<p>I am stating upfront that this is NOT about my kids or their friends. My husband and I had a intellectual discussion about some people we know who, in their 60s, have never held a job. They have lived with their parents, off their parents, and have “borrowed” from their relatives all their lives.</p>
<p>Example: A former neighbor who came back from Vietnam emotionally damaged. He was, from all accounts, quite the wild child. His father, a psychiatrist, left him a house which, when sold, and other monies, left him several million dollars. He never married. He never worked. His father’s nurse is now his girlfriend and cleaning him out.</p>
<p>A friend from high school. Spoiled and sickly she worked occasionally. She went through her parents’ money and died in section 8 housing.</p>
<p>An “artist” who never got a job. Lived off his wife (who inherited and then lost it all) and parents. Now, at 63 they are struggling.</p>
<p>When is it time for parents, siblings or relatives to sit someone down and say, “WE (I) love you. But your career path isn’t working…you must find a life…whatever.” Or do parents/friends (I admit to “loaning” one friend money ONE time) stand by and watch and wait? Should parents give false hope for the breakthrough? Or should relatives “know” that they will be supporting their child/siblings forever?</p>
<p>Are you including SAHM’s (or Dad’s) who have worked long hours to facilitate the career of a spouse unable or unwilling to provide little more than financial support, or have found themselves caring for a disabled child or other relative without compensation, because they could not find a job that would pay enough for them to hire someone else to take over these responsibilities, found that exquisitely credentialled working men and women have been clueless and have advocated “treatments” all but guaranteed to make their relative worse off than without, or found that their child or relative did not fall within any kind of “safety net?” (Or perhaps they wanted the luxury of sparing their relative the types of abuse rampant in many of these settings?)</p>
<p>I am seeing lots of these people being “cut loose”, often at advanced ages, with no reasonable expectation of developing the type of history that would make them employable.</p>
<p>Disclaimer - I myself am a SAHM, and I would not want a similar life for my D, because of the attitudes that all too many feel free to display towards women (or families) in these situations.</p>
<p>Also, a few years ago, there was an article somewhere (NYT?) about middle-aged men who had failed to launch, living with parents or other relatives. I think that this was quite common a few generations ago in large families, especially among women, where one child never married and took care of parents until they passed, and also helped out with the children of other relatives, with the expectation that at the least, they would not become homeless. At least, that is how it worked out in our extended families, in the last half of the nineteenth century and first half of the twentieth century. An adult with a disability could also be hidden within the family, or institutionalized.</p>
<p>I would also keep in mind that during the past few decades, there has been a rapid decline in the non-prison institutionalized population.</p>
<p>Absolutely not…never. People who raise families, care for people (without or with pay) are working. And there is a stigma against people who devote their lives to raising a family, and care for their families.</p>
<p>The young woman I referred to spent her days going to lunch, having manicures…The neighbor didn’t take care of anyone. He spent his days smoking and tanning. He didn’t take care of his father. He loved his father, but his job was to tan.</p>
<p>I too am a stay at home mother. It is work. And yes, I remember the cocktail parties where women (always women btw) would say, “And what do YOU do?”</p>
<p>I see, and thanks for the clarification - no, I do not know anyone in the category you describe. I do know lots of parents of adults with autism who worry about what will happen to their children after they die (even those who are low-functioning can end up on waiting lists for placement that are decades long, depending on where they live), and several adults who help out siblings who never married or found a job that would pay enough for them to live comfortably, let alone put aside savings.</p>
<p>And yes…that was the initial spark for the discussion. </p>
<p>I have a cousin who wanted to be a painter. She went to an art school. Wasn’t a superstar. At 30 her parents sat her down and gave her the 411 on life. She began to teach art to children. Became very successful as a teacher. My cousins (now in their mid 80s) are terrific.</p>
<p>It is really tough to know both when & how to intervene, how to pass on valuable information and have it be heard and see anything change. A parent can ‘rag’ their kid and there is no listening, no hearing. It is a mystery what we say that does or does not get through.</p>
<p>I have a family member whose son had a decently prestigious ‘full ride’ to a top 50 school, the kid dropped out in junior year mainly due to the usual college questioning of life, but he had no support system. He was extremely intelligent, as in he can learn things, but not so life/street smart. He has floundered into his 40s including 5-10 years living with his parents. It’s very sad to see someone who is a really nice guy with all the potential in the world just squander his life. No real job for years, no significant other ever that his parents know of, and smart enough to see himself as a failure so add some situational depression to the mix.</p>
<p>When he lived with his parents many family members advised him to take his old transcript to the nearby university and finish his degree. He would have the piece of paper for future resumes and he would meet people there who could see his intelligence and encourage him back into having some confidence.</p>
<p>I saw another friend’s kid in a similar bad situation 3rd year, but that kid lucked into just the right family support and quickly recovered the path.</p>
<p>I don’t know what could or should have been done to help the older guy after that first opportunity was missed.</p>
<p>I really dislike this kind of discussion because it evokes all kinds of judgments based on so little information. </p>
<p>People work in varying degrees that support themselves, other people, or society, either by earning money or helping others, or doing none of the above. All I know is looking from the outside in, may be quite misleading. </p>
<p>I had an adult brother once who lived at home and kept my ailing father company. He made food for them but wasn’t really doing a lot of other things he should and could have been doing (to my frustration), but my father quite liked the arrangement. I know another person now of a similar age who literally works full time caring for both of her parents while living in their home. If I have the facts correct, there is simply no comparison between my brother back then and that young woman now. Life isn’t fair. </p>
<p>I know SAHMs who work their butt off in a full time job caring for their families and it’s a real job and a half and they are amazing (especially when you see their families). And I know a few wealthy SAHMs whose biggest occupation is to put in a few hours at the charity-du-jour each week, go to tennis lessons, get a massage, and make sure their their housekeeper and cook are paid. Given my vantage point (again limited info), simply no comparison whatsoever between these SAHMs. </p>
<p>And of course I know tons of couples in which both work full time outside the home, one makes very little, the other makes a ton, but both contribute equally in off hours to their home lives. No one seems to care that one is actually contributing a huge amount more than the other because they both like it that way and love one another. </p>
<p>Drawing arbitrary lines from the outside of how families appear to live and support one another (or exploit one another, if you will) is really not my business if everyone in the family is a willing participant. But I am glad that families are taking care of each other somehow.</p>
<p>My next door neighbor is one of those people. He has a very marketable skill but chooses not to work, even though his only child is now a teenager. His wife worked her butt off to get through college, but is now unemployable because of the economy. They have always lived in a 3 room apartment owned by the wife’s uncle. He doesn’t cook or clean the house, he plays his guitar most of every day and has his buddies come over with beer. The son wears clothes that don’t fit, is horribly overweight, participates in no activities, has no friends, and the parents don’t attend any school events – even the workshops for high school applications. This all, as you can imagine, drives the wife crazy. I think I would have tossed him out on the street. Thank God for the uncle who gives them a place to live, meager though it may be.</p>
<p>^ Thanks. I was just raking leaves and thinking about this thread and what I wrote. I just want to say I was being judgmental about being judgmental! And anyone who might have seen my posts before, probably knows that “being non-judgmental” is not my strong point! I guess you could say I’m working on it… :)</p>
<p>Like most people, I don’t like being put in a box and judged for my choices, especially by those that have not walked in my shoes or know the challenges of my particular life or those of my family. And that is a good place to start for reminding myself not to do it so much with other people’s choices.</p>
<p>DH’s “baby” brother was one of these people. (He passed away several years ago.) When he graduated from college, he came back home and lived with his mother (who had been recently widowed). Worked a variety of low-level jobs and was fired from several of them, sometimes for dishonesty (eg, forging or mis-representing his time sheet). When he was 38 or so, his mother went into a nursing home. When she passed away, DH and his older brother both insisted that the house be sold. It then came to light that baby brother had been using Mom’s checking account to pay for his own things. The house was finally sold and the assets divided, and that’s what baby brother lived off, until he ran out of money, his health went downhill, and he finally got onto welfare and Medicaid. </p>
<p>An uncle offered to get him trained as a Workers Compensation Administrative Law Judge but bro-in-law thought it was beneath him. :eek:</p>
<p>Not exactly the path I’d wish for my children.</p>
<p>I suppose one really scary aspect of having a child who cannot get launched for one reason or another is that since health care costs have skyrocketed, one small and easily treated illness, or even an injury resulting from an accident, could nudge even an adult too old for a parent’s health insurance into poverty, unless they can qualify for medical assistance. </p>
<p>If the parents end up paying for this child’s medical expenses out of pocket, life and retirement savings could disappear overnight and more than one person could end up impoverished.</p>
<p>I too would prefer not to pass judgement without knowing the particulars of a family’s situation.</p>
<p>Well, eb, to answer the original question, in the situations you describe, the time to intervene is … never. Would such a conversation have made the slightest difference? The exception is if minor children are at risk, but other than that, all anyone can do is sit on the sidelines and watch. Unfortunately.</p>
<p>It’s an entirely different thing if someone who’s been on a good path suddenly suffers a bad break. A laid-off older person in this economy is going to have a tough time finding work, as are many recent graduates. Medical insurance often doesn’t protect us financially as it once did. Savings which once would have been safety nets have been hurt badly by the market. In these cases, being on public assistance isn’t an indicator of character IMO. These folks could maybe use help, but probably don’t need intervention.</p>
<p>My sister and sister-in-law both fall into this category. I am smart and so is my husband, but our sisters are scary smart. They are both in their 50’s, neither ever graduated from college and neither has ever held a job for any period of time. My sister actually has some computer skills. </p>
<p>Both were married but neither marriage lasted long enough for them to collect SS off their ex-husbands and I doubt either of them has enough credits otherwise.</p>
<p>My sis milked the little my parents had out of them. It was so bad that I couldn’t even send them any money because they gave it all to her. They died in poverty and my sister sent me their last bills. I had offered to pay their rent but only if they sent me the direct info for the landlord so they couldn’t send the money to my sister, who has drug issues on top of all else. She now lives in section 8 or similar housing several thousand miles from me, is on disability and collects welfare. I will never send her a penny because she will use it for drugs.</p>
<p>My sister-in-law lives with her mom, who at least was smart enough to change the deed so that my husband actually owns the house. Sister in law gets food stamps, which she does not use for things her mom can eat, SSD and Medicaid. For years, she refused to go on Medicaid because she wanted “better health insurance” which her mom paid for! My husband finally convinced his mom that she woulld have no money left if she kept paying for his sister’s health insurance.</p>
<p>Both of these women are lazy, disgusting leeches. My sister-in-law actually has the nerve to tell people that she raised my children and is more of a mother to them than I am because I work outside the home! My oldest is 21 and the one and only time we left him with her as an infant, she did not change his diaper for 8 hours! I encourage my kids to have a relationship with her but at this point all of them have figured her out. She calls my oldest when she wants to go to a movie and he gets stuck paying for her, which means I do because he only works part-time so I reimburse him for her ticket and gas money. My kids have no dealings with my sister because I think she is dangerous.</p>
<p>Frankly, if I hadn’t married him, my husband would probably still be living at home as well. When we sold our first house, we moved to his mom’s while ours was being finished. After 6 months, I finally took the children and went to the new house. He followed but for awhile, I wasn’t sure he’d leave his mommy.</p>
<p>By the way, to those who possibly misunderstood my initial question: My question was NOT about looking over the proverbial fence and judging the way the neighbor conduct their lives. The question was: At what point do parents, or should they, sit down with our kids and give them the 411 on life? IF you continue on X path THEN these are the possible outcomes. At what point do parents say you have given X a great try but this isn’t working? And I can’t fund your life for the rest of your life (lives).</p>
<p>These questions do not pertain to families with, as mentioned for example, autistic children. Totally different set of issues.</p>
<p>^ Ah I see. I think it is going to be one of those hard ot answer questions as it depends on so much. A bit like the threads about when do you push, when do back off. Another classic parenting tension where most parents want the same goal, but go about it differently (and of course it depends on so many factors, including parents abilities and goals, and also the type of kid they have and also family culture/upbringing).</p>
<p>In my neck of the woods, where we are surrounded by families from more collectivist cultures, its absolutely the norm for multiple generations to live together and I have no clue who contributes what to the family household. </p>
<p>I know some families that swore they’d give the boot to their child after highschool graduation if they weren’t going to college (and this was back when said child was in 10th grade). Said child is now 3 years out of highscool, working in minimum wage job and living at home. One parent absolutely hates it and rants all the time about how said child must leave, the other has a different view point and so said child continues on this path. All I know is it is a REALLY TOUGH situation for a parent to be in; intellectually you might think you know the ‘right answer’, and emotionally it is really tough to do when you are in that situation. </p>
<p>No one said parenting was easy but some of us have it much much easier than others.</p>
<p>Honestly, if we had plenty of money I’d be just fine if my kids didn’t launch. I’d want them to move in with their significant others and raise their babies in our great big glorious family compound.</p>