they aren’t still merit based scholarships (which btw, means that financial aid or need isn’t a factor).</p>

<p>And with regard to these other requirements such as URM – being able to get the top notch URM applicants puts other schools at a disadvantage (less likely to get the top URM applicants).</p>

<p>4-4.5% of the student body is plenty significant (otherwise, how do you explain WUSTL’s gaudy nos? granted, their merit aid rate is around 6-7%).</p>

<p>

As long as schools cover 100% of any student’s demonstrated need and have need-blind admission like Duke does, I have no problem with them giving as many merit-based ones as they want. I don’t think they should be faulted in any way. k&s, to be fair, this isn’t any different from Northwestern giving special programs like MMSS or HPME. Many HPMEs wouldn’t turn down Harvard/Yale without HPME. Duke does it with $ while NU does it with special programs. It doesn’t change the fact they are part of the student body.

</p>

<p>Sam – I’m not faulting them for doing so – but merely putting the stats in the relevant context. As for programs such as HPME – that is a different situation from merit aid.</p>

<p>In the former, students are attracted to academic programs (and based their decisions on that basis – such as picking Penn for Wharton or UoM for Ross) – in the latter, students make choices with regard to $$.</p>