<p>government service doesn’t pay as bad as everyone thinks for most federal civilian employees. I’m surrounded by people making 70-90K+ and many of us don’t have college degrees.</p>
<p>
That’s not true. I don’t mind that my tax dollars subsidize others. I just sent in a ballot to vote in favor of a sales tax increase in my community to pay for essential services, and last summer I voted for passage of a parcel tax to benefit the local public schools, even though my kids have long since left the system. I figure that education of all the kids in my community is every bit as important as the education of my own. </p>
<p>I find it almost absurd that a person can live in a community and not see themselves as having an obligation to give back as well as a right to “get”. Why does “wealthy” have to equate with “selfish”? </p>
<p>Obviously it doesn’t for all – its pretty easy to rattle off the names of wealthy philanthropists who have dedicated their wealth to purposes of social good – and the student whose parents pay $50K a year for them to attend college are invariably the direct beneficiaries of wealthy benefactors who have paid millions to help provide the buildings, library, and research facilities on their college campuses. But just as obviously, the high income families who feel as I do aren’t here griping about college costs. I do have relatives who fit that “high income” category, and I have never heard any one of them breathe a word of complaint about the cost of sending their kids off to the colleges they can well afford on their incomes.</p>
<p>
That’s a lot lower than the $450K that the OP was talking about. </p>
<p>At least on this thread when I am referring to “upper income” I mean 6 figures. I realize that a 2-earner couple, each making $80K, is earning $160… but it seem to me that there are also a lot of SAHM’s on CC, families in which the upper income can be maintained by a primary breadwinner, with a spouse who works part-time if at all. </p>
<p>I would consider $70-90K to be “upper middle class”. If that represents a family’s sole income, then the family would also qualify for financial aid at private colleges. I am in that category on paper for my college. </p>
<p>(I make half that, but because I am a single parent & my ex also makes about the same, I have the privilege of having my financial aid calculated based on his income as well as mine, despite the fact that he does not contribute to the kids’ college education or pay ongoing child support. But the financial aid people at my daughter’s school told me that one way I could figure out my likely financial aid award would be to run a FAFSA calculation for him as well as for me, and then add the 2 figures together.)</p>
<p>let me say that if I was so blessed to have an income of 450K a year, I would not live that much differently than I do now. I would still clip coupons. I would still shop at yard sales and flea markets. I would have a car that wasn’t 20 years old, something from this current century would be nice…but a used car of course</p>
<p>yes, my 72K income is a BLESSING, that I savor every day even though I have to work with and for idiots some of the time.</p>
<p>Of course, my take home pay is 1/2 that (I am maxing out my 401K even though fafsa will add it all back in)</p>
<p>10 years ago I was making 40K. Yet I managed to raise a son, with no outside financial help at all, save enough to pay my EFC out of savings for ALL 4 years and still have enough to pay for a new roof.</p>
<p>
Yes, but that is a PUBLIC university without a large PRIVATE endowment, and the raised tuition is still a number that is heavily subsidized by taxpayers. (What is it now, about $8000 annually? or less?)</p>
<p>Sue, as lottery winners often find out the hard way, having a suddenly changed financial situation is nothing like you thought it would be.</p>
<p>Maybe everyone should click on the new advertiser on this board’s ‘click here’ and all become rich! Then we could really have some interesting discussions.</p>
<p>
The European model is fine with me… as long as YOU are willing to follow the European model in terms of the taxes you pay.</p>
<p>I’ve seen the shows about lottery winners. I’m not like that. I would take a cruise in a balcony cabin instead of an inside cabin. But I still wouldn’t gamble in a casino even if I had money to spare.</p>
<p>My standard of living has not increased as my income has which is HOW I saved so much $$ in the past ~10 years.</p>
<p>From what I’ve read it’s not the luxury items. It’s things like the family seeing them as rich and asking for help and their feeling they should share the wealth. It’s every organization you’ve ever had anything to do with sending their fund raiser to your door. It’s finally being able to move to a decent school district and only then understanding the associated costs. It’s going to a financial planner who makes you aware how much you need to be saving…</p>
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<p>Perhaps there are more wealthy or upper middle-class that think this
way than there are wealthy or upper middle-class that don’t think this
way.</p>
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<p>They are more likely? This doesn’t make sense. Do those that are more
well off pursue careers that are different from those that aren’t? Do
colleges provide advisors that tell rich students to major in one
thing and everyone else to major in other things?</p>
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<p>There’s so much waste in higher education, of time, talent and money.
We devote large public dollars in addition to the redistribution of
wealth to this and tolerate a lot of waste here.</p>
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<p>Yes it is.</p>
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<p>Define “others”.</p>
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<p>Would you vote on a ballot for a sales tax increase in your state to
benefit the people in my state? Why or why not? Are your dollars being
efficiently used?</p>
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<p>Why do those with less feel the need and enjoyment of stealing from the
wealthy in the form of taxes?</p>
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<p>I do. But only from those that feel that they can trust me not to judge
them. You can see the venom on these boards of the people that like to
jump on those here looking for a discount.</p>
<p>“At least on this thread when I am referring to “upper income” I mean 6
figures.”</p>
<p>That’s pretty laughable in a lot of coastal communities. I visited my
sister two decades ago on the West Coast. She said that she paid $400K
for her house so I was driving in her neighborhood thinking that I was
in the wrong place because the houses were so run down. I didn’t realize
that $400K didn’t buy much in her neighborhood. In my area, $500K would
get you a true mansion. Average houses were around $175K to $200K.</p>
<p>“let me say that if I was so blessed to have an income of 450K a year,
I would not live that much differently than I do now. I would still
clip coupons. I would still shop at yard sales and flea markets. I
would have a car that wasn’t 20 years old, something from this current
century would be nice…but a used car of course”</p>
<p>That’s the mind of the millionaire next door.</p>
<p>The important things about a car are reliability, efficiency and
cost-effectiveness. My car has 174,000 miles on it, has dings and
scratches but runs just fine.</p>
<p>“Yes, but that is a PUBLIC university without a large PRIVATE
endowment, and the raised tuition is still a number that is heavily
subsidized by taxpayers.”</p>
<p>Do most privates have a large endowment? Have many with a large
endowments screwed up with illiquid investments the last couple of
years?</p>
<p>“Sue, as lottery winners often find out the hard way, having a suddenly
changed financial situation is nothing like you thought it would be.”</p>
<p>But that’s a function of being a lottery player which is a
self-selected sample. There are many that can handle additional wealth
without a problem; especially when you aren’t the type to go looking
for large wealth without effort.</p>
<p>“The European model is fine with me… as long as YOU are willing to
follow the European model in terms of the taxes you pay.”</p>
<p>I have no problems with that as far as university education goes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The reason is there are hundreds of other “smartest people” that are willing and capable of doing those jobs. Even within academia, humanities professors get paid a lot less than engineering or finance professors. Most of the time it is because there are a lot more humanities professors that are willing to teach for those low salaries. If my manager could replace me with someone with lower salary they would do it in a heart beat.</p>
<p>I have to agree with hmom5, people like us who came from a humble background had no choice but to work for highest paying jobs when we graduated. My sister didn’t have the luxury of working for a DA’s office, she had to go work for a high paying law firm to pay off her law school student loans. My daughter’s roommate who uses a Chanel bag as her school bag is going into non-profit when she graduates. She could afford 25,000 salary because she will have no loan and her parents will subsidize her passion.</p>
<p>All in favor of the European model, say ai!
Motion carried!
: )</p>
<p>Well, the European models are available to us if that is what we want. But not too many of us want to send our 18 year olds into that. There are always a few kids from my sons’ school that go to England or Scotland for college, and a handful to McGill, but that is about it.</p>
<p>
So you’d support a substantial increase in the top marginal rate if it was going to fund higher education in a way that reduced tuition?</p>
<p>There is a lot to like in our college education model. The problem is that the information and system is so scattered and disorganized due to our free market that few people truly know most of the alternatives that are available. So how do we expect our 18 year olds to learn the system? How do we get all kids of all backgrounds understand the alternatives? One thing that most of the world has over us is a pretty clear path as to how it works to get a higher education. It is amazing how many myths we have about how college work and what a good student can expect and not expect. The finances part is also riddled with myths. I am willing to bet that less than 1% of the population understands how financial aid/merit works for college. Even kids and parents who go through the financial aid process often still don’t know what just happened. How FAFSA, PROFILE, EFC, merit awards, gapping, loans all work is pretty danged complex to me. </p>
<p>By the time most people get to College Confidential, they have some idea of what is happening, and you don’t need to surf the threads to see that even then, most are very, very confused. </p>
<p>One of the huge shames we have in this country is that our state university system is not consistent and not at all equal opportunity. If nothing else, that should be fixed. It would be a great equalizer if all kids at a certain ability and interest level have the opportunity to go to the state universities. It would also be a big boon to be able to have a lot of kids who live in less than optimal environments to get away from home so that they can focus on their education not distracted by home problems. </p>
<p>HPY, etal like to brag that they get the best of the best. Well, not quite. Forget the kid whose parents won’t fill out the FAFSA or any forms, or who just won’t ante up the money. They can’t get their toes in the door. </p>
<p>I think in the next few years, the top schools will be even more selective than ever, as even those who can afford to eke out private college costs are goiing to be cost conscious and want a lot of value for their money. I am hearing stronger rumblings of this among the college parents. They’ll bust the bank for Harvard, but Hardav College had better deeply discount the price. Schools that rank midway between the little known names and the top names will be pricing accordingly with top students getting the deepest discount, (top defined as what the college wants). So those kids with parents willing and able to pay more will have a good range of schools to choose, whereas those who are the neediest and are not on college wish lists are going to have it tougher than ever. </p>
<p>Any ideas on how to set this whole thing up so it is simpler and truer to principles, and fairer?</p>
<p>“So you’d support a substantial increase in the top marginal rate if it was going to fund higher education in a way that reduced tuition?”</p>
<p>Higher education there is rationed at a much lower rate than in the US. I would expect taxpayer savings as far fewer are served.</p>
<p>“HPY, etal like to brag that they get the best of the best.”</p>
<p>I think that there’s less bragging this year as their best and brightest were running their endowment funds. And Wall St.</p>
<p>“Any ideas on how to set this whole thing up so it is simpler and truer to principles, and fairer?”</p>
<p>Perhaps everyone should avoid going to college for say 2009 - 2011. I actually think that State Universities provide a great education if you know how to go about getting it. Unfortunately a lot of the systems are as cryptic as the financial aid system.Something that you’re starting to see is the state universities wanting to act like the private universities in how they price and behave.</p>
<p>Below university is a completely different and bigger problem and to me, one that defies fixing.</p>
<p>I don’t know about other states, but it is not nearly as complex as all that in California, at least for kids who don’t get bitten by the prestige/private school bug. The vast, vast majority of kids go to the CSU’s & UC’s, sometimes by way of 2 years first in community college – the application process is pretty well streamlined, plus for the UC’s it takes place early in the school year. Calif. students fill out a FAFSA and submit a one page form for Cal Grant. The CSU’s are affordable to most middle class families – many students are able to work their way through college at the CSU’s. </p>
<p>My only problem as a parent was that I never anticipated that my kids would want private colleges. I figured they would apply to the UC’s, which conveniently have 1 form for 10 campuses and allow student to check off whatever campuses they are interested in. “Eligibility” is also pretty straightforward and quite formulaic. </p>
<p>The problem isn’t the lack of a so-called “European” model … its with the students who are not happy with the public options in their state. Now I’m a kid who grew up in Texas and did NOT want to go to the local UT branch campus where just about every kid from my high school ended up … so I understand the desire to go somewhere else to college. </p>
<p>But then again my parents didn’t think that someone owed it to our family to reduce the costs. They wouldn’t even allow me to apply for financial aid – they told me that they could afford whatever I wanted and that was that – and we certainly were not rich, though obviously the costs of college back in the early 70’s were much lower. </p>
<p>It seems to me that what has changed is a personal sense of entitlement. It’s not just with college – it seems that kids these days expect to have all sorts of things provided for them that wasn’t the norm when I was growing up. But – at least here on CC – that whole sense seems to have infected a lot of parents, whether it is on the financial end or those get angry when their kids are waitlisted or rejected by their top choices schools, as if the act of applying to a competitive college is supposed to be a guarantee of admission.</p>
<p>
So you’d be happy with paying taxes to support a system that was closed to your kid, if your kid didn’t pass some sort of qualifying exam to go on to gymnasium at age 12, and was sent off to vocational training instead?</p>