Edward Fiske Reveals His "Budget Ivy League" List

<p>@[kjofkw](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/members/kjofkw-14967.html]kjofkw[/url]:”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/members/kjofkw-14967.html):</a> strong, [logos-based[/url</a>] argument to balance out the plethora of [url=<a href=“http://www.public.asu.edu/~macalla/logosethospathos.html]ethos/pathos-laden[/url”>http://www.public.asu.edu/~macalla/logosethospathos.html]ethos/pathos-laden[/url</a>] arguments.</p>

<p>FWIW, The New York Times takes notice of the Fiske recommendations: [url=<a href=“Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times”>Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times]Rummaging</a> the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education](<a href=“http://www.public.asu.edu/~macalla/logosethospathos.html]logos-based[/url”>http://www.public.asu.edu/~macalla/logosethospathos.html):</p>

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<p>To reinforce the quality of the Miami’s Architecture Department [referenced</a> above](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html]referenced”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html), here’s a sampling of the credentials for some of the [department’s</a> faculty](<a href=“College of Creative Arts | Miami University”>College of Creative Arts | Miami University):
[ul][<em>] Ph.D. University of Michigan
[</em>] M. Arch. University of Pennsylvania, School of Fine Arts
[<em>] M. Arch Cornell University
[</em>] M.S.Arch. University of Cincinnati
[<em>] M. Arch University of Texas, Arlington
[</em>] M. Arch. University of Virginia
[<em>] Ph.D. Princeton University
[</em>] M. Arch. University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
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<p>The school’s ‘beauty’ is also more than skin-deep. Miami has invested [over</a> $100 million in its rennovation projects](<a href=“http://www.miamistudent.net/2.8198/campus-construction-contributes-to-recruitment-strategy-1.1153674]over”>http://www.miamistudent.net/2.8198/campus-construction-contributes-to-recruitment-strategy-1.1153674) with many new state-of-the-art facilities that factor into [faculty</a> talent recruitment efforts](<a href=“http://humanfocused.com/miamiupsychportfolio/miamiupsych.html]faculty”>http://humanfocused.com/miamiupsychportfolio/miamiupsych.html).</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone is saying that Miami of Ohio is not a fine university. I think some question how its tuition (12k+ in state; 27K oos) could be construed as anything approaching a bargain among public universities, much less making a list of the top 10 such schools in the country.</p>

<p>Given that Fiske has historically put Miami on something of a pedestal, it’s fair game to see this mention as part of his personal agenda rather than any objective evaluation of Miami’s worthiness as a top ten bargain school in the country./</p>

<p>There are many fine state universities. I happen to like Western Kentucky for many students (and it has better sports than Miami). I just don’t fall at the altar of Miami-worship. It has some strong faculty and strong departments. So does the University of Tennessee and, to an even greater extent, other Big Ten and SEC schools. There are very bright students that choose to attend Miami. There are very bright students who choose to attend Temple. The fact is that these are not highly-selective schools and the average student is…quite average.</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065651306-post102.html]#102[/url]”>quote</a> …I don’t think anyone is saying that Miami of Ohio is not a fine university. I think some question how its tuition (12k+ in state; 27K oos) could be construed as anything approaching a bargain among public universities, much less making a list of the top 10 such schools in the country

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<p>There’s an old adage that goes something like: ‘One can know the price of everything and the value of nothing’.</p>

<p>[Fiske’s</a> assessment](<a href=“Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times”>Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times):</p>

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<p>What evidence might there be to support the “elite private university” assertion? </p>

<p>Here’s a data point on Miami’s undergraduate-focused ethos for those that rank schools in lists; note the relative rank (#2 tied with Princeton) and ‘elite’ privates Miami shares the list with (Dartmouth, Princeton, Notre Dame, Brown, Standford and Yale) : </p>

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<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2010/08/17/methodology-best-undergraduate-teaching.html]USNWR”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2010/08/17/methodology-best-undergraduate-teaching.html]USNWR</a> Methodology](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]USNWR”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank):</p>

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<p>Follow-up to [#104](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html]#104[/url]:”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html):</a></p>

<p>Miami University is very well thought of by employers as well: Payscale.com [Top</a> Midwestern Colleges in the US By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/midwestern-colleges.asp]Top”>Payscale Best Schools by Salary Potential). </p>

<p>Miami ranks 13th in the Midwest and very close to top privates like Notre Dame, University of Chicago, Case Western, Kenyon, Northwestern, Washington University in St. Louis and Denison…reinforcing the point of getting a top quality private-school-like education at a public school price.</p>

<p>Miami also does well when compared across the nation: [Top</a> US Colleges — Graduate Salary Statistics](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp]Top”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp)…be sure to keep in mind regional differences in cost-of-living-adjustments employers make provisions for. Example: Miami, a Midwestern school, is ranked ahead of tony privates NYU and BU.</p>

<p>Who is Miami paying off? It’s an OK school. It has some excellent faculty. Most places do.</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065713598-post106.html]#106[/url]”>quote</a> Who is Miami paying off? It’s an OK school. It has some excellent faculty. Most places do.

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<p>For this [snarky[/url</a>] assertion to be accurate, Miami must be illicitly “paying off” the following:</p>

<p>[ul][li][url=<a href=“Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times”>Searching the Bargain Bin for a Premier Public Education - The New York Times]Edward</a> Fiske, a former education writer and editor at The New York Times](<a href=“http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snarky]snarky[/url”>SNARKY Definition & Usage Examples | Dictionary.com)[/li][li][US</a> News and World Report Best Undergraduate Teaching Survey](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]US”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank)[/li][li][Kiplinger</a> 100 Best Values in Public Colleges](<a href=“Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts”>Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts)[/li][li][The</a> Center for College Affordability & Productivity (CCAP)/Forbes.com](<a href=“http://www.miami.muohio.edu/news/article/view/6433]The”>http://www.miami.muohio.edu/news/article/view/6433)[/li][li][Businessweek[/url</a>][/li][li][url=<a href=“http://www.architectmagazine.com/education/distinctive-specialties.aspx]Architecture”>http://www.architectmagazine.com/education/distinctive-specialties.aspx]Architecture</a> Magazine](<a href=“http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0410_bschool_special_undergrad/19.htm]Businessweek[/url”>http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0410_bschool_special_undergrad/19.htm)[/li][li][And</a> many more…](<a href=“http://www.miami.muohio.edu/about-miami/recognition/index.html]And”>http://www.miami.muohio.edu/about-miami/recognition/index.html)[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>Many prospective students researching colleges use these forums to supplement their reseach of potential colleges.</p>

<p>[LennyPepperidge’s</a> assertion](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065641623-post88.html]LennyPepperidge’s”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065641623-post88.html)…

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<p>…is representative of the old adage “A rumor may not have a leg to stand on will still get around the world quicker than the truth!”. </p>

<p>It deserves to be challenged with facts in keeping with [critical](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html]critical[/url]-[url=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650844-post101.html]thinking[/url]/[url=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html]analysis[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html)-thinking/[url=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html]analysis[/url</a>] to inform impressionable high-school students.</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html]Copious[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650474-post100.html]Copious[/url</a>] [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650844-post101.html]evidence[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065650844-post101.html]evidence[/url</a>] has been provided here to reinforce Fiske’s evaluation of Miami University as a top-value in higher-ed. The school’s detractors offer [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065641623-post88.html]pabulum[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065641623-post88.html]pabulum[/url</a>].</p>

<p>Miami is expensive as well, so not sure what is going on there. It isn’t “budget” or “elite.”</p>

<p>Hey, if anyone wants to choose Miami of Ohio over the more selective and higher ranked–yet significantly less expensive–flagship public in the same state, more power to them.</p>

<p>Just don’t pretend that the place is either a “budget” or “elite.”</p>

<p>^^ What he said.</p>

<p>Payscale data is crap. Miami U does publish real data for the B school and the numbers are pretty average. Most B10 schools are higher to much higher.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.fsb.muohio.edu/fsb/content/about/class-profile/2009-class-profile.pdf[/url]”>http://www.fsb.muohio.edu/fsb/content/about/class-profile/2009-class-profile.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Back to Iowa for a sec. It really does have a very well-known and well-thought-of creative writing program. If you are interested in creative writing, that’s a reason to go there. But there are plenty of reasons not to go there, too, even if you are interested in creative writing. First, what if you change your mind about your major? What if you don’t like the location? What if your top priority is a highly competitive student body?</p>

<p>I think there are plenty of good reasons to go to highly selective schools (including but not limited to the Ivies), and lots of people choose to do so. There are good reasons to go other places, too. I do think that some people make decisions for unreasonable reasons, of course.</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065720952-post108.html]#108[/url]”>quote</a> Miami is expensive as well, so not sure what is going on there. It isn’t “budget” or “elite.”

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<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065721369-post109.html]#109[/url]”>quote</a> Hey, if anyone wants to choose Miami of Ohio over the more selective and higher ranked–yet significantly less expensive–flagship public in the same state, more power to them.</p>

<p>Just don’t pretend that the place is either a “budget” or “elite.”

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<p>See: [**Private[/b</a>] university experience at public university price = bargain](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html][b][size=3]Private[/size][/b”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065656147-post104.html)</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065721519-post111.html]#111[/url]”>quote</a> Payscale data is crap…

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<p>[PayScale</a> Methodology](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/resources_methodology]PayScale”>http://www.payscale.com/resources_methodology):</p>

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<p>For in-state students, Berkeley, LA, Michigan, and Virginia are more cost-effective than Ivies.</p>

<p>William and Mary, UCSD, Wisconsin, and UNC (and maybe a few more I forgot) are as good a deal as an ivy if you’re in-state.</p>

<p>I suggest going to Payscale and adding a fake post. It is VERY easy. Done a few myself. The only reliable data is U published surveys of actual alumni.</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065724657-post115.html]#115[/url]”>quote</a> I suggest going to Payscale and adding a fake post. It is VERY easy. Done a few myself. The only reliable data is U published surveys of actual alumni.

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<p>Caveat lector.</p>

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<p>This is not at all correct. It completely depends on what need-based aid you get and the Ivy schools have become quite generous.</p>

<p>I have stated this so many times. It is simply a fact. If you are a smart, affluent, but not super rich kid from a good midwestern suburban high school, Miami is a great place. They get a lot of white affluent kids because those kids - the ones who were good, but not 4.5 GPA students - who get a very good education on a very beautiful and not too big campus. IU, Purdue and OSU ARE great schools and very affordable. They are also huge. That is not for everyone. If you are a smart minority kid with the kind of grades that Miami kids generally have (3.5 - 4.0), you are offered opportunities at the elites. Without any hooks, if you have a 3.7 or better with strong test scores, you get 10k in automatic scholarships OOS at Miami. With a tuition that starts at 37, a 10k scholarship makes Miami VERY affordable. So why do you THINK so many strong students who are not URMs choose Miami? It’s a great school at an affordable price, if you are a solid but not “hooked” student. The Ivies are not affordable for upper middle class white midwestern kids. Our local Blue Ribbon High School with a graduating class of about 900 sends 3-5 kids each year to elite schools…occasionally on athletic scholarships…most of them are Asian and have parents who have made their life goal to save enough for the 200k price tag…for only children. For the rest of us, we’re very very happy to have a school like Miami, affordable for our strong students. And if you look at the stats of their Honors programs, the admissions rates to professional schools are impressive. Some of us are also not wanting to send undergrad students too many hours from home to be able to come home for the weekend when they want to. Go RedHawks. My son very much hopes to get in and study business in the Honors College. Now he needs to learn to play broomball.</p>

<p>I can’t help but chuckle at somebody asserting that Miami has “strong students.”</p>

<p>from Princeton_Review for Miami Ohio</p>

<p>Reading middle 50% SAT = 530-630
Math middle 50% SAT = 560-660</p>