FAFSA for "Upper Middle Class"?

Paying for College
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<p>“It seems to me that what has changed is a personal sense of entitlement. It’s not just with college – it seems that kids these days expect to have all sorts of things provided for them that wasn’t the norm when I was growing up. But – at least here on CC – that whole sense seems to have infected a lot of parents, whether it is on the financial end or those get angry when their kids are waitlisted or rejected by their top choices schools, as if the act of applying to a competitive college is supposed to be a guarantee of admission.”</p>

<p>My first year at BC was $3,500. It’s $50K right now. My salary hasn’t gone up 1328% in that time (only 900%). I think that the average person would like to know why the price of college has far exceeded annual inflation rates or even annual increases (if there are any) in income. We expect a discount because the prices are jacked up so high.</p>

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<p>“So you’d be happy with paying taxes to support a system that was closed to your kid, if your kid didn’t pass some sort of qualifying exam to go on to gymnasium at age 12, and was sent off to vocational training instead?”</p>

<p>My daughter had a male friend at the community college that got a little too aggressive so she just avoids him now despite some stalking here and there. He’s a desired (by colleges) minority and would be considered low-income. He attended a private four-year university this past fall. I suspect that he flunked out which is why he’s now at the community college. I have no clue as to why the university accepted him and presumably gave him a decent amount of money.</p>

<p>At the community college, he’s taking what those here would consider elementary and middle school subjects. And struggling with them. I do not know how he is funding community college but perhaps he has a part-time job or is taking advantage of the Hope or Lifetime Learning credits.</p>

<p>So we have a considerable amount of money wasted here that could have been given to someone that could succeed. You stated that we need people with education. How do you justify this kind of waste of resources that potentially takes money away from those that can succeed and giving it to those that are highly unlikely to succeed?</p>

<p>As far as testing and filtering go, it provides a pretty big incentive to fix K12 education.</p>

<p>I’m having the discussion with our daughter on what she wants to do and what I think her abilities are. She’s welcome to change my mind but if I don’t think that she can succeed in a university, then she won’t be going on my wallet.</p>

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<p>^I completely agree that there should be an achievement component tied to government grants. Way too many kids are not invested in their education and don’t end up finishing even a two year degree. The government should hold them to a higher standard but only ACG/SMART have an academic requirement. Putting a limit on subsidized loans and Pell funding for underperformers would force them to get their act together or find an alternative route to the workforce.</p>

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Are you willing to pay the inflation adjusted prices for airfare and consumer goods? </p>

<p>Some things have gone way up… others are way down. My kids have lived and traveled all over the world. There is no way that my parents could have financed the travel that I paid for when my kids were in high school or that my daughter has financed on her own in college.</p>

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<p>Sure. For the most part they’ve gone way down over the long haul.</p>

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<p>I have a lot of complaints on fiscal and monetary policy and the way The Federal Reserve has managed the currency over the years. I recommend The Creature from Jekyll Island. The best that I can do personally is to try to take advantage of the self-destruction of our currency by the banking system. Of course if all of the other countries do the same thing, then we may not be that bad off.</p>

<p>Inflation is simply another form of theft - robbing savers to pay borrowers. Since it’s open game on the wealthy and savers, you see little protest about it. Outside of countries like China buying large amounts of gold.</p>

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<p>im going to go the other way. I say that you fill out the FAFSA. I would make your kid take out the loans (25 grand over 4 years?) and i would not pay it back for him. I dont mean to offend, but he has probably had everything handed to him his whole life and he should see that some things require work and money that you earn, not that is given to you.</p>

<p>Loans will be a great thing for your kid. Probably will change his life and teach him a lot about the world.</p>

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<p>“I dont mean to offend, but he has probably had everything handed to him his whole life and he should see that some things require work and money that you earn, not that is given to you.”</p>

<p>Frankly I would assume that someone with a 2400 SAT would know a little about work and effort.</p>

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<p>I think one way to reduce the ridiculous cost of education would be if we could somehow do away with the rankings. (A fantasy, I know)</p>

<p>Here’s what I think happened: A few top-ranked schools were already ridiculous, but most other schools were at least somewhat affordable. Enter the rankings. Parents become fixated on them as a status symbol: “Junior MUST go to a higher-ranked school than the next-door neighbor’s kid.” More apps pour in to the top schools, who understand that they have a commodity of almost limitless value, and price it accordingly. Higher prices at the top of the ladder pull up prices on the next rung, as kids who don’t make top-tier start chasing those spots. And so on down the ladder.</p>

<p>As more apps pour in, of course, acceptance rates fall, making the schools ever more desirable, generating more apps. “The harder it is to get into and the more expensive it is, the better it must be, so I’d better apply too.” The luster of exclusivity (low acceptance rate) justifies even higher prices. It’s basic supply and demand – more customers chasing a desired/scarce resource will cause prices to climb every time. And IMO the rankings have alot to do with this vicious cycle.</p>

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<p>I don’t think eliminating rankings at this point would matter. We all know roughly where schools rank and, if not, we could figure it out on our own. Good idea, but wouldn’t work (as much as I agree with you!) :(.</p>

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<p>True, the toothpaste is out of the tube by now. But there is a growing rebellion among some colleges (including some top-tiers) who note that it’s not particularly useful to reduce an entire institution, an entire educational experience, to a single number. And as college consumers, I still think there’s value in understanding what a disservice the rankings are.</p>

<p>This is a good overview article on some of the arguments against rankings. </p>

<p>[College</a> Rankings](<a href=“http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_College_Rankings_2/]College”>Education.com | #1 Educational Site for Pre-K to 8th Grade)</p>

<p>“Stuart (1995) identified a number of general methodological problems: 1) Rankings compare institutions or departments without taking into consideration differences in purpose and mission; 2) Reputation is used too often as a measure of academic quality; 3) Survey respondents may be biased or uninformed about all the departments or colleges they are rating; 4) Rankings editors may tend to view colleges with selective admissions policies as prestigious; and 5) One department’s reputation may indiscriminately influence the ratings of other departments on the same campus.”</p>

<p>USNWR and others have an obvious interest in keeping the rankings game going, and one way they do this is by changing up their formulas year by year. Who would buy the 2010 issue if it’s unchanged from 2009 and 2008? So… </p>

<p>“Monks and Ehrenberg (1999) found that U.S. News periodically alters its rankings methodology, so that “changes in an institution’s rank do not necessarily indicate true changes in the underlying ‘quality’ of the institution” (p. 45). They note, for example, that the California Institute of Technology jumped from 9th place in 1998 to 1st place in 1999 in U.S. News, largely due to changes in the magazine’s methodology . . . Machung asserts that “new” rankings are a marketing ploy by U.S. News to sell its publication.”</p>

<p>Some colleges resort to manipulating data or other deceptive practices purely for the sake of rankings:</p>

<p>“By examining the inconsistencies between the information colleges presented to guidebooks and the information they submitted to debt-rating agencies in accordance with federal securities laws, Stecklow (1995) has documented how numerous colleges and universities have manipulated SAT scores and graduation rates in order to achieve a higher score in the rankings publications . . . Although many college officials admit that this practice raises ethical concerns, they continue these manipulations because there are no legal obstacles preventing such action.” </p>

<p>Rankings need to be taken with an enormous grain of salt.</p>

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<p>That’s right. You totally missed my point – you are griping about how much college tuition has gone out and think that somehow entitles you to a discount. I say fine, if you want to go back to old pricing… you ought to be willing to pay the inflation adjusted excess for all of the many “lifestyle” perks that are now far more affordable than they were 30 or 40 years ago. </p>

<p>In other words, my question is are you willing to pay $1500 to fly your kid to and from college each time?</p>

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<p>I certainly wouldn’t, but then, that’s because I know <em>my</em> kid!!</p>

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<p>A 2400 on the SAT only means that the student can score 2400 on that exam. It does not mean that he/she has ever studied for anything, or has ever lifted a finger around the house. Some people are just naturally very quick at learning the sorts of things the SAT tests, and just naturally “get” the logic behind the SAT questions. Think of all of the threads here along the lines of “2400 SAT, 2.0 GPA what do I do?”</p>

<p>Someone who has a 3.7 in challenging classes, and wiped out on the SAT is much more likely to be a student who knows how to apply him/herself to their studies. Better yet, show me the kid who has a 3.7 in challenging classes and a 20 hour a week after school job, or a 20 hour a week extra-curricular commitment. That’s the one I want in my classes!</p>

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<p>happymomof1, you know my kid, I see (and don’t want him in your class)!!! Oh, this is cracking me up!!</p>

<p>(Not that he got a 2400, but a 2350 as a sophomore is close enough.)</p>

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<p>my son ‘only’ got a 2250 on his SAT (no preps, inner city public ‘magnet’ HS)</p>

<p>Work, yeah he does it. Money, he can spend it like water. Work Ethic is not the best, but he does it because he wants to spend money</p>

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<p>“That’s right. You totally missed my point – you are griping about how much college tuition has gone out and think that somehow entitles you to a discount.”</p>

<p>This is a common expectation.</p>

<p>“I say fine, if you want to go back to old pricing… you ought to be willing to pay the inflation adjusted excess for all of the many “lifestyle” perks that are now far more affordable than they were 30 or 40 years ago.”</p>

<p>That’s fine with me.</p>

<p>Technology has reduced the price or vastly improved the quality, efficiency and usability of a lot of things. It’s surprising to me that a college education hasn’t been made more efficient while we’ve had technological revolutions in so many other areas.</p>

<p>“In other words, my question is are you willing to pay $1500 to fly your kid to and from college each time?”</p>

<p>Sure. I did fly when it was very expensive. Our son logged 200,000 air miles by the time he was 5.</p>

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<p>“I certainly wouldn’t, but then, that’s because I know <em>my</em> kid!!”</p>

<p>He got a 2400 with no effort?</p>

<p>[Think of all of the threads here along the lines of “2400 SAT, 2.0 GPA what do I do?”]</p>

<p>Could you point me to one of them? I’ve never seen one.</p>

<p>Scoring perfectly on the three part test implies not only intelligence but also diligence. You may take for granted what your kids have accomplished but the rest of the 99% don’t have this.</p>

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<p>OP here…(and sorry in advance for the long post)…</p>

<p>I had answered several people privately, as I am generally a pretty non-confrontational type of person and I was very distressed reading some of the comments that have been bandied about here. I honestly had not anticipated the firestorm that my post would create. I decided to write one last post on this topic and then (at least on my part) let it go. </p>

<p>First, to owlice – you are right, I did not respond to your suggestion about saving $80K – I think I mentally lost your posting in the shuffle amongst so many other posts. I agree with one part and don’t with the other. My son does work summers and will continue to do so to pay some of his expenses. He currently does not work during the school year, as he is in boarding school and it is not possible for him to work off campus and there is not the opportunity to do so on campus. I also am not yet sure about my feelings about him working during the school year at college. I feel that college, especially if you are in a demanding program, is a full time job on its own. As for taking loans, this is the part that I don’t agree with (again, just my opinion!) I know for some this is not an option; in fact, it was not an option for me when I went to college. I came out of school with over $20K (this was a long time ago…) in loans that took me a long time to pay off. I would have certainly preferred to come out of school debt-free. My husband came out debt free and I don’t think that I have a stronger work ethic, etc. than he does as a result. I think it depends on the individual. And we are also a family that tries very hard not to take on any debt, unless it’s absolutely essential (ie – mortgage). We don’t even finance our cars….but we also keep them for a very long time (my current car has over 100K miles on it and I have no plans to buy another any time soon…it has it’s share of dings, not to mention that my son’s sports gear keeps a certain aroma lingering, but it’s reliable and cost–effective to keep it as long as I can.)</p>

<p>As for the other posters: I am not going to individually go through each and every assumption that has been leveled against me and my family. But in a nutshell: we have a high income. I have been mocked for calling us “upper middle class”…but in my mind, the next step up is “wealthy”. In this area, (as someone else posted), there are truly wealthy people who would be clutching their sides with laughter if I referred to myself as wealthy. Everything’s relative. Maybe there is another categorization in between the two, but I didn’t know what that would be. We also have our family expenses and help my elderly mother in law financially. And we are generous with charities, including donations to our alma maters and our children’s current schools (which for the most part only give need-based aid, so we are helping to contribute to those endowments and scholarship funds that, again, benefit others.) But we are frugal…I clip coupons, I buy on sale, I am not a spendthrift and don’t believe in “keeping up with the Jones’ “ That’s the way I was brought up and I’m not about to change now. If I can save money, I do it. I think anyone would be nuts not to. And this applies to college costs too. I DO NOT feel entitled to anything, nor would I ever lie or try to cheat the system. But it would be foolish of me not to try and do what I can to try and minimize those costs. </p>

<p>And as for my son’s work ethic (or, the assumed lack thereof, according to some)….he did get high SAT scores (not 2400, but close) and he has over 4.0 GPA (and is currently taking 5 AP classes in the mix). He is a editor on the school paper, editor of literary magazine, clubs officer/founder, Special Olympics volunteer, works with a community reading program for elementary school children. He’s a good kid and a hard worker. Please don’t assume that he is a kid that’s had everything handed to him. He’s fortunate in that he has always lived in a home where he has two parents who love him and love each other. He’s never had to worry if his parents could pay the bills, but we don’t shower either of our kids with material things. If he wants a new ipod or whatever, he saves for it. Coming from a family where my dad became ill and died while I was in 10th grade, mom had a low level clerical job and then she herself developed cancer the year after dad died, I know the kind of financial (and all-around) stress that others write about. Mom cobbled together financial aid, loans, etc and all 4 of us kids graduated from college. It was not easy or fun…does it build character? Maybe. I don’t think it was worth the price but we had no choice, like many others here. </p>

<p>I just wanted a little advice on minimizing college costs. I had frequently read that EVERYONE should fill out FAFSA, because “you never know”. If I had taken that at face value, I wouldn’t have asked the question…but obviously, it was a mistake to do so. In hindsight, perhaps I should have more carefully chosen the wording for my post. I still think that CC is a good resource, but I will tread much more cautiously before opening myself up again. I’m thinking that some will probably pick apart what I’ve written here, too, but please try and think about what you write before you do so and try and give the benefit of the doubt to the poster…don’t assume the worst about people. I’m bowing out of this topic. Thanks to those who were supportive and took the time to address my question.</p>

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<p>what you found out is that you have to look for colleges that will give merit aid regardless of your financial need. Do not get your hopes up that Ivy league schools will give you much aid</p>

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<p>A 2350 with no effort.</p>

<p>my2sunz, welcome back, and please stick around. This IS a great resource, indeed. </p>

<p>Regarding loans, you could always pay them off for your son after college, partially or fully. On working while in college, research has shown that kids who work some (10-15 hours, I think it was) have better grades than kids who don’t. When I was a student, I did best when I worked; I had to organize my time better, and did. </p>

<p>“Lower upper class” is what you are; you are definitely not middle class. Yes, it’s all relative, but still…!</p>

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<p>If college wasn’t worth what you paid for it – and college was much less expensive then! – why would you want your son to go?! I think you must, indeed, think it was worth the price, since you are looking to send your kid to college, and expensive ones at that!</p>

<p>:: goes back to polishing her glass house ::</p>