@PurplePlum
you might want to poke around over at millermoms . proboards . com (remove spaces)
imo, they tend to have a good amount of expertise in LD/2E kids. they can help interpret testing and subscores further to give you an idea of good accommodations and modifications. its a solid source of information.
they are pretty welcoming of newbies too 
The psychologist concluded that DDâs results were âall over the placeâ âŠDD scored in either the gifted or high average level in many areas (such as Visual/Spatial, Knowledge, Reasoning, Memory, anything having to do with math, etc), yet low to super low in some other areas (such as rapid Letter Naming, Rapid Digit Naming, Rapid Symbolic Naming, Reading Rate/Fluency, Paragraph Comprehension, etc.)"
@PurplePlum, what you have written is the very definition of a learning disability, especially for a gifted student.
âGifted/LD students are students of superior intellectual ability who exhibit a significant discrepancy between this potential and their level of performance in a particular academic area such as reading, mathematics, spelling, or written expression. Their academic performance is substantially below what would be expected based on their general intellectual ability. As with other children exhibiting learning disabilities, this discrepancy is not due to the lack of educational opportunity in that academic area or other health impairment".
"A child who is Gifted/LD is âsimply one who exhibits great talent or strength in certain areas and disabling weaknesses in othersâ (Brody & Mills 1997, as cited in Bees, 2009)
It really does look like the psychologist who tested your DD is not familiar with what learning disabilities look like in the gifted population. Your daughter is probably not exhibiting the degree of impairment the psychologist is used to seeing in dyslexic children because your daughter at this point has developed a variety of coping mechanisms that help to mitigate her challenges. It is very common for gifted kids to not show any difficulties in school until high school when the work demands start to exceed their ability to cope. In the lower grades they are able to draw upon their other considerable strengths, especially memory, and this masks the difficulties they are experiencing.
I would definitely continue to pursue additional help for your daughter.
This is key - understanding the learning style and keying into it.
Fortunately we figured it out when my son was 11, so he got past the reading barriers very quickly and by the time he got to high school was arranging his own informal modifications across the board by negotiating changes in assignments with his teachers. Heâd wait until after the first grading period (so the teacher would know he was smart and capable) and then essentially barter over assignments â he would approach by saying, âI donât learn well by doing this (whatever the assignment was)⊠could I do this instead?â Often his alternative assignment seemed to be something more difficult to do than what he teacher had assigned, so he pretty much got his way.
He did not want formal labeling or accommodations because he knew he was capable of outperforming other students, but he wasnât afraid to tell a teacher that he was dyslexic as part of explaining his request for alternative assignments. He didnât mind reading or writing, but he didnât like assignments that were repetitive or required him to copy out information from a book, or memorize a passage. Constant struggle with math teachers over the year because heâd work the math out in his head and had difficulty with the âshow your workâ part. Just an intuitive understanding of concepts.
A few random comments since so many knowledgeable people have already commented. Forgive any repetitions of what others have said:
What is the gap between your childâs âverbalâ and âperformanceâ? As I remember, more than 20 points means a learning disability.
âScatterâ in results is common. I donât know why anyone would term it unusual.
Even without a diagnosis, the deficits listed on the testing would seem to warrant some accommodations. But I think they also signal a need for further evaluation from a professional who knows how to frame it in a way that is helpful.
There is no test for ADHD and the testing situation (one on one, few distractions) is not ideal. Even when the radio is put on as a distraction, it hardly resembles real life. The only way to assess is through a questionnaire, and there are some online if you want to look.
This is way out there but check out the Irlen method for visual work. I doubt it applies. But itâs interesting. It involves using colored lenses for reading after some testing for which color works.
You could call Landmark for advice. They have both secondary (dylsexia program) and post-secondary (broader focus) schools and some faculty consult or coach outside of the school. They also have summer programs including a college prep one for summer before going.
We did not meet with disability offices before admittance. You really cannot assess how a school treats any of these issues by visiting the DO anyway. Often it is the deans and professors who make the difference. And we also did not choose schools based on any exceptional needs. The whole point of the ADA is equal access. I let my child choose based on the same factors any other kid would use, such as size, location, academics, and âvibeâ and then we dealt with the accommodations issue after my child decided on where to go. At that point, you get a lot more of the real info.
In our experience, it took 6 weeks to get accommodations with SAT.
Neuropsyc. testing had to be within 3 years for colleges. I think you have documented deficits that would help get accommodations at college but so much easier with a 504 at high school.
We dealt with the mystery of our childâs slow reading (and inability to scan) for many years, and some mysteries are just never cleared up. She is a great writer, great speller and good with languages. She went to a liberal arts college and was very stressed by all the reading, came home, did community college, and is now in an adult learner program at a well-respected college, doing one or two classes at a time, and working.
She was diagnosed late in the game with ADHD. I always knew she had that but the schools didnât evaluate. The neuropsych. and two psychiatrists confirmed. Just go to your family doctor and ask for the questionnaire. I donât think an expensive neuropsych. can diagnose ADHD better than many others. Psychiatrists are good at this: and covered by insurance. ADHD is a brain-based disorder, not behavioral.
Every brain is different. My child developed sudden and unexpected mania at age 17, and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I resist neat labels but they are also helpful at time. I doubt her brain is similar to anyone elseâs with that diagnosis. We will never know if her reading problems are related to that.
She does get accommodations for ADHD a diagnosis based on a questionnaire but supported by 3 professionals. Other accommodations for bp. Lucikly these cover her slow processing.
At some point you will know you have done enough, and realize that some answers are elusive. For now, it would seem you need more expert advice tailored to giftedness perhaps. Once you feel the evaluations have really been sufficient, it becomes all about how to live with the deficits and appreciate the balancing strengths. Any approach should be âstrengths-based.â
Your child is doing well at school but struggling in a sort of secrecy at home. Having a counselor or coach who can describe what she goes through might be helpful. We found that outside activities such as dance, or yoga, helped a lot with academic stress.
I know a young woman who sounds like your child. Her parents were worried about her at college but the college has been very supportive and actually sought a diagnosis themselves. Because of her giftedness, schools, both private high school and college, have been very invested in her. She has thrived and just graduated with a cool job in France. I can PM you the school.
You are doing a great job!!! Your child is lucky to have you : )
Public schools are often not willing or able to provide accommodations for a kid who may have deficits in certain area and be gifted in others, but who performs well in schools. Is it a learning disability to be gifted in many ways but reading at an average speed? Or even to read slower than average but not slow enough for a kid with a typical IQ to be labeled as LD?
One of mine was tested and determined to have a couple of âmildâ learning differences which together made it more difficult for him in school, especially with his high IQ. The developmental pediatrician we saw indicated that his deficits were not enough that any school would offer accommodations. That may be the case for your dd. Certainly, going to a reading specialist may help her learn to scan/read faster which may serve her better than trying to get accommodations through the school. It also sounds like she is figuring out ways to solve this on her own, which is terrific - like finding the youtube lectures.
As compmom says at some point it becomes all about how to balance the strengths and deficits all kids have in their learning ability, even if their is a diagnosis but especially if there is not.
@kac425: thank you for directing me to that web siteâI definitely will take a look there for help!
@gwnorth: I agreeâI see now that the assessor I used did not have the expertise that I thought she had. I am kicking myself for not searching harder to locate such an expert.
@calmom: I LOVE your sonâs solutionâhe arranged his own modifications/accommodations! I am impressed at his maturity and resourcefulness! I will pass that idea on to my daughterâŠ
Thank you compmom for your post. It gave me a lot to think about for sure. I am not sure of DDâs scores in Verbal and Performance because she was given 12 different comprehensive tests and there are so many sub parts that relate to verbal and such that I am unsure which score is the score you have asked for. I have 20 pages of testing results and truthfully I have no idea what they mean as a wholeâŠI feel that the assessorâs analysis in the report is a bit weak. Do you know the actual name of the test to which you are referring because if so, I will look at that section of the report and post her scores. I do know that she was assessed for ADHD (my husband and I were given the questionnaires you mentioned) and there were no ADHD issues.
Compmom wrote:
"At some point you will know you have done enough, and realize that some answers are elusive. For now, it would seem you need more expert advice tailored to giftedness perhaps. Once you feel the evaluations have really been sufficient, it becomes all about how to live with the deficits and appreciate the balancing strengths. Any approach should be âstrengths-based.â
This really resonated with me and summed up exactly how I feel. Truthfully, I am less concerned about the official diagnosis (other than the fact that if I had a LD diagnosis, I could get access to Learning Ally and the like, which would be great). I am focused on trying to get more of an understanding of what my daughterâs issues are and then get some advice tailored to formulating a plan for her going forward. Right now, I do not understand exactly how to help her or exactly what type of help she needs.
We also need to make decisions on her course load for next year. She wants to take a full load of APâs, but of course we are concerned about the reading load, especially for APUSH and AP English. However, my daughter is concerned that if she does not take the full load of APâs, that she wonât be as desirable an applicant for college (she is concerned that her counselor wonât check off the âtook most rigorous course loadâ box). She wants to pursue engineering and we are seeking meritâplus she wants to try to AP-out of the English/History gen eds in college, if at all possible. So, she is wanting to take all APâs next yearâor at the very least, take Dual Credit in history or english and the rest APâs. I was hoping to have a better idea of what was going on with her by now, in order to make more informed decisions about course load.
@mom2and: I do not think that my daughterâs school will offer any support or help without a formal diagnosis and agree that they will look at her grades and think I am nuts for asking for help.
Compmom also said:
âYour child is doing well at school but struggling in a sort of secrecy at home.â
This is spot-on. She is struggling in secrecy! Thatâs what makes this all the more difficult.
I want to take a moment to thank all of those who have posted on this thread and who have PMâed me. You have no idea how much your support and advice has meant to me. You have shared your own personal stories of your amazing and wonderful children with me and offered me sage advice and guidance. I am so grateful for the guidance and commentary you all have proffered and I hope to some day be able to pay it forward to someone else.
Thatâs the problem â your daughterâs needs are very real, but her performance is so high that youâll come off as a pushy parent trying to give your daughter an unfair advantage over others. You would probably need a very specific diagnosis and recommendations to get any sort of accommodations.
There may be social issues to consider too. My son used to be embarrassed in high school because he was always the kid in the class setting the curve in his math class â in a way, it was a relief to him to sometimes lose points on a test due to a dyslexic mistake (misreading a question or transposing numbers during the process of answering) ⊠he wanted his friends to accept him as a normal person, not some sort of math superstar.
I donât think your daughter should take APâs solely to impress colleges. If she wants to major in engineering, she might be better off to focus on AP Calc and go with a lighter schedule for other APs â though a lot depends on the teacher. Also, itâs possible to take the AP exam without the course. Iâd encourage your daughter to talk to classmates about the reputations of the teachers.
I am going to PM you with some specific suggestions.
Regarding APs: you might want to look at the policies of some of the schools your D is looking at regarding AP credit. Some top schools donât let you opt out of their classes with APs, even with 5s. Just something to consider.
@PurplePlum Not sure if youâve mentioned already, was there a big discrepancy among the sub scores, e.g., the reading section the lowest? My middle school kid is going to take a test before summer and I want to pay attention to any hidden problems he might have as he doesnât read much but with no problems at school.
I agree that my daughter needs to carefully think about the APâs she wants to take. Next year, she is definitely taking AP CALC BC and AP Physics, which she is really looking forward to taking. Itâs just English and US history that she is mithering over. We are seeing her counselor this week to discuss this and my daughter is asking around to see what the AP ENG and US HIST classes are like. The unfortunate thing for my daughter is that we are new to this area and to this school and thus have no experience with the APâs offered at her school.
@eiholi: you know, her ACT sub scores were interesting. It still boggles my mind to this day, but she went into the ACT after having achieved perfect or near perfect scores on the math portion of practice tests and with not much confidence in the reading and science sections because her practice scores on those parts were not so great due to her reading issues. But would you believe that she did great on the reading and science sections and got like a 29 on the math section? It really ticked her off, since math is her thing. She says there were more matrix questions on the non-calculator part of the exam and she thinks she messed those up, since her teacher did not teach matrices much apparently. Honestly ,I was thrilled when she got a 30 because with her timing issues, I was not expecting her to do so well on the reading parts. Having said that, she did take an ACT review course and she focused on the reading sections and focused on the timing of the science section. She really did pretty stinky on the practice science questions because she always ran out of time. But she was lucky that the stars were aligned on the day of the actual test and she managed to finish the science section. She did not like the ACT and said she never wants to take one again. For a kid with reading issues and no time accommations, it was painful for her to take it.
The key to figuring out if a child is 2E lies with the subscores and their variations. There is a book that I used to consult every time I got a set of tests back. First, you need to get the complete breakdown of the scores and subscores and then make a chart. That helps to demonstrate where the issues are.
The example I use to illustrate 2E is my own D. When she was tested for the gifted K at age 4, she scored in the profoundly superior range on her verbal IQ, but over 40 points lower on the performance IQ portion. She still averaged out in the highly superior range but it was painfully obvious throughout her education that, to quote the report, ânumbers are not her friends.â It was a big issue because teachers just assumed she was lazy about math when in reality, she simply didnât get it, but was overall bright enough to get by. Frankly, I didnât care enough about her excelling in math to do anything but keep her in regular classes, with tutors as needed. OTOH, people were shocked to hear her recite the alphabet at 10 months old. Despite that, she was slow to learn to read and wasnât really a fluent reader until 3rd grade, though she is not dyslexic. She just had such a good memory that she could be read a book once and memorize it. I didnât realize that she couldnât read until I asked her to read a new book to one of her little brothers and she couldnât. She was 4 and in K.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, my two youngest sons are also 2E, with reading comprehension scores in the 99th percentile and processing speeds of 6 and 2%ile . Only my middle son is âjustâ smart, with all of his scores within the same general range.
The upside is that these kids are so bright that they are able to understand their issues and can help develop their own compensatory methods. For instance, we used music to teach D her times tables and other math. When she got older, I would sometimes set her history lessons to music. I encouraged her to have music in the background as she studied. Your D should be able to think about how she learns best. When my D got to college, where she studied what she enjoyed, she became an honors graduate. She even got a B+ in her college math class, but of course that was because she took it pass/fail to reduce stress.
Iâd just add that down the line it will be important to choose a college that is a good fit for her learning style ⊠and that may mean casting a wider net than the linear ranking from US News. For a prospective engineering major that means you might want to explore colleges known for innovative approaches â for example, consider Olin, which has a project-based approach. (In general, dyslexics do better with hands-on learning⊠but each person is different â my only point is that that some colleges may be a better fit than others, and you have to look beyond rankings and stats to figure that out.)
You may want to sign up for the Davidson gifted issues discussion forum, and post your Ds sub scores in the 2e thread. Ask for aeh to give their opinion.
@techmom99: Whatâs the performance IQ part? I have all of my kidâs sub scores and such and I donât see a sub score entitled "performanceâ. For example, on her WISC-V, I see Verbal Comprehension, Visual Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory and Processing Speed. Interesting to note that she got a 99th percentile in Verbal Comprehension and in Visual-Spatial and a 63% in Processing Speed, with a 25% in Symbol Search. Now, she also took 12 or so other tests, such as Standford Binet, Childrenâs Memory Scale, Woodcock Johnson, Wechsler, etc. I donât see a âPerformanceâ subsection on any of them. Though I did see a .9% in her VMI (Visual-Motor Integration), a 2% in Rapid Symbolic Naming, a less than 1% in Rapid Letter Naming, a 25% in Rapid Digit Naming, a 50% in Working Memory, a 50% in Delayed Recall, just to note a few of the low percentile scores from her multitude of test results. Can you PM me with the name of the reference book that you used to understand the scores? I love your suggestion of making a chart of her test resultsâI am going to do that today.
We are looking at different engineering schools for herâlike Olin and Rose-Hulman, in addition to the more typical ones. Once she takes the SAT and we see where she is at there, I definitely plan on posting a thread asking for help in college selection for her. If money were no object (and unfortunately it is), her top two choices would be Cal Tech and MIT. But sheâd need a whole lot of luck to get into those schools, in addition to a very rich uncle who agreed to fund her. But since there are no very rich uncles in our family, she is going to have to come up with other options, which she is doing. We have already visited Lehigh and RPI. She fell in love with Lehigh which was so funny considering that she stubbornly said she did not want to visit it because she said âshe did not like itâ and âwould never go thereâ. When I asked her how in the world she knew that she did not like Lehigh when she had not visited, nor researched it, she sheepishly confessed she did not like it because her older sister got in to Lehigh and decided that she did not like it. I should probably have posted that comment in the âStupidest Reasons Your Child Wonât Look at a Collegeâ thread. When she confessed to me that was her reason, I told her that was a crazy reason and to at least visit it, to which she agreed, and now Lehigh has shot to the top of her list. 
and tigerle, I definitely will look at the Davidson gifted issues forum!
We were given a percentage for the gap between verbal and performance. Maybe you could call or email the provider. We had a meeting after testing to go over testing, and I assume you had that. Our neuropsych. was available for months afterward via email too.
I would ask about the gap between verbal and performance and also about âscatterâ and what that means.
It is difficult for many, including public schools folks, to understand, that a kid with a high IQ has just as much right to function at her level of intelligence as a kid with a much lower IQ. A kid with a high IQ but a learning challenge that causes deficits in particular skills, may even face more of a painful challenge because of the wider gap between intelligence and functioning.
The ACT and SAT really illustrate the problem because your daughter does not have time to do some of the compensations she would do at home. Her score was fine, in the eyes of administrators, I am sure, but does not reflect her intelligence. Accommodations would enable her to get a score consistent with her intelligence, which is the point of ADA accommodations- level playing field.
Your daughter IS functioning at a high level, it would seem, but the folks at school donât know about the struggle. Ironically she would get more help if she did poorly. Her hard work should be rewarded not penalized: she is working way harder than others with her IQ!
I honestly think it might be productive to meet with a lawyer who specializes in special ed and 504 issues, and/or giftedness. You can spend on hour with a lawyer for $150 or whatever and get a whole lot of ideas for how to proceed. Alternatively, the Federal Education Dept, Office for Civil Rights can advise. In our state we have the Federation for Children with Special Needs, which provides free advice and even free advocates. But I would have a meeting with a lawyer. Then see whatever information on your daughterâs challenges that might be needed to follow the lawyerâs advice.
We did this and then I went back to the school, started the meeting with a joke, and then with a big smile said âI got some really helpful solutions that I think you will like.â Ha! It worked. I never had to pay another cent , but the guidance I got from a lawyer expert in these things, in just one meeting, was so invaluable.
ps My ex husband was gifted. When he had a stroke, his new cognitive deficits were obvious to me and others but since he scored in the ânormalâ range after a reduction in his abilities, no one cared about therapy for him. I think this is a good example of how the world works, unfortunately. I had to be a bit fierce to get him services and had to fight to get his disability too, for two years.
Wow @compmom: what a lot you must have gone through to get your ex husband the appropriate servicesâŠI canât even imagine. Thank you again for the info in your post. I agree that an ACT or SAT accommodation would help level the playing field for my daughter, but I am not confident that I will be able to get a firm diagnosis in a timely manner in order to get accommodations. My understanding is that the IQ type tests can only be administered once per year, so even if a 2E consultant re-interprets my DDâs current test results, itâs hard to imagine that he/she will give me a new diagnosis based on someone elseâs testing. I will ask these questions but I am worried that the 2E expert will want a new set of texts next fall, which would stink. But I am getting ahead of myself. I need to take things one step at a timeâŠ
The moral of my story is that I should have done more to have sought out a 2E expert, even if that meant taking DD out of state for testing. @Mom2aphysicsgeek was 100 right.
@PurplePlum - the parents referring to verbal vs. âperformanceâ are using terminology from an earlier edition of the test. Your daughter was tested with WISC-V, published in 2014. Iâm pretty sure that when I had my daughter tested in the 90âs, she was given a WISC-III. So there are changes in test structure and terminology with each new edition.
But my point is that for some kids, Olin or Rose-Hulman would be better choices than Cal Tech or MIT. Perceived prestige can sometimes be blinding, but for a kid with a divergent learning style, fit is really important.
I really donât know enough about these schools to make meaningful specific observations, but my point is that your daughter may end up in two years with a choice between a prestigious school where her academic experience will be a long miserable slog, vs. an alternative where she could explore and excel and take advantage of opportunities that wouldnât exist or wouldnât be open to her at the school that has the more impressive name on bumper sticker.
For example, as a California resident my son was easily accepted to Berkeley â but he knew all along that he wanted a small LAC, where there was an opportunity to personally interact with profs, and classes were built around interactive discussion rather than lectures. My son doesnât take in information very well in a lecture format, and note-taking isnât exactly his thing either. So he applied to a lot of LACâs that were far less prestigious than our flagship state U⊠and it was a difficult choice in the end, but the LACs offered something to him in terms of quality of education that Berkeley didnât. (My son didnât end up finishing at the LAC, but I donât think he was wrong about the LAC environment, though in hindsight he might have chosen the wrong LAC.)
So again, while I really donât know much about engineering programs, my point is simply â focus primarily on fit⊠Down the line she might be making a choice between colleges where she would need accommodations that she may or may not qualify for, vs. colleges where that would never become an issue because of of educational philosophy or flexibility of the curriculum.
Olin is extremely prestigious (and affordable). At least among those who know the field. We visited with my son and absolutely loved it.