<p>“They are shocked by the behavior of their cousin, but not surprised.”</p>
<p>Starting to feel a bit sorry for N here, as clearly he wasn’t brought up right in the first place. If he doesn’t figure out how to behave in a civilized fashion, he is going to suffer for his parents’ choices for a long time.</p>
<p>I want to reiterate what I said on page one: your H needs to make it clear to his brother that he will not tolerate the brother’s family treating his wife poorly. It is HIS responsibility in this case. </p>
<p>If your H genuinely felt that you had treated N poorly and this was your fault, then it would have been his responsibility to tell you that back when it happened. But unless you are delusional, which I strongly doubt 
, the shoe is on the other foot. </p>
<p>If I feel that a relative of mine is treating my H poorly, I tell them so. There was one point way back when when I had to address this with my mother. The behavior stopped. My H, on the other hand, allowed his parents to mistreat me because he was accustomed to this behavior from them and seemed to think I should just put up with it the way he did. Basically that is what eventually happened, but that was not what SHOULD have happened. And perhaps HIS relationship with them would have improved if he had manned up and told them not to treat his wife that way…</p>
<p>“Starting to feel a bit sorry for N here, as clearly he wasn’t brought up right in the first place. If he doesn’t figure out how to behave in a civilized fashion, he is going to suffer for his parents’ choices for a long time.”</p>
<p>I definitely feel sorry for N too. His major transgressions appear to be playing video games and being messy, not doing housework as directed. Doesn’t anyone on this forum have boys? How do you get them to do housework? Well, you train them. You tell them they need to do this, and if it’s not done, the next day you tell them to do it again. It’s really not hard, but alot of guys are blockheads. It’s not unusually rude or doesn’t mean there is anything especially wrong with them. You may not want to parent someone else’s kid, but telling them they need to take care of this NOW is not parenting, it’s just getting the work done.</p>
<p>There is always another side to the story, which we are not hearing. Have you considered how N felt, living at your house? You didn’t want him to be there, you resented his presence, you felt he was forced upon you, you think he’s spying on you, and you don’t like him. Anyone, even a blockhead would notice that, and yes, that would be a hostile home environment. I’ll bet he couldn’t wait to leave.</p>
<p>I have 14 nieces and nephews, with all their gifts and faults. Me and my husband made an agreement a long time ago. Nobody lives with us (unless it’s disabled parents), for more than a few weeks. We have been asked a number of times, and it’s easy to just spit that one out…nobody lives with us. But if somehow it had happened anyways, I would just have to figure out a way to make it work, because I truly do love them. I thank God that has never been tested! And I am repeating my mantra, nobody ever lives with us, nobody ever lives with us…</p>
<p>busdriver11 - I read your post. I haven’t stopped crying since I read it.</p>
<p>I know that N did want his own place. I was surprised he did not start looking for an apartment right away. However, I discovered later N had never been employed. He had no credit record and needed a parent to co sign a lease. Neither of his parents was willing to do so, which meant that he ended up living with us. Did he want to live with us? No, he did not, but it was not his choice or it was his choice depending on how you look at his lack of employment and credit record.</p>
<p>Hey OP, you took him in. Busdriver wouldn’t have. Don’t beat yourself up.</p>
<p>N never had a job, and never had even a credit card that was an extension on a parental card? And they wouldn’t sign his lease for him? Sorry, but SIL and HB sound nuttier by the minute!</p>
<p>No place to stay and you let him in, then your H gave him a job? No wonder the poor kid act like that! Why don’t HB take him home and find a job over there instead of leave the poor kid on the street 1200 miles away? What a mess…</p>
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<p>I don’t know about the boys you know…but not all of the boys in my generation or younger…myself included were “blockheads” who needed repeated reminders on the basics on HOW TO BEHAVE AS A GUEST IN SOMEONE ELSE’S HOME. </p>
<p>This type of behavior was only tolerated by one of my aunts…which resulted in her son being tossed out of a residence owned by another older relation, being persona non grata with that relation for a few years, and his parents got an earful about how he had no basic social graces despite being of adult age and they should have done a better job of raising him right. </p>
<p>Though I’ll admit being on the messy side in my own room at home and in my dorm I always made sure to confine the mess to my room and to never carry over that behavior whenever I was a guest in another person’s house. Don’t they teach kids that one should try their utmost to behave BETTER at a house where one is a guest than at one’s own home…and to do otherwise is a negative reflection on their respective characters?? </p>
<p>Moreover, I tended to be far neater than most of the men in my dorm because of two factors:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>High expectations from everyone in the family to not be a dirty slobbering pig. No adult member of my family would tolerate such behavior/manners from anyone…even if you’re a boy/man. Couldn’t believe boys who’d leave plates of half-eaten food laying around for days, dirty clothes with spilled food/condiments, food remnants on ground, or overfilled trashcans which haven’t been emptied out for months…and getting rammed by rats trying to gain entry. Thankfully…no one at my college was like that…but the above was commonplace at many mainstream universities/colleges I’ve visited…especially ones with frathouses or otherwise filled with boys who didn’t feel the need to clean and could tolerate unbelievable amounts of filth. </p></li>
<li><p>My father was living in a nation where every male was mandated to do 2 years of military service from 18 and up. That combined with many similarly aged American men of his generation and slightly younger having similar experiences and you have a large group of fathers who wouldn’t tolerate the “Boys are naturally messy” and “They need to be told over and over again”. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>And my father was quite lenient compared to what some elementary school male classmates had to deal with…particularly one whose father was a Marine drill sergeant and Vietnam War vet. Now HIS room was so well turned out you’d think he was preparing for a close inspection from the Commandant himself.</p>
<p>“busdriver11 - I read your post. I haven’t stopped crying since I read it.”</p>
<p>Okay, I know you’re mocking me. That’s fine, I’m used to it. I can’t even make my dogs cry, though God knows they ought to…seeing as when we leave they rampage through the house for food, tearing through garbage cans, opening up zippers in suitcases. </p>
<p>But what I’m trying to convey, is to look at it through someone else’s eyes. We are just here to listen dispassionately to what you say, to offer advice and perspective that you might not think about, because it is hard to look at a situation when you are right in the middle of it. Which I suspect, is why you started this thread in the first place.</p>
<p>It just seems that this situation has gone exactly as anyone would have expected. SIL wanted H to give N a job and a place to live, and act as Mommy and Daddy. Too much to expect. H wanted to live up to expectations and help his N, therefore imposing upon your personal family space during a tough time in your life. N acted like a typical young man, no better, no worse than average. This is all completely predictable. There were plenty of other options for N as far as housing goes. He could have easily done shared housing, inexpensive, no job or credit report required. My S1 did that last summer, $400/month, no commitment, rented the top floor out from an elderly lady who wanted the cash. Cheap, convenient and safe. But SIL liked the price…FREE, with supervision and companionship. She took far too much advantage and expected way too much.</p>
<p>It seems that all you need to do is figure out how to deal with this now, and from a distance, it seems simple. N has his own place, any job issues aren’t your problem (get H to not talk about it). If you want to be nice, ask him over every now and then for a family event. If you want to patch things up with SIL, when you are in her presence, make sure and say something positive (and honest) about N.</p>
<p>And cobrat…dang! Tough living there.</p>
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<p>The neighborhood elementary school classmate with Marine drill sergeant/Vietnam vet dad…yep. His room resembled something one would see at a military barracks or a military cadet’s room rather than that of a 6-12 year old boy. Everything not only has to be clean & extremely neat…but everything has to be in its proper assigned place and placed according to some weird system his dad devised if they weren’t being used in that instance. </p>
<p>My father and the family didn’t go anywhere near that extreme.</p>
<p>Cherywild I hope you have spoken with your husband and, perhaps, the therapist and things are improving.</p>
<p>Mom2M - thanks for your concern. Today was our third visit to a therapist. H spoke to his brother earlier this week. HB has agreed that an apology is needed and is in the process of writing his thoughts and feelings down.</p>
<p>Both H and I agree that SIL has lied and is not to be trusted. As far as we are concerned we will be polite to SIL at family functions, but will not interact with her beyond that. H believes his brother’s eyes have been opened to SIL’s behavior.</p>
<p>As far as nephew - N. N has been resistant at work to several suggestions regarding further training and duties that are more technical. His supervisor has told him if he continues to resist suggestions designed to enhance his career with the company N will have no career with the company. N’s supervisor is concerned with his lack of motivation and maturity.</p>
<p>H has stopped all conversations with HB about N’s job at the company. When HB asks how N is doing H tells him he should ask N how things are going.</p>
<p>Overall the situation has improved. H has listened to my concerns and understands the depth of grief and anguish this situation has caused.</p>
<p>I will wait to see what HB’s letter says, but at this point he is not the man I thought he was and I have lost respect for both him and his wife.</p>
<p>Thanks again for all of your suggestions. They were helpful and the therapist was very insightful in analyzing the family dynamics involved.</p>
<p>I have been in H’s position, and I agree with other that the key in this is him. I can’t speak of your H’s position, but I was in a similar position with my family of origin, specifically my dad’s family. With them, I was expected to bend backwards for them, there were no boundaries or reciprocation. It very much hurt my own little family (okay, my wife and I), and with his family there was just this incredible expectation that they always came first, which is perverted. Due to a number of reasons, I couldn’t say no to them and they took advantage of it. Eventually when I did set boundaries after being in therapy I did face the consequences, but I learned I could survive it (because of setting simple boundaries, putting my own little family first, I became a pariah). It saved my marriage and protected my son from their crap…</p>
<p>Your HB and SIL’s behavior is just as bad. Put it this way, most people if a family member or friend got their kid a job like that, in a rotten job climate, would be grateful and also would be helping the kid to do well at the job, not to embarass the person who got them the job, instead they dumpy it all on you, then continually nag and complain. Reminds me of something that happened to me, I spent a summer, a summer where I had little free time, tutoring a cousin in physics who had been doing lousy in college (like getting D’s and F’s), it was time I didn’t really have but I was only happy to try and help. Well, I never got as much as a thank you for doing what I did, the kid got probably the highest grade he had gotten in college (like a B+), and from what I heard his mother said something like “well, it wasn’t like he got an A or anything” (and no, folks, I wasn’t paid for my time, I never asked for it or would accept it if in the unlikely event it was offered). I would expect you will just get more of the same with them both, they will never be grateful and will probably give you the cold shoulder because you didn’t do whatever their twisted minds wanted. </p>
<p>My advice to H would be to tell him to let N have space; there is nothing wrong with mentoring him, giving advice, but there is no reason for him to do anything special for him either, at work they are simply two employees, or should be. N needs to learn that rewards come from what he does, something SIl and HB obviously never taught him, I also recommend letting his supervisor know (if H hasn’t already done this) that N is totally his responsibility, that whether N makes it or not is based on N’s performance, period. </p>
<p>I am sure HB and SIL won’t be happy, but very little would probably make them happy, and you need to have your own lives and space, this situation is a lose-lose if you try to give them what they want (kid doesn’t grow up, and you are miserable).</p>
<p>I am glad you are seeing a therapist, they can help a great deal, if they could get through to me, the original testa dura (rock head in Italian), you should be fine;</p>
<p>The only other comment I have is to forgive H for the way he seemed to cave in or whatever, one thing I learned from my stint in therapy was how powerful the programming we get growing up is, the fact that he is working on this in therapy, believe me, means he cares more about you and your family , enough to be willing to face down what may have been programmed into him, and that isn’t easy, take it from me:). I wish you guys well.</p>
<p>Cherrywild, I am glad things are improving, and that your H seems to better understand your position. And HB’s willingness to at least write “something” seems like a good sign. It doesn’t sound like you need/want to be BFFs with SIL in any case.</p>
<p>I hope good things continue to happen.</p>