Fairness: so is this how you play the game?

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
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<p>Of course, someone who has connection to the process and the judges is going to have an advantage, all other things equal. There really is no way to cut off every single connection. In the field of performing arts, this sort of thing is rampant. </p>

<p>That the system is overall fair is shown when the students comprising the class end up being a diverse group which usually happens with the better programs. Yes, there might be one or two kids there who got a lift that got them in. Every program will have those. But this exists in every admissions program under the sun. You are not going to see a nationally ranked program where most of the kids are all students or connected to the admitting board. Also there are kids who have connection at one place that may prefer to go elsewhere. The process is fair “overall” but there are definitely unfair elements to it. If the results show that a program is truly slanted in who they pick, don’t bother auditioning for that one.</p>

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<p>It never occurred to me that my coach or anyone’s coach would go beyond monologue and song selection, school list advice, and coaching, to actually break the rules, get an exception and be allowed to sit inside the audition itself. I know it’s not fair and life isn’t fair (though I would expect state schools who are using MY federal and state tax dollars to at least pretend as though they aren’t blatantly using two sets of rules) but I wasn’t under the impression that I was paying for D’s coach to schmooze. Nor would I have expected her to do that - and I’d be uncomfortable with a school that didn’t truly make their decisions based on the student themselves and not on favors or cronyism. </p>

<p>There is a difference in the standards I expect from a school and the actual world of the business and I do think that’s a valid point that should not be brushed off with “oh well it’s not fair whaddya expect get used to it.” I agree you shouldn’t expect fair in this business but again, I just think a school should be held to a higher standard, at least of applying the same rules to everyone. I realize they often don’t - such as in the way they treat athletes vs others - and guess what, sometimes they actually DO get in trouble for that.</p>

<p>I realize it’s about talent, but when there are a hundred equally talented girls for one spot, that puts the one with cronyism in her court at an advantage that I don’t think state schools and state employees should be in the business of giving. I guess private schools can do whatever they want if they don’t take any state money…I don’t know if they get federal money or not.</p>

<p>“But it would be a better use of one’s time to understand the workings of things rather than just complaining about the “system” and unrealistically expecting to fix it.”</p>

<p>That’s a false dichotomy.</p>

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<p>I am trying to imagine what kind of advantage having a college coach sitting in on audition would be - I am having a little laugh thinking about the “Toddler and Tiara” parents standing up when their child is performing - doing the dance moves and making big smiles!! Seriously though, my daughter had 15 auditions without anybody’s coach sitting in on dance or vocal/monologue (that she was aware of) - she said that if it had happened it would not have phased her. Bring on your talent!! Connections will not make or break you in the end. A well balanced list that fits you should yield something positive.</p>

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<p>To make it clear, I think this sort of very public and blatant unfairness is foolish and unprofessional for a program to do. If I ran any sort of auditions , I would not permit any such thing because of the perceptions that it would cause even if it were for a harmless reason. And a harmless reason it could be.</p>

<p>There are those auditioning who got a personal phone call on their behalf from a mentor or coach to someone sitting on the audition board. Some one’s coach could have been on the audition process in prior years. In this inbred field there are so many possibilities that you don’t know who has what leg up. So though i do not condone this for appearance purposes, trying to stamp out all advantages for a completely level playing field is impossible.</p>

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<p>Agreed, CPT, because the auditioners don’t live in a bubble and can’t separate their past experiences and other connections entirely even if they feel that ethically they should be, because what is known can’t be unknown and the mind just doesn’t work that way. That’s different though from this situation which just seems to me to be exceptional. If an auditioner recognizes my D’s coach and knows this coach to be a good one that’s going to be a plus and I don’t think that’s unfair, or for anyone else lucky enough to have something recognizable as good training on their application. It does boil down to talent and fit but the recognition factor can weigh in when they are making tough decisions, and we know there are lots of VERY talented kids they have to decide which ones they are going to turn away. If someone is lucky enough that the auditioner knows the high school director or coach and it works in their favor - well, that’s just life, it’s not a deliberately unethical thing going on.</p>

<p>(one last edit: and I hold the school much more so responsible for this than the coach. If the schools are playing this game and a coach whose students are paying them for help has a chance like this…kind of hard to expect them to be noble about it if nobody else is…thats’ really an unfair ethical dilemma for a coach. The school is the one who is making and breaking their own rules here. Not so much the coaches, who are just playing the rules given to them.)</p>

<p>I just thought that this particular example is beyond the pale and adds an unnecessary element of unpleasantness for students and their wranglers to be sitting there in the waiting room and see a priveledged person blatantly sail into the room in front of everyone else. That’s going too far and right in peoples faces like that? Really? I do agree that’s not especially wise, if that is what happened.</p>

<p>For the record, we auditioned at two instate, one OOS, and several private schools, and saw absolutely nothing of this sort where we went. One state school let parents in; the other two were private auditions, one let us in, the other didn’t. (that was the OOS school) None of the private schools let anyone else in and I saw no favoritism going on that day, not that we could see anyway but I got a strong feeling these particular schools wouldn’t do that sort of thing, not to any excess anyway.</p>

<p>The OOS school, btw, happens to be run by my sister in law’s best friend from childhood, and that didn’t get her in, (not that she called and said anything anyway, because she didn’t, and I don’t think it would have mattered) but I feel confident that is because this particular person is impartial and allows them in based on their fit in the program. They made special arrangements for her to have a private audition as the mass ones didn’t fit in her schedule, and it was a wonderful experience and I know she did well, but they had already filled most of their slots already and she wasn’t what they wanted for the remaining slots. I feel she was fairly treated and wish she could have gotten in but we knew it was a lottery school and that even letting her audition was very gracious of them.(and it had nothing to do with SIL because they had no idea of the connection) I’m probably so horribly naive but I wouldn’t expect that sort of thing to go on at that particular school, anyway.</p>

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<p>Why would she be at the audition if not to critique her kid and size up the competition? Were there no seats elsewhere in the hotel? That money and connections buy opportunity is a surprise to no-one, but what do we do now? It’s heartbreaking to read about teenagers staying alone in NYC hostels for 5 minutes with an audition panel that isn’t really giving them the time of day. Why require this of 1200 people to go through all of this turmoil and expense if you are looking for two dozen? And we all know the next two dozen are no less talented. These are supposed to be credible institutions of higher learning and yet so many seem to be looking for fully developed talent instead of trainable students. We are lucky in that my daughter has been accepted at a solid BFA program, although not one of the biggies. So do we consider it a painful lesson learned or buy the golden ticket and try again? There has just got to be a better way to do this.</p>

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<p>I rarely read a thread on this board with more interest than I read this one. I am really rather surprised by all of this. Really and truly. I have been told by several people on this board that they have applied to our institution simply because they found my posts kind and (hopefully) insightful.</p>

<p>Perhaps here is where that reputation ends. The word “fair” will never be used in the arts. There is no such thing. Is it fair that the student from rural somewhere had an instructor in English who directed one musical a year is up for the same position as the student who has taken four years of acting, seven years of dance, two years with a voice teacher, two years at Stagedoor Manor and two at Interlochen? </p>

<p>We are now seeing students with $1000 headshots, professionally designed resumes, audition coaches and agents. We also see students with no headshot, never been in a reasonable semblance of a play and don’t understand the first thing about how to begin to choose a monologue or a song. That isn’t fair. </p>

<p>The world of theatre is about connections. (Notice I did not say "it’s about who you know!) We connect with people. It is the very heart and soul of the interaction on stage between actors and actors to audience. I am friendly with a few of these coaches. We have made offers to some of their students. But we have also made offers to two students who did not have headshots. </p>

<p>There seems to be an assumption here that having the coach speak to me, or sit in on the dance audition, will sway how anyone casts a class. I speak from a very safe place: That will not happen. The coach will not be asked to teach the student for four years, nor will they have to cast them, and bring them to a place that makes them viable in the world of professional theatre. The school does that and not every school takes the same type of student. We all see talent and ability in different ways and with different students. No coach is going to change that. Too much is at stake. And to be perfectly frank, anyone with any success in the business has found that success because they have trusted their own instincts and gone with those instincts. That won’t change because this person or that person coached a potential student.</p>

<p>I don’t recall who said it, but they were dead on. I know if at least a handful of schools who will not even consider students who have certain coaches. If you want unfair… I would consider that to be unfair. The student does not know that simply putting down the name of Coach A will disqualify them from a school they have always dreamed they would attend. But there again, nobody ever said this is fair. </p>

<p>Do I think it is right for that coach to sit in on the group dance auditions? I’m not sure why it would matter. The combination will change from audition to audition, you can’t help the dancer by sitting there and in the end, the instincts of the casting directors will be the only thing that matters. </p>

<p>I tell students time and time again. The day you leave your undergraduate school is the last day that the name of the school matters. When you get into the audition it is the talent and the training that get you the role, not where you went to school. Will going to BIG SCHOOL get you into the door? Maybe. If the casting director went to that school it might get you into the door, but it will never get you the role. </p>

<p>I’ll leave you with this. We allow nobody in the room except those being cast and those doing the casting. Truth is difficult in a large group. The more people you know there, the more difficult it becomes. Coaches, parents, friends, etc are all politely asked to leave because we want to cast the best students for our program. The best way to do that is to see your best work.</p>

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<p>Honestly though, at one of my auditions for a school in the top 10 I would say, I had a very good friend who was a senior in the program who helped teach dance, sat in my audition, personally introduced me to everyone-kids and faculty included etc. and it did not help my chances getting in. So even though a coach may have “connections” it may seem as though they are helping in a big way but i truly think it doesn’t matter–other than making you feel better and more comfortable at the audition.</p>

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<p>You know what, jcarney, I completely agree with you but what incentive do the schools have to not do it this way? Or in fact even not to actually encourage this continuing upward spiral? What do they have to lose? Let’s see, all these hundreds and even thousands of excess applicants to the program who are bringing huge bucks in application fees to money strapped schools will probably stop coming in. ~ Oh, wait. (lol) Each kid can only get into one school, but if each kid applies to 15 or 20 schools, that’s 14 or 19 schools getting application fees and audition fees. (None of the schools we applied to had an audition fee, but some do.)</p>

<p>It’s a total win situation for the schools, well maybe except for the time spent looking at many more auditions than they will ever consider. Though if they prescreen, I don’t know if the director actually looks at those or if it’s delegated to someone else. But other than that - they have an embarrassment of riches from which to select their class, and aaaaaal that extra money.</p>

<p>No, I keep seeing the words “cash cow” being used when discussing the current MT educational scene and unfortunately I think the expression is, sadly for us and our kids, entirely fitting. </p>

<p>And thank God at least some schools are still looking for trainable as opposed to fully developed kids, or my D wouldn’t have gotten in anywhere. She’s a LONG way from being fully trained, and frankly, if she wasn’t, I probably wouldn’t be spending our retirement on school anyway, just let her go audition in the Big City or where ever now and rathole the money for the day she comes home ready to study something else. I think a school isn’t doing anyone a favor by taking the money from a kid who frankly has more enthusiasm than ability, but there’s a lot of kids with potential that hasn’t even begun to be tapped at age 17 or 18, and they deserve an opportunity to get top notch training too.</p>

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<p>kjgc, your post does nothing but confirm your honest and ethical nature (and provide a good bit of comfort too) and the way you describe your program is what I would expect from a good school, and fortunately, that’s the only experience that we personally did have. I am not sure what I would have done if a school was so inconsistent with their own policies as the story in the OP. I am sure that in our case, all my D’s admittances or denials were based on what they should have been based on, and it would be my hope that would be the case for everyone. I was really kind of shocked by the OP actually because our experience so far HAD been what I considered about as “fair” as it could be.</p>

<p>The condition that the MT industry is in, on account of the recent popularity, doesn’t reflect on my good opinion of the individual program directors and professors trying to suss it all out (I’m not sure just what they could change even if they wanted to) and as one poster said, maybe in the long run it will help the programs. I’m not against schools having some money. God knows they need it. I hope I didn’t come across as harsh - but I think some schools probably are just more, I don’t know, human, or humane, than others.</p>

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<p>Perhaps, the “dream” schools are not providing better training at all and if they are simply creaming off the already trained kids they will look like they have a more talented crop of students. Another rejection envelope today. Jeez, this is nuts. And it’s much closer to Toddlers and Tiaras than I expected from the college audition process. Onward and upward.</p>

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<p>Well - that’s why it’s really important to have a well balanced list including some non auditioned programs. And it’s not like those are second rate - as I have mentioned, the one we were most impressed with and want the most, is a non auditioned BA. </p>

<p>I don’t think all the most highly sought after schools are doing that - maybe none are - maybe some are - but as far as that issue, if it is happening, it’s not like MT invented that. <em>hard stare at the Ivies</em> We visited Dartmouth and I’m convinced it’s the most amazing educational opportunity in the universe, but I also realize the quality of the kids that they admit in the first place, would render almost all of them successful no matter WHERE they went. Doesn’t mean it’s still not an amazing school. This is that life is unfair thing. My objection was mainly to blatant rule breaking in people’s faces which almost comes more under the category of “rude”. They can’t make every kid’s dream come true but they can be at least decent about it, and as I said, all of ours were that.</p>

<p>We visited some of these schools and I don’t doubt the quality of the training - she’d have accepted if she’d gotten in, I’m sure - but I do have extra respect for schools who enthusiastically take on a kid with a more raw talent and help them, with hard work, to be able to do well at those auditions. I find kjgc’s statement “The day you leave your undergraduate school is the last day that the name of the school matters” to be very, very comforting because I know my D is a hard worker and I know she isn’t even anywhere close to how good she can be, yet, and even though she won’t be going to a lottery school, I don’t think that will hold her back.</p>

<p>It’s probably more of an irritant than anything else, wondering if that is what is happening at some schools, and feeling the sting of rejections (they hurt, no doubt, and we had our share) but I think if you had a good list you’ll hopefully be presented with at least one choice where you fit in the best.</p>

<p>About those rejections - you may want to see if someone can go over your list or look at it again yourself and if you don’t get any offers you are happy with, I think there are still some schools you can get into even now, (we are still getting postcards from places “it’s not too late!!”) and it’s not like there aren’t some good ones in that bunch. There is also transferring as an option, or a gap year…I totally sympathize with you but even though I look dimly on some things and tend to be outraged at any and all injustices in this world no matter how small, on the other hand (and I’m good at having two hands as ya’ll may have noticed) bitterness will only get in your way of finding your path. Take the lumps, lick your wounds for a while, then figure out a good plan B and remember to thank this forum because everyone here is really so honest and helpful, which considering the nature of this business, is kind of astonishing.</p>

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<p>I think kjgc has summarized everything very well and I am in total agreement. Yes, there are things that are inherently unfair with the whole process. No matter how it is handled, there will never be a level playing field. There are kids who because of where they live, or because they can spend the money, have an advantage of more experience or more training. My daughter auditioned last year and had great results. She went to a regular high school, took voice lessons weekly, but never attended any summer camps, or had other coaching to prepare her for auditions. Yes we do live in an area that has access to a number of theaters where she has done shows, including a large regional theater that is well recognized. She has friends from this area who auditioned this year, and have also had good successes with similar backgrounds. She also knows kids who have employed very expensive coaches and did not have great luck with college auditions. I have no doubt that what the OP describes may happen, however, we were not aware of it and it did not impact my D’s auditions. </p>

<p>As someone else has written, I don’t think this practice is unusual in specialized college entrances. The same thing goes on in sports, and I have no doubt my son will experience it as he would love to grab a position on a college soccer team. We know kids in baseball who have gotten special try-outs because a current baseball pro has kids at their school. We also know kids in music and dance programs who probably have an “unfair advantage” due to connections, summer camps, etc. It has been going on for years and it will continue to go on. The bottom line is that I still don’t think a school would waste their time with a student who is not going to cut it. While maybe a kid gets pointed out to them or gets a “private” audition, in the end they are not going to choose someone who would not make it in the program. I think all you can do is prepare yourself thoroughly for auditions and not worry about who else is out there. And if a program really does choose kids based on their connections, then it is probably not going to be a very successful program and you are better off not getting in.</p>

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<p>The top programs in nearly any discipline are fiercely competitive for admissions. I think that anyone who wants MT training has a lot of alternatives. It’s great to audition and try for the HPY of MT schools, but the acceptance rates make it a tough go, and those programs tend to be very expensive. There is financial aid and there are merit awards but they are tough to get and many tend to go those kids with the academic stats too. Actually entry into the most selective programs have a highly academic bias as well as talent/audition component. </p>

<p>I think that discussion of these things help. I know that I crossed Cincinnati off of our son’s list after reading about their cut policies and feeling that it was just too risky for my kid. I think others did the same. I think if a program gets a reputation for being to inbred and unfair in terms of who is accepted, then it is not going to get the applicants it could have gotten. I know that some of the programs where the higher gpas and test scores are needed lost some kids who were considering auditioning, but those are so heavily subscribed that they could probably take the hit. </p>

<p>In my opinion, the auditions are serious business and should have every appearance of fairness, as they should be fair. If someone’s coach is permitted to watch, so should everyone’s . It’s never going to be totally fair, but blatant appearances of favoritism should be avoided. I remember at one audition, several kids who were auditioning knew those in department well, and were greeted with squeals of delight and hugs. One kid’s mother was telling us how her son was in some special troupe that the head of the dept who was conducting part of auditions. led. There were connections aplenty. One mom asked and was allowed to accompany her son’s vocal audition, I remember. If you want to dig into who is who in these situations. it can be discouraging if you are coming in from the outside as we did.</p>

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<p>Well said, cpt.</p>

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<p>Take this out of the context of schools and put it in the context of the real theater world. Forget it.</p>

<p>In the theater, as much as anywhere else, more so maybe since it is such a tough profession, it is as much who you know as what you can do once you reach a certain level. This is even more the case in the real world…Who your agent is, your manager, your acting or voice coach…is going to have an impact on whether or not you are cast. </p>

<p>Also, and I hate to say this, what you look like.</p>

<p>Welcome to the theater. Break a leg. Or, as they say in France, Merde.</p>

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<p>My son used an audition coach who had graduated from the college my son now attends. The audition panel commented to him that they knew his coach and knew my son’s name from talking to him. He did eventually receive an acceptance (along with a few others from different schools who knew nothing at all of this coach or my son in advance.) </p>

<p>This year, the same coach helped two other girls from my son’s h/s to audition, and in the auditions the same audition panel commented that they realized the girls were coached by this man…that they were “his” girls. However, neither of them received an acceptance.</p>

<p>So is the coach a deciding factor? I would say not at all in this case. Does it help in this business to have connections to get your foot in the door for an audition…YES OF COURSE. As it does in all walks of life. (I got my first interview after college because of a friend of my dad’s and so did my husband, but we were qualified in every way on our own merit. That did not GET us the JOB, just the interview.) </p>

<p>So does the connection get you the acceptance? Hopefully not. Maybe if it does you are not going to a school who chooses and trains the best and you should look elsewhere because likely this attitude bleeds into the way the do lots of things. Like casting.</p>

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<p>Where did this audition coach get to “sit in” on a audition? Which school? I have been around the unified auditions in New York for 4 years and never saw a coach yet. Don’t take this as doubting you, I am just astounded.</p>

<p>Also, to have a audition coach brush up on a song or monologue is never a bad idea. I mean c’mon, MT is probably one of the most difficult degree to pursue. You should never underestimate the competition.</p>

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<p>It might not seem fair, but this happens in practically every sport, activity, really anything that requires an application/audition/tryout. My child just made a high school sport without private training sessions with a coach. I found out, after tryouts, that lots of the kids paid for private lessons. I don’t have a problem with that, but I’m glad I didn’t have to pay for it! If I feel the need to do so in the future, I am willing.</p>

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<p>Welcome to the real world! This happens in every walk of life. We complain about it but there really isn’t anything you can do about it. Just do your best to be prepared and hopefully you will be the lucky one! That’s what I have taught my kids. Remember Life’s not fair!</p>