<p>'Yes, of course police make mistakes and cover-ups happen. And, violent teenagers attack cops who are justified in using lethal force, too. This is not an either/or situation"</p>
<p>There are mistakes, there are people who are unethical, and those who are criminals, in law enforcement jobs. But what happened in a completely unrelated situation is…completely unrelated to this situation. What happened in this specific instance is what is relevant. </p>
<p>Here’s another example of a trigger-happy cop shooting an unarmed black man who was complying with his every order. This one too was covered up, by the cop that is, who concocted a story about feeling threatened. The department fired him when it came to light.</p>
<p>[Dashcam</a> Video Leads to Felony Charges Against Cop who Fired Several Rounds at Unarmed Man](<a href=“PINAC News | Little Brother Watching Big Brother”>PINAC News | Little Brother Watching Big Brother)</p>
<p>This case also has the benefit of a prosecutor who’s willing to charge an officer who uses excessive force.</p>
<p>I have to wonder, what could possibly be going through the mind of someone who would reach into a cop car, and struggle with the police officer for their weapon? Who, in their right mind, would do that? I can only think that someone who had a serious personality disorder, or who was on drugs would do that. That is not sane behavior, by anyone.</p>
<p>“Meanwhile we deprive the “thugs” of any chance to ever be anything other than “thugs.””</p>
<p>Really? How was Brown “forced by society” into robbing a c store and shoving the owner? He made his own choice to be a thug. Frankly that’s insulting to the many upstanding young black men in Ferguson who would never think to steal things. </p>
<p>So he deserved to die then.</p>
<p>As dustypig said, we can’t view this case in a vacuum. There is a decades-long history of the way Ferguson cops treat black citizens of Ferguson. This was a last-straw event.</p>
<p>If you truly want to understand the long and troubled history of how blacks experience policing in America, I would be happy to share some links.</p>
<p>Was he attempting to kill or injure the officer? I can’t come up with any reason to grab his weapon other than to use it. </p>
<p>And, I doubt if anyone on this thread needs a history lesson. But, this case is or should be about what happened in 90 unfortunate seconds on August 9th. We don’t prosecute people based on stats and trends. </p>
<p>@busdriver11, I’d still really like to hear whether you think that black people are inherently more violence-prone than other races. And if that’s not what you meant, I’d like to hear what it was you did mean by this:</p>
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<p>"@busdriver11, I’d still really like to hear whether you think that black people are inherently more violence-prone than other races. And if that’s not what you meant, I’d like to hear what it was you did mean by this"</p>
<p>No, I don’t think black people are more violence prone than anyone else. I do, however, want to acknowledge what is truthful, and what is not. Honest conversation is often subverted by people declaring racism. I think that young, black men, are far more likely to be involved in violent crimes than anyone else, and certainly the numbers back me up. It is my opinion that the reason for this is the disappearance of the black father. The number of children borne out of wedlock with no father figure to raise them. The love, guidance, and security of a father will be replaced by something, unfortunately too often by gangs and friends. In my opinion, that is the root of the problem.</p>
<p>For the twelfth time, no one is saying that blacks are treated well by law enforcement. We KNOW that there are “bad cases” out there. I said upthread I was horrified by the cop who shot the kid reaching for his wallet.</p>
<p>This just isn’t one of them. This case needs to be talked about on its own merits. Just because cops do stop and target law-abiding blacks unfairly in general, doesn’t mean that THIS case is an example of it. </p>
<p>“There is a decades-long history of the way Ferguson cops treat black citizens of Ferguson. This was a last-straw event.”</p>
<p>How about how some of the citizens of Ferguson treat honorable storekeepers who are trying to make a honest living? IIRC, the storekeeper was Indian. Did the Indian community protest? </p>
<p>“So he deserved to die then.”</p>
<p>He knocked over a c store and then was stupid enough to not get out of the way of a cop request, instead grabbing his gun. He made choices that reveal an incredible arrogance. </p>
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<p>A well-trained police officer would have seen 3 separate events, and responded according to EACH event. But first, if Ferguson PD practiced community policing, event #1 would have been handled far far differently, meaning events #2 and #3 would likely not have arisen.</p>
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<p>But unfortunately Ferguson PD sees the black people of Ferguson as enemy combatants, and themselves as an occupying army. So, Event #1:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Kids walk down the middle of the street. According to Wilson, he made a polite suggestion that they move to the sidewalk. According to Brown’s companion, Wilson snarled profanities. Given the long history of tension between Ferguson PD and its black resident, the snarling seems more likely. Also, given what happened next, the snarling seems far more likely, since it seems implausible to me that Brown would have lunged for Wilson’s sidearm if Wilson had been respectful. In any case, if Wilson felt it was imperative that Brown move to the sidewalk, he could have called for backup. Or spoken reasonable and respectfully. Instead, he chose to behave in a provocative way, a way which was SURE to escalate the situation rather than defuse it, by using his car to block Brown and use his car door as a way to make a point (remember, we are talking about jaywalking here.)</p></li>
<li><p>Brown lunges for Wilson’s weapon. To answer your question, yes, Brown may have been trying to kill or injure the officer at this point. If he had been killed at this point, I think it could reasonably have been seen as justified. </p></li>
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<p>But Brown emerged from Event #2 alive and – as Wilson knew – without a gun. At this stage, Wilson could still have backed off. He could have called for backup and withdrawn. He could have let his adrenaline settle a bit, and then pursued the case with a cooler head. But he allowed his rage and fear to direct the rest of the encounter.</p>
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<li> Brown flees, without a gun, and then turns to face Wilson. Given the way Wilson handled stages 1 and 2, and given the attitude of Ferguson PD toward its black residents, a shooting at this point was perhaps inevitable. If you honestly believe that the person facing you is a “demon,” a superhuman “hulk” possessed of the ability to run through bullets, then yeah, I guess you’d shoot. Of course, if you engage in that kind of magical thinking, perhaps you’re not fit to be a police officer.</li>
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<p>@busdriver11, thanks for the reply. I disagree with you about lack of father figures being the proximate cause here, but we won’t get into that now. But the point is, when you say “Do you think that the murder/violence rate of young black men may be why some police officers consider a young black man as a particular danger?” you are in essence saying that police officers are justified in profiling young black men and assuming they’re all dangerous. Don’t you see how that forces young black men into a situation where no matter what they do, they suffer?</p>
<p>Pizzagirl mentioned the “upstanding young black men of Ferguson” who would never rob a convenience store. Well, those upstanding young black men are still being racially profiled, every day. They are still treated as dangerous, threatened, wrongly accused, stopped for no reason, etc. That is not okay. And since, as I pointed out, the risks of being a police officer are actually LOWER than they were a couple of decades ago, you can’t use officers’ fear for their safety as justification for this. That would be true even if the profiling of black people by officers (and others in authority) didn’t carry the obvious risk of increasing crime and violence. There is no way in which this situation in our society is a good thing.</p>
<p>I know this thread is supposed to be about the Michael Brown case, but we can’t talk about that case without also talking about the larger societal issues. </p>
<p>The second #2 should have been #3, obviously.</p>
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<p>You missed the point, marie. Brown wasn’t killed at the point he was grabbing for the gun.</p>
<p>Police officers assume everyone is dangerous. This is not a race thing at all. It may be a high crime area thing but it makes sense that police are going to be heavier presence in areas that need more policing. And, after seeing Michael Brown’s stepfather inciting the crowd to burn down the city it’s difficult to believe that fathers don’t matter in all of this.</p>
<p>I think @busdriver11 makes a very good point in post #707 regarding the issue of role models. I think this is where young black males are at a severe disadvantage. Many do not have strong father figures in their lives and they struggle with what being a man looks like. So the typical stereotypes of aggression, challenging authority and saving face at all costs seems to be the default mode of some. That attitude seems to get them entangled with the law all too often.</p>
<p>In addition to the tragedy of Michael Brown’s death, another tragedy of Ferguson is that yet again young black males are given the message that everything that goes wrong in their lives is attributable to their race. There is never any talk of self-reflection or considering how their own actions might have contributed to the situation. So they are just stuck in this vicious cycle. </p>
<p>There are certainly cases where police officers have used excessive force and I am all for prosecuting those cases. Those types of officers need to be weeded out. But I do not see the Michael Brown case falling under that umbrella. But young black men will hear the rally cries and see the destructive protests (which have trampled on the rights of their neighbors) and think that is the correct response when an attack on a police officer doesn’t turn out well. </p>
<p>No, the correct response is to reflect on why you think it is ok to disregard the directive of a police officer who tells you to move to the sidewalk so traffic can flow. Really, if those boys had just respected that one small request, we would not be here today.</p>
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<p>You didn’t answer the question, unless you’re saying that “arrogance” is not only a death-penalty offense, but it is so heinous that we can simply dispense with the legal niceties, like a trial. </p>
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<p>And yet, it is black males who so often end up dead from these encounters.</p>
<p>Oh sorry. I didn’t miss the point at all. My reading of the evidence after the life and death struggle in the SUV (which it was) has him fatally shot as he was running toward the officer to within lunging distance of 8 - 10 feet. Now, why would he do that I wonder.</p>
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<p>People can run through bullets if they miss major organs. Having never been shot before, I would imagine it’s going to hurt but it won’t necessarily stop you. Where does Wilson assume that Brown will run through all of his bullets. He made the comment that the guy was running through the bullets because…he ran through the bullets.</p>
<p>And also the “hulk” comment (actually it was “Hulk Hogan”, a noted black wrestler apparently) did not come from racism; it came from the fact that the guy was gigantic and when they were wrestling in the car the officer was losing badly.</p>