Expelled from High School? Do I have a chance at Penn/Yale?

Chance Me / Match Me
1

Hey guys! I’m a current Senior & have a very unique situation for two reasons:

  • I had a severe long-lasting concussion my Sophomore year that caused my grades to drop to about 3.3 UW (Both semester)
  • During the summer of 2017, after completing my Junior Year, I was dismissed/expelled from my private Catholic High
    School. (For trespassing after hours on the school’s athletic facility, I wasn’t dismissed for anything super dangerous/super bad)

It has always been & continues to be my dream to attend Penn & I have been planning on applying ED since my sophomore year though lately I have been strongly drawn to Yale as well… With my recent expulsion & lowish GPA however I am worried about my chances of admission at both schools & thought I would come to here for some opinions on admission chances. Does anyone think I have a chance at Penn or Yale ED/SCEA? I would really like to apply to one of the two & just want to make the best educated decision that gives me the highest chance at admission. Thank you for taking the time, my stats are posted below.
All my extracurriculars have been continued & maintained at my new High School unless otherwise noted

SAT I Superscore: 1580 (780R/800M)
SAT I Single-Sitting: 1560 (780/780)
SAT II: N/A
UW GPA: 3.695 [3.9+ If you exclude my sophomore year {Sophomore Year Alone: ~3.3} in which I would suffered from a severe medically diagnosed concussion which made school extremely difficult for a period of time. Sophomore year semesters are the only period dragging my GPA down).
GPA Weighted: 4.267
Class Rank: N/A
Awards: National Merit Semifinalist, AP Scholar w/ Honor
Curriculum: 100% Most Rigorous available at my school, 6 Years of Chinese Study

of APs Taken: 12 (Remainder are all Honors Classes where AP is unavailable)

Extracurriculars:
Viola - (10 Years, City-Wide Advanced Philharmonic Symphony, 3 Years Section Leader, Founder of Only Stringed Ensemble/Orchestra at School)
Tennis - (10 Years [4 Years School Team] 3 Years Varsity Singles, 2x State-Qualifier, Previously Ranked USTA Player, Several Local Tournament Championships/Placements, Team Top 3 in State)
Musical Theatre - (7 Years, Summer Camps, Civic Theatre Acting/Musical Theatre Classes, Actor/Crew-member/Volunteer in both Community & School Shows, Multiple leading roles in School Productions)
Math Team - (11, 12; Team Captain, State Math Competitions, 2nd Place Individual Event, Team 1st Place Overall)
Model UN - (10, 11, 12; Outstanding Delegate Award, Member of Model UN Leadership Team)
School’s Stringed Ensemble (11 only) - (Leading Violist, Founder/President) cut short by dismissal
Varsity Choir/Vocal Performance - (12, Previously only Did Musical Theatre but a newly discovered passion, Bass In School’s Advanced Exclusive Audition-Only Madrigals Group)
Dance - (11, 12; Started both Jazz & Formal Ballet training very late and was able to reach Intermediate level of study after only a few months of study. Most of peers have been studying ballet for 3-6 years)
Quiz Bowl - (11, 12; Co-Captain, State-Qualifying Team)
Chinese Club - (9, 10, 11) cut short by dismissal

Essay(s): 8-10/10 I have pretty good writing skills
Why Penn: Probably like an 8/10
Teach Recs: Coming from new teachers at my new school so hard to say
Counselor Recommendation: ^^

Gender: Male
State: MI
Race: White
Income: 150-200k
School Type: Private Catholic (9-11), Rigorous/Highly-Ranked Public (12)
Hooks: (LGBT?)

2

I am not experienced enough to offer any meaningful chance predictions. Even with a perfect record, such predictions can be meaningless. That being said, be sure to cast a wide net. I’ve read other threads regarding expulsions and results can be very unpredictable. You are clearly very accomplished and your expulsion is a hurdle to get over. Your undergrad experience may take a detour but this should does not have to impact your grad school or professional development. Good luck!

3

Do the counselors at your new school know about the expultion? I wonder if it will affect you going from NMSF to NMF

4

@RGEJam You’re asking some of the most highly selective schools in the country to understand/overlook four issues: expulsion, recommendations from teachers who barely know you and will have taught you for only a few months at most, a recommendation from a GC who can’t really say much about you at this point, and low GPA sophomore year. Generally, early applicants are more highly qualified than RD applicants. Given these issues, I don’t think you have a great shot at any of the most highly selective schools during the early round, and if you are really set on going to the most highly selective schools, you might be better served by taking a gap year and applying after having demonstrated excellence at your new HS and with enthusiastic recommendations from teachers and a GC who can actually speak to your talents with some degree of knowledge and conviction.

With that being said, applying ED at Penn is reputed to give a boost, applying EA to Yale does not.

5

@3scoutsmom Yes the counselors & teachers know about my expulsion. I think it may affect my ability to gain NMF status however I don’t recall seeing a question about discipline on the application… (though I wouldn’t be surprised if I just missed it, the online form is kinda clunky & setup weird)

6

Pretty sure it’s a question on the counselor’s rec. You might look some of the schools that will still give scholarships to NMSF for safety schools.

7

Can you get a recommendation from anyone at your previous school who can speak towards your academic/ec achievement and also perhaps lessen the blow of your expulsion? E.g., “so-and-so was an amazing student and I disagree with the administration’s decision to expel him for what I consider a harmless infraction”

No matter what, it’s going to be a red flag that you’ll have to fess up to in your application, but I think it’s worth applying to your dream schools.

8

bump

9

Your highest chance of admission will be Penn ED. As for the rest of the story, no one here could possibly know what an AO will think about your situation.

10

I’m not an admissions officer or expert, so will not offer any advice on your chances of admission. As someone with extensive experience in the corporate world, I’d caution you about the idea that it’s acceptable to lie or omit because a college or employer is unlikely to discover the truth. If the application asks if you have been subject to Disciplinary Action and you answer “no”, that is a lie. Is it possible you’d get away with it because the two schools won’t directly report the truth? Yes, it’s possible. But if whatever college/uni you’re admitted to eventually discovers that lie, they would be well within their rights to either revoke the admission or expel you. Similarly, if you lie or omit on a resume, an employer is likely to terminate your employment when the lie is discovered.

The point is that you shouldn’t assume you can lie or omit something like expulsion on an application simply because you’re unlikely to be discovered. Not only is it unethical, but if/when you get caught, the consequences will be severe.

11

I agree that there’s an inherent problem with your thinking here. You didn’t simply get disciplined (for something you think is minor.) You got expelled.

Adcoms know some hs have unusually strict discipline, even a one-strike rule. They can distinguish between dumb one-time choices and things that hint a kid has judgment issues. Your post suggests you don’t “get it.”

Sorry to be blunt, but had you explained this differently, you might have gotten more understanding from adults here. Instead, it seems your focus is on getting what you want, your hope this situation will just go away.

Even the notion of “a phenomenal ‘apology essay’” seems to miss the right sort of thinking.

12
  1. Look at the CA question. It's pretty encompassing. So, regardless of whether your prior school reports or not, the honest answer to the question, is that you have been subject to a disciplinary proceeding. As @milee30 said, if you lie on your application, you can always be kicked out (or even your degree revoked!), in the highly unlikely event that this is discovered. Do you really want this hanging over your head the rest of your life? Seems like this would turn a stupid 17 year old prank into a much bigger issue.
  2. Show character. Be honest, even though it has the potential to hurt you. In life, you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be happy with who you are.
  3. I could be wrong, but I think disclosing will actually help you. The schools you are applying to are reaches for everyone (less than 5 percent admissions). If you disclose, you will stand out. The question is will you stand out in a good way, or a bad way?

First, I’ll see that you disclosed but the school didn’t, so I’ll either think you’re honorable or uninformed about your school’s policy. So, in my disclosure I’d be tempted to state that even though it’s not disclosed by the school, the honest answer is yes.

Second, you are young. People make mistakes! No one wants to see this ruin a smart, dedicated student.

Third, schools want kids with honor and integrity. They also want kids who learn from their mistakes and find a path going forward. So, not only would I answer yes, I’d own it and write about what I did, how that impacted me, my family, others around me, what lessons I’ve learned from it, and what I’ve had to overcome as a result of my actions. How have you integrated into your new school senior year, and what are you involved with in that new school to show that you’ve bounced back and are moving forward.

Good luck!

13

Recently I posted a thread titled “Expelled from High School? Do I have a Chance at Penn/Yale” but I have recently discovered that both my current AND previous school have board policies to not disclose any disciplinary action to colleges students apply to. Essentially this means that I can answer “NO” on the Disciplinary History section of application… Initially, I was extremely worried about my expulsion affecting my chances at Penn or Yale but this new policy discovery seems to be a blessing in disguise. Should I disclose my previous expulsion and try to makeup for it with a great essay? Or should I just leave the incident behind me. I feel that even with a phenomenal “apology essay” that I may have a greater chance at admission with the expulsion left in the dark. I’ve attached the previous thread including my states/story below and would love to hear some opinions from the CollegeConfidential community. Thanks in advance!!

Hey guys! I’m a current Senior & have a very unique situation for two reasons:

  • I had a severe long-lasting concussion my Sophomore year that caused my grades to drop to about 3.3 UW (Both semester)
  • During the summer of 2017, after completing my Junior Year, I was dismissed/expelled from my private Catholic High
    School. (For trespassing after hours on the school’s athletic facility, I wasn’t dismissed for anything super dangerous/super bad)

It has always been & continues to be my dream to attend Penn & I have been planning on applying ED since my sophomore year though lately I have been strongly drawn to Yale as well… With my recent expulsion & lowish GPA however I am worried about my chances of admission at both schools & thought I would come to here for some opinions on admission chances. Does anyone think I have a chance at Penn or Yale ED/SCEA? I would really like to apply to one of the two & just want to make the best educated decision that gives me the highest chance at admission. Thank you for taking the time, my stats are posted below.
All my extracurriculars have been continued & maintained at my new High School unless otherwise noted

SAT I Superscore: 1580 (780R/800M)
SAT I Single-Sitting: 1560 (780/780)
SAT II: N/A
UW GPA: 3.695 [3.9+ If you exclude my sophomore year {Sophomore Year Alone: ~3.3} in which I suffered from a severe medically diagnosed concussion which made school extremely difficult for a period of time. Sophomore year semesters are the only period dragging my GPA down).
GPA Weighted: 4.267
Class Rank: N/A
Awards: National Merit Semifinalist, AP Scholar w/ Honor
Curriculum: 100% Most Rigorous available at my school, 6 Years of Chinese Study

of APs Taken: 12 (Remainder are all Honors Classes where AP is unavailable)

Extracurriculars:
Viola - (10 Years, City-Wide Advanced Philharmonic Symphony, 3 Years Section Leader, Founder of Only Stringed Ensemble/Orchestra at School)
Tennis - (10 Years [4 Years School Team] 3 Years Varsity Singles, 2x State-Qualifier, Previously Ranked USTA Player, Several Local Tournament Championships/Placements, Team Top 3 in State)
Musical Theatre - (7 Years, Summer Camps, Civic Theatre Acting/Musical Theatre Classes, Actor/Crew-member/Volunteer in both Community & School Shows, Multiple leading roles in School Productions)
Math Team - (11, 12; Team Captain, State Math Competitions, 2nd Place Individual Event, Team 1st Place Overall)
Model UN - (10, 11, 12; Outstanding Delegate Award, Member of Model UN Leadership Team)
School’s Stringed Ensemble (11 only) - (Leading Violist, Founder/President) cut short by dismissal
Varsity Choir/Vocal Performance - (12, Previously only Did Musical Theatre but a newly discovered passion, Bass In School’s Advanced Exclusive Audition-Only Madrigals Group)
Dance - (11, 12; Started both Jazz & Formal Ballet training very late and was able to reach Intermediate level of study after only a few months of study. Most of peers have been studying ballet for 3-6 years)
Quiz Bowl - (11, 12; Co-Captain, State-Qualifying Team)
Chinese Club - (9, 10, 11) cut short by dismissal

Essay(s): 8-10/10 I have pretty good writing skills
Why Penn: Probably like an 8/10
Teach Recs: 8/10 Coming from two teachers at my previous school
Counselor Recommendation: 9-10/10 Coming from old counselor, I was very close with her

Gender: Male
State: MI
Race: White
Income: 150-200k
School Type: Private Catholic (9-11), Rigorous/Highly-Ranked Public (12)
Hooks: (LGBT?)

14

I agree with the posters above - you cannot truthfully say you have not been subject to a disciplinary proceeding. If it comes out that you were not truthful on your application, you could be tossed from whatever great Ivy admits you – at any time.

I also think it’s naive to think that at least some admission offices wouldn’t check with your previous school (even/especially in an off-the record conversation) or that word wouldn’t get to them somehow that you were dismissed from your previous school. People talk amongst themselves.

And since I’ve been thinking about it, I have a hard time believing that the trespassing that led to your dismissal was as innocent as you’ve described it. I can’t think of a scenario that doesn’t include some sort of criminal mischief involved, if it led to expulsion. Just going into the building to retrieve the gym shoes you left wouldn’t rise to the level of expulsion. I’m a parent and it just doesn’t pass the sniff test.

Just my $.02.

15

I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but it will be an uphill battle. These choice schools are hard to get into when everything is going your way, and you don’t even have that.

Stay at it. Keep calm and carry on. Try to get people to say nice things about you and put your best foot forward. The good news is if you don’t get into Yale or Penn, there are plenty of fantastic colleges out there, and where you go to college is not necessarily an indicator of future success.

16

@GnocchiB I know. That’s exactly the reason why I don’t want to disclose the expulsion, because the school’s ruling was FAR out of line. In fact, I didn’t even ENTER the facility’s building I merely visited the outside of the complex after hours. Many of my friends, family, sympatheziers, etc. believe the situation was used as an excuse to expel a student who was known by the catholic anti-LGBT administration to be gay however I didn’t even dare bring that up in fear of sounding like I had a lack of remorse for the decision I made. Interpret my words how you would like I guess you’re going to have to just choose to believe me. I wouldn’t come on this forum and ask for opinions regarding a fabricated lie of a situation.

Just my $0.02

17

It definitely puts you in an unfair situation if you were the victim of a “fabricated lie of a situation” and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with that.

But do you want to then turn around and do the same unethical thing? Failing to answer the app truthfully means you’re the one fabricating a lie. Don’t let their bad behavior create the same bad behavior in you. Rise above.

Again, I’m not an AO, but if I were to read an application which simply stated the fact that you were expelled under a one-strike policy for visiting the facility building after hours I wouldn’t immediately put that app in the discard pile. I’d want to find out more, and when I got the documents that showed exactly what you said and that you had no other disciplinary issues, then I’d consider it a nonissue. If, on the other hand, I read an app where the applicant tried to explain away an expulsion as a religious vendetta, I’d already be a little suspicious that this was a person that was unable to learn from past mistakes or who might struggle with accurate self-assessment (I’m not saying this is the case with you, just telling you what the explanation sounds like to a stranger). Combine that red flag with the poor grades at that school and there would probably be enough question in my mind to not want to consider that applicant further.

18

Strictly speaking, sometimes private schools use the suspension strategy as a way to ensure you’ll be 100% good for the rest of your school career, then they purge it and consider it didn’t happen because it was used as a stick. Expulsion is another matter. You’d be better off explaining the situation as neutrally as possible and ask your GC to develop, taking your side (no “it was not fair!” In your explanation) and check with your GC for what THEY and the school want you to do.

19

Realistically, you have two things that move Penn and Yale from reach-for-everyone to unrealistic reach:

  1. Your GPA. 3.695 makes it difficult to compete for admission to schools that have more 4.0 applicants than they can admit.
  2. A significant "defect" in the expulsion. Even if not explicitly disclosed (which would put you at risk of rescission of admission or completed degree later if found out), a college admissions reader may wonder about why you changed schools for no apparent reason.
20

You sound like an amazing young man, so sorry for the school problem. I am not an admissions rep but I raised my niece who went to Penn (03’) so this is my take.

Your GPA is going to get you hung up in the admissions process. It is a shame but what tends to happen to my experience is that you have to fit certain criteria before you get to “tell your story” and both Yale and Penn are HIGHLY competitive with MANY applicants so in my opinion your GPA is may stop you from getting to the part where they read more about you. I know, I know - there is supposed to be this “holistic” magic that goes on in college apps but I have done this a few times now and I can tell you when I have spoken to the school reps it becomes very clear that processing 40,000 applications for only thousands of available spots does not physically allow them to read EVERY application. There is and always will be a process of elimination at busier schools or they could never admit anyone… Which is a shame because you have such an amazing resume but I wouldn’t get too stuck on it as you are a great match for MANY top rated schools and very lucky.

Penn and Yale may sound good to you but broaden your horizons. Maybe you are meant to study in France or a program at another school in the US. Never get stuck on a school - there are ALWAYS better choices no matter what you think right now. I promise you, you can read this again in 5 years and come tell me I was right.

From a legal stand point, just to protect against anyone speaking about your expulsion. My recommendation is this;

1.Do not lie about the situation but let me get some clarity on it - did you get officially expelled? what does your paperwork say? in private schools you will often find a disciplinary reprimand and a bunch of conversation about expelling the student but when you check the school district records you see that the school actually listed it as a transfer. Do not assume anything and go throwing yourself under the bus. Check the school district records. Read the written policy on disclosure carefully and know what you are dealing with. Notice I said READ it - do not take someone’s word for it, don’t do this or that because someone’s brother/cousin/friend did. READ it. If you cannot decipher it go to an attorney - if you can’t afford an atty try free legal aid in your town.

If you think your school(s) may disclose the expulsion or you have any problem with it:
2. Get your original paperwork from your injury and get diagnosed with a TBI - traumatic brain injury. If you had a concussion, you had a type of TBI that is not a lie. You can go to a psychiatrist or psychologist and talk to them a few times about the situation (and how you are so stressed out about it now) and get a diagnosis of the past injury in writting. TBI’s affect your reasoning and decision making skills for a period after the injury and light TBI’s are perfectly recoverable so people return to their normal lives eventually.

My legal take this would be that you had a TBI, you were obviously dealing with focus and concentration issues by your grades; while you did not damage, harm nor did you have the intent to damage or harm your former school you did make the lax (notice I didn’t say bad - watch your negative wording) so you had lax judgement from your injury and hung out outside of your school after hours.

Your best option is to say nothing if you do not have to - figure that part out. Frankly I really do believe you possibly had a TBI and your parents should have gone after the school for harmful behavior in light of your injury and stopped them from expelling you. I wouldn’t have stayed there but that would have stopped them from putting an expulsion on your record and you could have voluntarily left the school. You also may be able to go to the school with the whole TBI thing and appeal to them now to change the expulsion if you have to. I am going to venture to say that no attorney is going to take your case as it would literally cost you $5000-$10,000 just to have them represent you but you would be surprised at how quickly schools react over things like violations due to medical status, etc…