Fairness: so is this how you play the game?

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
1

<p>I’m following these posts on CC in anticipation of my college auditions next year - class of 2016. My parents and I are concerned about feedback we are getting from my school friends who just did the auditions this year.</p>

<p>According to one of my friends at her MT audition for one of the top MT programs a popular audition coach was able to sit in and watch the entire dance audition. Of course, my friend’s high school teacher was not allowed to view the audition. She told me that this audition coach was was very friendly with the auditors from this school and many other schools seemed to know her well. I understand she has a high rate of acceptances -more power to her - but how come she gets this advantage, say.over another college audition coach, High School Drama Teacher or parent? I don’t want to be involved with unfair practices.</p>

<p>And to add more fuel to the fire, the head of another top MT program recently did a Master Class at Performing Arts High School with this same coach. To make matters worse, there is a group picture with this coach, the head of the department and the master class all over facebook.</p>

<p>We are concerned about fairness in this whole audition process. I am aware that there are other college audition coaches, workshops and classes, which can be educational and informative to get the inside scoop on what each school wants, but is it okay that ONE particular college audition coach is given special treatment?</p>

2

<p>I truly believe if you have the talent you will get in and have some great choices to make. My daughter did not have a drama teacher sitting in on her auditions and did quite well through this whole process. It is what it is…you can’t worry about it being fair. It’s not! The best you can believe is that true talent will be acknowledged and sought after. This whole profession is not necessarily “fair”. There are always those who have “ins” because of who they know, what their parents do, etc. You can’t change that. It definitely can help to know the right people who may have that little extra push of help you need. But you still have to have talent. </p>

<p>If this coach sat in on an audition and the kid wasn’t any good, I seriously doubt it would matter a bit. She could talk to people from various programs all day long, but if there are 20 kids who are much better, I really think the school wants the best kids and best fits for their program. </p>

<p>So the best you can do is be prepared. Make yourself better. Take those lessons, work on your monologues and nail those songs! Working with some coaches who know the process can help…if you are able to do it…do it! If not, just work hard with what you’ve got and I wish you a great audition experience next year!</p>

3

<p>It can feel unfair, and I’m rather sure I know which coach you mean, but I have heard straight from the mouth of the head of one of the top programs that those audition coaches can hurt a kids’ chances as easily as help them. And as has been said, the adjudicators are seeking top talent and probably know it when they see it.</p>

<p>This is by no means unique to the MT world. D has played in top flute competitions for years, and there are inevitably those coaches who show up and schmooze the adjudicators before the judging begins. </p>

<p>Since D has never had such a coach for either MT or flute, she knows she has to “bring it” and even more importantly bring HERSELF to each audition/competition and hope she is who they are looking for.</p>

<p>Best of luck as you move through next years’ process. One has to love theatre in spite of knowing that subjective ranking of artists can, by definition, never be “fair”.</p>

4

<p>Actually, it goes deeper than just sitting in on the auditions I am afraid.</p>

<p>Some of these auditions coaches can get students into private auditions or early auditions before the rest of the pack…I know this because of a friend who had these benefits and was accepted to numerous programs. IT is absolutely true that there are unfair advantages in the process…no question.<br>
The thing to remember is that there are unfair advantages to every selection process–humans make the decisions. Casting shows is often a very ‘unfair’ process and people hire people they know or people who have worked with who they know all the time. This coach obviously prepares students well and brings them people who have been successful in their programs…It looks like she is sort of a scout that the schools don’t have to pay for–the students’ families do.<br>
Connections absolutely matter, but so does talent. It does not matter how many connections you have if you don’t deliver the goods. So what people are saying is very true. Focus on being audition ready–be the best you can be and choose a list of schools that gives you reaches and safeties, and hopefully it will work out for you. But this is a very good reason to remember that it doesn’t mean you’re not talented if you don’t get in a top program.</p>

<p>However, honestly if I had to do it over for my D again, i would have hired an audition coach with connections to the college audition circuit. My D did get some acceptances but I think it could have gone better if she had been better ‘connected.’ If you can afford to hire a top coach without breaking the bank, I would strongly consider it. Yes, of course there are those who make it in without coaches at all…but the fact is that there are far more talented students than the colleges can take–I would give yourself every advantage possible.<br>
Just being honest here. It is a brutal business, if you are that incensed by the unfairness of college auditions, you might want to reconsider your career path. Just sayin’ :)</p>

5

<p>^^^Agreed! I have no idea whether or not audition coaches are included in some auditions although I would not be surprised. My D did not witness this happening although to be honest she wouldn’t have known who was a coach as she didn’t use one. Of course this process may not always be “fair” but guess what? Welcome to the real world of theater. It certainly is no better when auditioning for a show! My daughter has auditioned for shows in which they obviously have already pre-cast a role, and also where the director’s daughter (using her middle instead of last name) was auditioning. That’s just the way it is and better to get over it and do the best you can do when auditioning for anything. As others have said, no school is going to invest 4 years in a student unless they believe that student is a worthy investment, no matter what any audition coach says. All you can do is go into your college auditions as prepared as you possibly can be, and do your absolute best, without worrying about factors that are beyond your control.</p>

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<p>I know that I will sound naive, but colleges are in the business of educating youth people and in my opinion should hold themselves to a high standard of fairness. And private coaches associated with the process should also. If this becomes all about just making a buck for the theatre department or the private coaches, then they should move out of the university setting.</p>

7

<p>I cross posted with CalMTMom- I don’t necessarily agree totally with her in that we would not hire an audition coach if doing it again. However, I have no problem with those who choose to use one. This is a brutal business and it is best to use every advantage that you feel is necessary. In all other respects, CMTM is right- if you are that worried about “unfairness” during college auditions, this may not be the right business for you.</p>

<p>I will say that my D did not use any coaches, but prepared herself in every way possible and had wonderful success with her auditions.</p>

8

<p>This discussion suggests that there is nothing that can be done to change unfair access. What are we teaching our kids if the answer is to go hire that coach that is getting unfair special access or to stay out of the system if it is unfair.</p>

<p>If college personnel are giving unfair advantages to a private coach, there is an easy thing a parent or student can do – send an email or letter to college officials. One email complaint may mean nothing but a series of complaint will certainly get people’s attention. Colleges will be very sensitive to this type of issue because it means that students who cannot afford a private coach “with access” are being treated unfairly. It is one thing for a student to be better prepared b/c they can afford a private coach, but it is quite another thing for a student to have a better chance of being admitted because their coach is given special treatment. Send an email with as much specific information as possible. I know that alot of this will still go on behind closed doors, but they should at least be forced behind those doors.<br>
The problem is the private coaches who get private access (and worse yet market themselves that way), schools that give it and people who see it happen and do nothing.</p>

9

<p>I am reading these threads with great interest as one who is currently in the midst of receiving rejection letters daily and watching the tears well up in my daughter’s eyes. We knew this would be hard. We knew it was extremely competitive. We knew it would be unfair. That is fine. However, this coaching business has been a real eye-opener. And it’s starting to feel like a scam. Most of these kids are plenty talented. Most, including my daughter, are “local stars”. It really seems as though it’s not about talent anymore and certainly not about raw talent. These kids want training and while life is not fair, and maybe this is as good a time as any to learn that, it is very disappointing to discover that she could have been much more successful if we had spent money buying connections rather than developing her talent. If I had it to do over again, yes, I would probably hire that coach. But not happily.</p>

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<p>I have to say I agree with Natalie - I expect schools to conform to at least a high enough standard that they apply the rules across the board to everyone. If one kid’s coach is allowed in, they should all be allowed in. Or the parent, or whoever is with the kid in this process.</p>

<p>“It is one thing for a student to be better prepared b/c they can afford a private coach, but it is quite another thing for a student to have a better chance of being admitted because their coach is given special treatment.” </p>

<p>I totally agree, and I bet if schools did get a big outcry from parents who objected to this uneven application of the rules, they might rethink it. ~ Unless they have so many apps in excess of what they need that they can be cavalier about it and say “if ya don’t like it we don’t really care, the line is more than long enough with people who will put up with it” and the scary thing is, it’s so competitive to get into these programs, it wouldn’t be shocking to find out that was the case at some places.</p>

<p>I know that having talent matters and no coach can substitute for talent, but I can see how being right there and getting real time feedback from the very auditioners on a student would be immensely valuable information for a coach to have, and to use to increase both that student and future student’s ability to turn in the kind of audition the schools want. There’s nothing wrong with that UNLESS only very certain speshul people get it and others don’t - I know schools are a business, anymore (though they pretend not to be) but parents and students are paying to apply and I do think the one even playing field they should be assured of is the impartiality of the audition day itself.</p>

<p>I agree with Natalie that if someone can afford the best coach and prepares for years ahead of time and has an advantage over someone else who didn’t, well, that’s not in the control of the college. But permitting some coaches to schmooze and not permittting others, or parents, is totally in their control and I don’t think it’s ethical.</p>

<p>That being said - although I do think there should be a distinction between the way colleges treat you and the way the world will treat you, I do agree this is a vicious and really unfair business (not that most of the real world guarantees anyone a fair deal either) and it’s important to decide if this is something you can put up with out in the real world. This isn’t fair at all and it should be, but unfairness is going to be the rule out there I think.</p>

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<p>Is there anyone without a coach or fancy camp background doing okay this cycle? I don’t care about years ago because I think it’s much harder now.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, the musical theater audition business has become a ‘cash cow’, and many college staffs are buying into it, seeing it as an opportunity, I believe, to reap some of the moneys themselves (education is soooo underfunded!) or possibly, to locate students whose families can afford to pay huge out of state or private tuitions. I hate to be so cynical, but when there is a coaching/summer program out there that charges $2,555 for 10 days (not including housing) and staffs it’s program with department, dance and drama directors from 7 different “prestigious” universities, something that feels very insidious and sad is going on. With 40 students participating, they would bring in $100,000 dollars! </p>

<p>Fortunately, there are college summer programs and camps that have been going on for a long time, that are reasonably priced and offer a wide variety of scholarships to students that not only want to improve their craft, but just enjoy being teenagers. </p>

<p>And, there are audition coaches that are reasonably priced, at about the rate of private voice or instrument lessons, that have been in business for a long time, whose goal is to improve the student’s musical and acting ability overall, in addition to shepherding students through the daunting audition and college selection process.</p>

<p>So, choose to participate in those programs, and hire those coaches that are operating ethically and have been in the business for a long time. Audition for schools that are not just the big names, but the small and not so well located colleges that truly seek to educate their students in their craft, and are looking to actually instruct, rather than finding those students already marketable.</p>

<p>We are in the middle of a ‘market swell’ in an area that used to be innocent and talent based. Fortunately, this swell has also increased interest in attendance at theater productions and tours, bringing with it many jobs domestically and overseas that have not always been there. If this is truly what you want to do, go in with eyes open and persistence at hand, leaving yourself flexible and open to all opportunities, and you will succeed!</p>

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<p>I don’t think any school can refuse to take these types of complaints seriously – whether they have 500 or 2000 applicants. If unfair access is given to private coaches, at the very least it has the appearance of school practices that unfairly treat students who cannot afford a private coach and, at the worse, violates college rules.<br>
I said it was easy to send an email with a complaint but some parents may hesitate to do that because their child is applying next year, their child is in the program that they want to complain about, or their child was rejected from the program and they are worried about it appearing like sour grapes. If you want to let a college know something that happened, but are hesitant to do so, feel free to send me a private message about it, and I will find the right person at the school and send your comment along to the school. (I don’t think it is necessary to give the names of individuals involved – just the facts.)</p>

<p>(I am a parent of a daughter who auditioned this year and had very good experiences. But I did see that this whole system is very stressful for students and parents and anything we can do to make this system better, we should.)</p>

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<p>Flossy…my D never had a “coach” or “fancy camp” experience per say. She did have voice, dance and some monologue work but never one of those heavy hitter college audition coaches. She went to a regular high school…not a performing arts school and was never the lead in any of the high school musicals. But she worked hard and took every opportunity to perform and learn. She did not apply to the super reach colleges like CMU (she had no interest in them) but was accepted artistically and academically to all but one of her schools for both BFA and BA programs. The BA programs were both audition and non-audition. She knew of several kids who auditioned at these same schools who had either Broadway credits, coaches and/or summer experience at expensive camps. Not all of them were artistically accepted.
This was last year so it’s pretty on par with what’s going on this year. It’s all about a balanced list, talent and a BIG dash of luck! I think my D did just fine. :)</p>

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<p>It is not an entirely fair process. It very rarely is when it comes to auditions. You don’t know who was part of the audition structure, who has sat in on auditions, whose in bed with whom. That’s just the way it is. If your kid did a summer clinic with someone with clout on the audition board who really wants the kid and the audition was not so hot. there will be consideration. Yes, all sorts of things make a difference in any auditons. And that 's how it will be in the future too. It is not a fair process. Don’t even think that it is. </p>

<p>I knew a young woman whose cousin was on an admissions committee and she gave the gal several coaching lessons with tips on exactly where the points cost the most and what she needed to nail. Small surprise that person was accepted to that program, and not many others. It happens all of the time. My son was outraged when one of the judges fell asleep during his audition. Sound asleep. Crossed it off the list-got in anyways. Didn’t get accepted one place where everything seemed to be a charm.</p>

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<p>My D has an audition coach and a vocal coach. One might even say that the audition coach has some connections. That, however, does not provide any guarantees to my D. She has auditioned for 11 colleges, large and small, and has received 6 “No” letters and 2 acceptance letters so far. I feel that the one of best things that the audition coach provided was excellent selection of monologues and songs. My D did not go in with anything that the colleges had heard a hundred times before – which she probably would have done if it had been left up to me! The time and money were worth it in that my D went in to each audition feeling very prepared and confident in her talents, not in the connection her coach may have had.</p>

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<p>Will the original poster’s problem with the system really be solved if all audition coaches are not allowed inside the audition room? Let’s face it, that is merely scratching the surface of the “problem.”</p>

<p>The really issue is how connections and money used on lessons/coachings/ summer programs and camps can elevate a kid with average talent (or smarts) into a better position.</p>

<p>Well, that can be applied to just about every aspect of the college process in just about every field.</p>

<p>And that can be applied to the audition process as well as the hiring practices in all fields.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, life is not fair. And the people who tend to rise to the top are those who know how to work the system the best. That does not mean you need to be back-stabbing and corrupt. But it would be a better use of one’s time to understand the workings of things rather than just complaining about the “system” and unrealistically expecting to fix it.</p>

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<p>I’m going to raise an alternative perspective which I believe is going to run contraian to the main thought process in this thread. It seems to me the dominant thought is the “fairest” process would be if the same amount of information was used for each applicant (the tryout) and to resist using outside additional information unless you have if for all applicants.</p>

<p>I was the boys coordinator for the local travel soccer club and we had a very similar tryout process to place players on our teams. When we revamped our tryout process we had this exact discussion. The starting position we had was the fairest process would be that we only use tryout information that was collected in the fairest process … and that we would not use any other information unless we had similar information about everyone.</p>

<p>We also looked at the accuracy of the tryouts … which frankly is not the greatest … our evaluations are far from perfect and the kids performance in one short tryout has a lot of variation from their true norm … never mind issues with kids who tryout better of worse than they actually play.</p>

<p>Which led to a discussion of what other information we could use … we decided against using info from players or their parents (no credibility) … and decided against using info from rec coaches (again info from these unknown coaches was not credible). However we did decide to include information about current players from the club about current players. By doing this we believe the tryout revaluations of these players are more accurate than for those players we only have tryout info for … please note this additional info from current coaches can either help or hurt a player comapred to their tryout performance.</p>

<p>So we consciously decided to violate the “fairness” process desired in this thread of using the same info for all tryout participants … to move to a process where we used the most credible information we had for each applicant knowing this would vary by applicant. (FYI - the biggest challenge for me as coordinator was knowing how to use each particular coaches input … some provided great input … some did not … some were biased … but knowing these coaches while I took input from all I knew which coaches to put a lot of wright on).</p>

<p>So my guess is a similar thing is happening in these MT tryouts … the schools are listening to input from additional sources and using it if they believe it is credible … and this input could help or hurt the applicant. Similar to guidence cousenlors if these audition coaches have the ear of these schools their credibility depends on their giving honest input to the schools … too much stretching the truth for a current applicant and it just hurts their credibility advocating for future applicants.</p>

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<p>All we really have is anecdotal evidence. We all know some kids WITH coaches who get in top schools (or get in nowhere) and we all know some kids WITHOUT coaches who get in top schools (or get in nowhere). The field is very crowded - especially if you are a girl. You just have to be exceptionally talented (not just “good at your school”) to get into these programs today. </p>

<p>The atmosphere in MT today is just like it is with the classical music world. It really does help if your teacher knows “THE” teacher. My S is a soph in HS, but already he knows that his acceptance in a music conservatory will depend a lot on who his teacher knows. His teacher is personally setting up private “sample” lessons at conservatories for S this year and next because, apparently if the teacher likes you, they can bypass the actual audition senior year. It’s all about who you know!</p>

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<p>The difference is that a vocal coach or audition coach is being paid by the individual who is auditioning, and therefore should be their advocate. If I was paying someone $150+/hour to help increase a student’s chance of getting into a program, I would be very upset if the coach turned around and said things against the student they are paid to coach.</p>

<p>A high school coach or teacher is being paid by the community at large. They should be unbiased in their assessments.</p>