Yes, I definitely agree that Olin and colleges like it, may well be excellent options for my daughter. It is on our list to visit at some point.
Fortunately, she would have no problem attending a college that is not one of the more well-known/top 10, or however you want to phrase it universities. Her main goal, as she puts it, is to be able to take hard science and math courses to challenge herself and also to have access to undergraduate research. I have a huge list of college possibilities for her (with schools all over the map in terms of ranking) that we will have to whittle down at some point after her standardized testing is done and we get a sense of what can be done about her reading fluency issues.
@compmom - I agree that Olin is extremely prestigious among those in-the-know, but it isn’t ranked on the general US News list… (though is included on a more obscure list of undergraduate engineering programs)-- while everyone has heard of MIT. So I think that parents and students still feel the same sort of pressure that my son felt when he wanted to attend an LAC over Berkeley… no matter how well regarded the school is on CC or among professionals, you still end up getting blank stares and ill-informed disdainful or questioning remarks among social peers. Some aspects of prestige are well-deserved, but there is also an aspect that just goes along with name recognition. And I do think that can create subtle pressure down the line that can be hard to resist.
Around here Olin is valued as much as MIT, though the end of free tuition may have affected desirability in recent years. Still, a project-based engineering education seems ideal for some. Not everyone makes decisions based on prestige, of course.
LOL…we still get the blank stares when anyone asks about my older daughter’s college and it is a well-regarded, top 40 USNWR ranked one. In fact, among my daughter’s high school peers, they seemed somewhat surprised that she chose this particular school over what were then our in-state options (truly, our in-state options were amazing). They were not impressed because they had never heard of her college. They were only familiar with our in-state options and the more recognized named colleges. The funniest thing though was that older DD was an Early Write Admit to Swarthmore (which came as a HUGE surprise and shock to her–talk about a reach) and absolutely not one of her peer group had any idea what Swarthmore was or how difficult it is to gain admittance there, let alone receive an Early Write letter. She got even more blank stares there. She said it was pretty funny. Now, Swarthmore was a hard school to say no to, but she followed the merit money and went with a school that she felt would be more suited to her major. Best decision she ever made and she has had no regrets.
@PurplePlum - You may have figured this out already, but as calmom suggested, performance IQ is an older term, but basically refers to her nonverbal abilities. In recent years the most widely used IQ test has broken down cognitive abilities into the following categories: verbal, nonverbal or performance or perceptual reasoning (which has now been broken down further), working memory and processing speed. I don’t think you should be too hard on yourself for not researching enough to find a “2E expert”. The 2E term seems to have been coined more by educators and there does not seem to be a lot of research on those kids specifically. Further, most neuropsychologists who have extensive experience evaluating children and diagnosing learning disabilities wouldn’t necessarily call themselves 2E experts, as that term hasn’t really been common within psychology. But it is true that those kids face difficulties that are not well understood or accepted by teachers and others. Even though there may be some specific help for your daughter and some schools willing to give her accommodations, the reality is that many children don’t fit neatly into certain diagnostic categories yet they may still be having difficulties. It does seem unlikely that your daughter has dyslexia given her high reading scores on ACT and other info you have given. It is important to know her strengths and weaknesses, choose classes based on those and then really work on strategies to compensate for her areas of weakness. It seems that others have given some good suggestions for this and working with professors and teachers to record lectures, have audio books and get and class notes that may already be available could be important. It also seems that if she decides to take APUSH next year, reading a good bit of it over the summer and finding audio materials or videos could help as well. It sounds like she has a lot of strengths which will serve her well in the future.
Not looking to hijack. I’m hoping this could inform OP as well…
D attends what most would describe as a a small, supportive LAC, I’m not sure how much this varies from school to school and expect the variation depends on the individual director as much as it does the size of the school. BUT. From your collective experience…are colleges at all willing to provide services to students who do not have diagnosed disabilities, but present with self-described issues? Specifically, D has come to realize that she probably has some form and level of dyslexia. She has accommodated and it really just manifests in random misinterpretations of multi-syllable words and (more importantly) the length of time and effort it takes her to get through reading academic text (i.e., with words she hasn’t memorized.) She is headed to the office at her school that helps students who have been diagnosed, but she has never had a neuropsych (or whatever) diagnosis. It seems a little late to pay $xK for that (especially since she doesn’t want accommodations, just resources.) Is there a way, in your experience, to frame her ask in order to get help?
When my D was tested in 4th grade her spelling and writing was at a first grade level while her reading was at a 12+
It was a profound discrepancy. A lot of therapy, mild voluntary accommodations given by her teachers (typing instead of writing, using a electronic spell checker in class, using graph paper to keep math homework tidy) has gotten us through, but the school district never admitted she had any disability. How could a 10 year old reading at a college level and taking pre-algebra have any problems?
Without a confirmed diagnosis and an IEP or at least a 504 from HS, it will be very difficult to get assistance from most colleges. As a parent, I would contact the schools that she is interested and anonymously inquire about the level of resources available. Most schools have tutoring services that are available to all students but accommodations, like extra time, are usually only available to those with documentation. My third son is dyslexic and has been on IEP since pre-school. He had to present proof to get services at community college.
ln most states it would be virtually impossible to get an IEP for a student with the OP’s daughter’s profile. A 504 plan or accommodations are very possible, but to qualify for an IEP (under IDEA) requires more than a diagnosis – it also requires a showing that the student is in need of special education services. A handful of states do require IEP’s for gifted students – there’s a chart on this web site that provides information: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/mandates.htm
@PNWedwonk - Hopefully others will have experience and be able to offer suggestions. But since you said she is not looking for accommodations, just resources, I definitely think she should meet with someone at the disability resource office at her college. I would think they would have some suggestions for things that have been helpful to other students. It is in the college’s best interest to be helpful to all their students even if they don’t have a diagnosis. I would also suggest talking with each professor where her weaknesses may impact her performance and see if they have any suggestions for tackling the material/reading. It might be good to schedule heavy reading-intensive courses for fall semesters so she can get a jump on reading in the summers.
I had no idea of the difference between a 504 plan and an IEP. I just googled it and the 504 plan has a broader definition of disability? How would a 504 benefit my daughter, do you think? Since I do not have a definitive diagnosis for her yet and may never have one–it would be great to understand what my other options are.
elena13 wrote:
“… the reality is that many children don’t fit neatly into certain diagnostic categories yet they may still be having difficulties…”
This exactly! @elena13 : I had a conversation with my daughter’s LD assessor recently who said the exact same thing. She said under the former diagnostic manual (DSM), there was a code for those who had non-specific LD’s not otherwise defined–kind of like a catch-all. She said the current DSM eliminated that, which she felt was unfortunate, since children like my DD who’s issues may not fit neatly into one specific diagnosis can’t get a diagnosis which would entitle them to services and accommodations.
What do you think I would accomplish asking for a 504? Based on what I’ve written about DD, do you think she would qualify for one?
It is difficult but not impossible to get an IEP for someone with that profile. The main problem that I see is that OP is starting so late.
It is possible to get IEP’s for gifted kids - all 4 of my sons had or have one. You have to be able to articulate what the issue is. For instance, my second son has an extremely high IQ but had chronic ear infections and 4 sets of tubes by age 4. This impacted both his speech and his ability to learn to read. I used that discrepancy to get his second classification after he no longer needed speech. In fifth grade, they wanted to declassify him but I pointed out that his reading level had gone up only one year since the triennial eval in 2nd grade and that his spelling had gone down, while his math was at upper hs+ level. He was given writing services.
I used similar arguments to retain IEPs for all of my boys.
My one regret is not seeking an IEP for my D, who is dyscalculic. She was so bright that she kept up, barely, and I honestly didn’t think math was important enough to go through the process for her about, especially since her performance didn’t really bother her - she didn’t like math and, as the eval report said, “numbers are not her friends.” I saw no point in trying to get services to help her progress further in a subject I didn’t deem worthwhile. It turned out ok and she actually earned a masters’ in special ed, inspired by our fights for her brothers.
Back to the OP - I reiterate that you need to check out the services available at each college your D is interested in and make choices accordingly. You need to see who services are available to, how they are provided and what is included with the college tuition and fees. My D chose to go to a slightly lower ranked SUNY where she was accepted into the honors program rather than a more rigorous school where she would have been just another smart kid with math issues. She granted magna cum laude. Of course, the fact that she listened to me and took her required math class pass/fail helped with that.
This was a very helpful thread. My S was diagnosed at age 4 with Dyspraxia (this is a motor planning disability) and received services until he was 10. Of course at that time he was dismissed from the IEP because it didn’t affect his school performance. He has pretty much sailed along in school by accommodating himself. When he started getting into upper level math, he began to struggle. Upper level Math has complicated steps that have to be planned out and this makes him slower at completing problems. He had been very resistant to a 504 up until this year with Math Analysis. It has become clear to him that he can’t finish his tests in the time allowed. He has always been one of the last students done to complete math tests or test with math in them (Physics & Chem). So now we are in the process of a 504 plan. He has had a health plan for a GI condition in place for 6 years, so that qualifies him for a 504 because he has a currently diagnosed disability. It’s crazy that we have to back door an accommodation for extra time on tests even though he was diagnosed and received services for the same school district. I’m just lucky our 504 coordinator is willing to do this because there is no way we could get him re-tested in time for the accommodations to help him. My advice to any one with a bright kid who is accommodating themselves, try and get a 504 plan in place before they get to High School and upper level classes. At some point they may no longer be able to accommodate themselves. 504 plans are self directed by the student, so they don’t have to use the accommodations in classes where they don’t need them. I’m sure the ACT will not accept his 504 for extra time, but we are only worried about extra time in class tests. We don’t want his GPA to drop and he already has good ACT score.
@PurplePlum – in a nutshell, a 504 plan comes under the Americans with Disabilities Act – the same law that requires public buildings to install wheelchair ramps – and is based on the idea that a person should not be denied access to educational services by virtue of their disabilities. So a person can get accommodations – such as extended time on tests, or the assistance of a reader on tests, or being provided with a special large print text handbook. The diagnosis by itself doesn’t get the accommodations – you have to show what is needed and why. The goal is essentially to level the playing field.
An IEP is under the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act, and is asking the school to provide specific educational services and modifications to meet your daughter’s needs. For example, when my daughter was in elementary school, she had a child with Down’s Syndrome in her class, and that child’s IEP provided an adult classroom aide to come to be in the classroom assisting that child throughout the school day. For a dyslexic child at the elementary level, an IEP would typically provide for time with a resource teacher or in a special ed classroom. The goal is to provide educational support to enable a child to keep up with “normal” kids. As noted above (with my link) only a few states would require that the IEP include educational resources to meet gifted education needs— the comments of @techmom99 don’t contradict what I’m saying – in her case she still had to identify problems where her children were behind grade level and needed assistance.
But you have a daughter who scores 30 on an ACT administered sophomore year, and is a straight A student. You have indicated that she hates reading and that it is a struggle for her to keep up with the reading - but that looks like a problem with reading speed because her test scores reflect a high level of competency. So what would you be asking for? I’ve PM’d you about things that can be done outside the school system for your daughter – but for an IEP, the issue is what will the school provide. Your goal as a parent is to help your daughter reach her maximum potential – but the schools aren’t obligated to provide that. They are required to provide a “fair and appropriate education” - and generally that means a goal bringing kids who are struggling up to grade level – which pretty much equates to average.
If you had a clearly bright kid who was not able to keep up in some areas - you might convince the schools to help her in the areas were she was falling behind. But you’ve got a kid who is excelling at pretty much all levels. The problem with asking for testing accommodations in her situation is that she’s already performing at the top end of the scale. (An ACT 30 is 95th percentile; average score is 20.) Your daughter is functioning at the far right end of the bell curve – and you know and I agree that she could do better – but the question is are the schools and testing agencies legally obligated to help her do better when she is already near the top end of the scale? And I’m saying that’s a hard sell. Philosophically that is a laudable goal – give her the means to be the best she possibly can be – but that was never the purpose behind the laws which provide assistance for people with disabilities.
One small note: It is very possible to have enormous problems with reading books and long passages, or with scanning, and still do well on reading evaluations with a neuropsych. and with standardized tests. This is because the passages in all these tests are short . My youngest does fine with these short passages in tests but doesn’t seem to be able to read or retain much from a book or even a chapter in a book. This has been true since childhood and is still true now. It is baffling and no one has figured it out. It may come down to an attention and focus issue for her.
Testing showed a large gap in the (outdated) performance versus verbal, slow processing speed, and significant “scatter”, meaning results were very uneven. The school never agreed to special ed for her. I would have fought harder but another child had a serious health issue, so I homeschooled the one with trouble reading for awhile. She had neither IEP nor 504 at school. Some teachers accommodated her anyway, without her asking. Our principal was very sympathetic to kids struggling despite best efforts, who did not get SPED. Many teachers blamed her for her difficulties, and that is where I drew a line!
She could have had a 504 for ADHD but we didn’t get a diagnosis for that until after high school (and bipolar 1). Once at college, we told the disabilities office about her slow processing etc. but accommodations were based on ADHD and bipolar. Without those two diagnoses, not sure she would have been accommodated.
She is clearly quite intelligent, aware, insightful and has many talents. I have tried to guide her toward environments, studies and activities that are based on her strengths, but once over a certain age it is up to her. Many kids prefer to avoid accommodations and now, somewhat to my chagrin and the chagrin of her advisor, she insists that accommodations rare cheating. The drive to be “normal” is very strong!
I don’t know what to say except good luck. The situation for a gifted person with some challenges like this is extremely difficult, as much for the parent as the kid. I am wondering if a meeting with an educational lawyer would help guide the next step, and guide interactions with the neuro-psych., who might be able to write up parts of the report as finding something! I have no idea. I just know that a meeting with a lawyer was extremely helpful to us and in the end saved some money.
@PurplePlum - Yes, I’m not sure that the time spent trying to get a 504 plan would be worth it. It would be important to think about what you would be asking from the school. What do you want the school or teachers to provide and would they do so without a plan, just by asking? In addition to the other things that have been suggested to help her be less frustrated with her reading, it might be worth to look into a speed reading class in the summer. I’m not sure if that would help or not.
If you are looking for extra time on the ACT, I agree with calmom that it would be difficult to achieve. Since she performed well on reading and science, it seems like with practice on the timing part of the math, those scores will surely go up as that is her area of strength. There are many colleges that super score the ACT so even if her reading and science don’t go up, she will be able to raise her super score.
There are so many kids who have interesting patterns of strengths and weaknesses. Some have learning disabilities, and some don’t. Even when kids are frustrated with a particular area of achievement, it does not necessarily mean they have a diagnosis. Even if they don’t qualify for special education services, they often need tutoring or other things that help them compensate for their weaknesses. I agree with checking into what is offered at each of the colleges to which she is interested in applying. That being said, I might ask the psychologist a little more about the scores on tests of processing speed. They do seem particularly low and I would want more clarification about how those scores compare with her overall cognitive abilities. I can’t remember if attention problems were suspected.
OP’s daughter also did well on the math. Not as well as she wanted, but well enough. OP wrote, “she did great on the reading and science sections and got like a 29 on the math section” – 29 for ACT math is 93rd percentile. And this was a 10th grade, September sitting for the test. From the point of view of the school – OP’s daughter did extremely well on the ACT. Most kids – and most parents – would be delighted with those scores. (I understand that CC parents think anything less than a 34 is terrible … but that just isn’t the way the rest of the world sees it.)
@calmom is absolutely correct. I am in NY, which does not mandate sped based on giftedness, so I had to really look hard with the scores, of particularly my middle son, to get IEPs. My sons’ IEPs were not based on being gifted but their giftedness was an aspect that I used to compare and contrast their test scores and their actual performances when coming up with their diagnoses.
By the way, only an IEP has the force of law, which is why schools will generally offer you a 504 first. If your child only qualifies for a 504, it’s better than nothing, but I always made every effort to find a way to get the IEP.