FAFSA for "Upper Middle Class"?

3togo · April 30, 2009, 10:42am

I do think rankings have not helped the cause but I think they are far from the main driver … I’d go with something like this …

Here’s what I think happened. A few top-ranked schools were already ridiculous, unfortunately most other private schools cost about the same and this was really unfortunate since merit aid was almost non-exist but fortunately the supply of spot at the elite shcools was near the demand of high caliber candidates (the acceptance rates were OK through the 80s at all but a handful of schools)

Enter the many-many more quality candidates … multiples more … their was a double whammy … the raw number of college age kids went up by a huge percentage over the last generation … and at the same time the % of kids who attend college went up substantially. The bottom line over twice as many applicants for the same number of slots … so many elite candidates cascaded to schools historically considered less elite but now raising in status as the number of top students attending went up.

Of course YMMV

3togo · April 30, 2009, 11:06am

My2sunz … great post in #238 … I hope you do not become more careful before opening up or feel hindered from asking questions.

I thought your orginal question was a fair question for a CC rookie to ask although it could have been worded better. That said CC can be a harsh place … you took a lot of flack on the way to the baseline advice … no you will not get financial aid, if you’re looking for help look for merit aid, and filling out the FAFSA may be a requirement to receive merit aid at some schools. I think there are couple things that drove a lot of the harsher responses.

First, I’m not sure how many categories you want to divide wealth into however your family’s income is in the top 1-2% of household incomes in the US … comparing that to folks in the top 0.5% and trying to label your family’s income upper middle class or even something between middle class and wealthy is a pretty tough pill for most folks to swollow. If wealthy only applies to 1% of the population it would very dscriptive but sure require a heck of lot more difinitions of categories than something like poor/low income, middle class, and wealthy. My guess would be that categorizing your family’s income as middle class will almost always draw the same initial negative response from the lion’s share of folks with income in the lower 98%.

The second is more on the CC community and somewhat of a naive rookie question by you. Your question is a legit question but pretty naive to think a family with income in the top 1-2% of households would be eligble for financial aid (barring extreme extenuating circumstances). OK, it was a naive question … this is why I think it hit a nerve. During the same month you posted about the possibilty of receiving financial aid about 10 kids posted threads about not knowing how they would pay for college because their parents will not pay a dime … and another 20-30 threads were posted by families trying to figure out how to send their kids to school at all. Your question is legit … but for me the situation is so far removed from the realities of the families struggling with college expenses … and for me it hits a nerve as oblivious to reality of financial aid and the much tougher situations of others … and I believe similar reactions from others on CC led to some of the harsher responses.

I’ve been on CC 5 years … it can be a harsh place … it also can be a great resource. I hope you stay on CC and receive and give advice and share your experiences. This post was not meant to be a dig but helpful hints.

sueinphilly · April 30, 2009, 11:24am

also the OP should realize that, Assets are part of the fafsa formula the Ivy’s and many of the other Top tier schools will require the CSS profile and will ask you even more, like how much equity you have in your house.

I’m going to just assume that someone with income in that 450K range is going to have assets in various forms (besides retirement accts) that will be assessed.

Bay · April 30, 2009, 11:33am

OP,
There is a lot of good advice on this thread, (sorry you were put through the wringer to get it!), but keep in mind that not all of it is necessarily accurate.

For example, we were told that H may give FA for families in the $400K range, if they have multiple kids in college.

No one here knows your exact financial circumstances, nor do they know what every college will offer to get ahold of your stellar son. Good luck!

oldfort · April 30, 2009, 12:27pm

My sister asked me if she should check off the financial box on the common application, their income was twice of OPs. Her rational was “you never know.” I told her it’s not like a lottery.

I came in rather harshly because I really didn’t think OP deserved what she got on this board. We never know anyone’s circumstance on CC completely, and I don’t think it’s right for people to jump into conclusion about someone because of finance, race, geographic location or choice of schools. It’s no one’s business why someone chose to a high or low paying job, one is not better than another. It doesn’t give you the right to belittle someone that’s chosen a different path than you.

sueinphilly · April 30, 2009, 12:42pm

<<fa for=“” families=“” in=“” the=“” $400k=“” range,=“” if=“” they=“” have=“” multiple=“” kids=“” college=“”>></fa>

Maybe if you are the Goesslings or the Duggers and have 4/6 kids in college at once…

momofthreeboys · April 30, 2009, 1:35pm

and the beat goes on! 3togo that was a nice summation.

randomthots · April 30, 2009, 1:50pm

I’ve been following various threads on this forum for some time. I am surprised at the anger directed toward people who have household incomes above, say, 100,000, (based on my rough and unscientific analysis of the comments). Many of you justify your anger at the wording of the OP’s post. It rubbed you the wrong way, she’s not middle class, she asked for a little help, etc., etc. None of this is justified, IMHO. Nitpicking like this is the enemy of communication. Some of you choose to lecture her on what it’s like to have low income, ignoring the fact the she knows this quite well. And she rightly predicted that she’d continue to be a target after her last reply.

I’d like to post a link to a financial aid report from Caltech which “loosely” defines the middle class with incomes from $120,000 to $180,000.

<a href=“http://www.mcafee.cc/Classes/BEM106/Papers/2008/CollegeFin.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mcafee.cc/Classes/BEM106/Papers/2008/CollegeFin.pdf</a>

On Page 6, first paragraph:

In January 2008, Harvard announced a differed policy need-based financial aid to limit parents’ payments to 10% of their income if their household income was between $120K and $180K. This policy is directed against the class of people that had been largely ignored by financial aid – families with too much money to qualify for financial aid but not enough money to comfortably support rising college costs, especially for families with more than one child. Students with parents earning under $120K now pay nothing. Yale and Princeton announced similar policies in later months, but didn’t get the reaction that Harvard did.

Page 9, first paragraph:

This may be an indicator for what the market will be in five years, with the market experiencing a widening gap between these two brackets. This will decrease the competitiveness between the two brackets because they will each be targeting different groups. They still want the “best” students to attend their schools, but Harvard, Princeton, and Yale will inevitably get the best and brightest of the middle-class applicant pool, where we loosely define ‘middle-class’ as families with a household
income in the $120- to 180,000 range. The lower bracket of schools and the rest of the schools in the “Top 25 National Colleges” list cannot afford to compete with Harvard, Princeton, and Yale for the middle-class and will therefore compete for the best and brightest students of the upper class.

This agrees with what the Caltech reps said on their webinar on financial aid.

Full disclosure: I’m a SAHM. My husband makes about 1/4 of the OP’s household income. Years ago I quit a good paying job to stay home, (something I never thought I’d do), and I’ve never looked back. But because of that, we’ve had to sacrafice a lot of material things. It was a choice. I do feel for people that are struggling financially, but don’t resent others because of the choices you made.

LasMa · April 30, 2009, 2:01pm

FAFSA’s EFC is based almost entirely on income. While the OP’s past spending decisions are no one’s business, the fact remains that on that income, they COULD have saved for college. They chose not to, and now have to grapple with the consequences. Like most of us here, they will now have to make some tough choices about balancing lifestyle cutbacks and loans. Welcome to the middle class!

owlice · April 30, 2009, 2:12pm

LasMe, I think they likely DID save for college, but would prefer not to spend so much on college if there is a way they can avoid doing so. I can understand not wanting to spend money, even if they have it. I’d like a coupon, too.

oldfort · April 30, 2009, 2:17pm

My read is OP probably has savings and assets, but is just trying to find a way not having to pay full fare, just like most people would love to have a discount whenever they could. I could afford full price of a car, but I would be happier if I could get a few thousand $ off.

LasMa · April 30, 2009, 2:26pm

The first post said that paying for college would be a “stretch,” which I take to mean that they don’t have tuition socked away somewhere. I’d prefer not to use our college savings for college too, but that’s what it’s there for.

my2sunz · April 30, 2009, 2:32pm

“If college wasn’t worth what you paid for it – and college was much less expensive then! – why would you want your son to go?! I think you must, indeed, think it was worth the price, since you are looking to send your kid to college, and expensive ones at that!”

Owlice - Just to clarify - I think you misunderstood what I was saying…what I meant was the experience - the “price” or the toll - of character building; not the literal price of college tuition. I not only think college is worth it, I think in this world it’s a necessity.

randomthots · April 30, 2009, 2:39pm

In response to #191

“very very few colleges and very very few kids. the “best of the best” are hardly ever considered to be from the “average” public school without resources to “enrichment” opportunities and advanced classes - regardless of their potential or inner drive or intelligence.”

Not true! My daughter from Podunk who attends Mediocre HS is proof of this. Admissions takes into account what the students do relative to what’s available to them.

BCEagle91 · April 30, 2009, 2:41pm

“I think in this world it’s a necessity.”

The stats on the number of people with college degrees is somewhere around 30% (just a number I grabbed off Google). That the other 70% survive show that college is not a necessity.

sueinphilly · April 30, 2009, 2:59pm

yes, we survive. I have never been to college and finally at the age of 47 I’m making a decent living, 72K. At age 30, I was starting over after a layoff with 13K. I have scraped and clawed up to this level and like I said before in the past 10 years my salary doubled to what it is today. I bought my first home at age 40 and saved 4 years of EFC (about 65k) during that time period.

If I can do it, so can the person making 450K

You have to WANT to save, no frills everyday, for YEARS, nay decades

cptofthehouse · April 30, 2009, 3:39pm

Of course the person making $450K can afford college. I don’t think that is the issue. What is the issue is that the person making $450K or a million bucks a year absolutely should be looking at the most cost effective way to do and know all of the options. And he should not be slammed for asking questions on a forum set up for the purpose of giving options and ideas. The information here should be freely given to all.

As for those with a zero EFC or with financial issues that truly make it unaffordable to pay out ones own resources, the options are more limited.

You have done well Sueinphilly, and also admirably passed on your resourcefulness to your children. Many folks who make a load of money but not enough to buy such a life for their kids, have to make a big effort imparting the wisdom of checking out options in undertaking something. If nothing else, I think that our need to look at all of the options and look at the financial implications of college, has brought the reality of college cost to our kids. They are a bit spoiled, especially my older ones, as I wanted to give them everything and spare them financial worries. Not a smart way to bring up kids who are going to have to watch their money when they are on their own. We are in the category of living a pretty good life, not not having enough to ensure such a life for our kids. Kinda unfair to get them used to the cush and then pulling it out from under them.

People like you on the boards are what bring the reality and possibilities of college to life and I consider your stuff some of the most valuable information given. I read all of your posts along with about a half dozen other CCers. What I did not like was the way you approached the OP’s question. I don’t care if that was Donald Trump or Gates or one of the Rockefellers asking the question and not wanting to pay full freight. The question was not asked with malice and should not have been mocked or shamed.

sueinphilly · April 30, 2009, 3:56pm

Funny thing cptofthehouse, is that my son is NOT like I am with money. He spends freely and unwisely. He KNOWS every minute detail of what I have been thru and he is NOT like me in many many ways. He does this by choice and I sit back and go ‘huh??’ My frugal living must have been a turn off. BFD. He’s in for a reality check eventually because when I’m done paying for his college, the only thing I will provide him is a roof and food. He still won’t be able to drive my car.

I think alot of the reaction here was the ‘tone’ we sensed that paying for college and private school would be a stretch. To those of us who could NEVER consider a private HS for our children, and who make a fraction of the OPs income, it came off ‘wrong’. Yes, I’d want the best deal too. I would have probably done some research before posting and KNOWN most of what we told the OP. You and I both know they aren’t going to want a lower tiered school that might offer great merit aid. I bet most of the schools on their list are private schools that use profile.

I think we did the OP a service by telling them NOW, rather than next spring, that they won’t get substantial aid at an Ivy with that income

I also think that now that the OP has added that they don’t want their kids taking out even a stafford loan or working, that they are wanting something for nothing. I know YOUR kids have loans and jobs, as does mine.

Bay · April 30, 2009, 5:26pm

Most kids who are raised in a lower-economic lifestyle will NOT do as well as your son, sueinphilly. Everyone knows this. Socio-economic status is the best predictor of academic success. So a lot of upper middle class people spend every last cent trying to ensure that their kids are raised in an area that offers the best schools (or go to a private school), with the best opportunities, where they will be surrounded by high-achieving peers and their intact families. This gives them the best chance of making it to a top university, which is a laudable goal.

Unfortunately, the result can be that while the child is perfectly prepared for the top u., the parents have spent all their money getting him there, and then have to scramble to take the next step. I can understand how this happens and don’t hold it against anyone. Many people who figured they would sell their homes and downsize to pay for college are finding that this is no longer an option. It made perfect sense at the time, though.

sueinphilly · April 30, 2009, 5:45pm

But he didn’t know any better. It’s not like we didn’t have food, clothing and shelter and cable tv. I bought a computer in 1995. He didn’t use the internet much then, but he’s had it his entire school career. What he didn’t have was the latest video games, we were always 2 generations behind.

We lacked for nothing. He didn’t know what other people had and most of his friends had what we had or a little more.

He played soccer (pretty cheap sport), did Boy Scouts, Civil Air Patrol. 
No private lessons, no frills. You don’t miss what you never had

If you asked him, I bet he would tell you that I provided every necessity

FAFSA for "Upper Middle Class"?

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