<p>busdriver, of all the forms of election fraud you mentioned – tampering with electronic code, tampering with hardware, abusing administrative access, man-in-the-middle attack, etc. – exactly which of those would be prevented by voter ID?</p>
<p>Election fraud like the examples mentioned is NOT the same thing as voter fraud. Please cite sources for your belief that voter fraud is a widespread problem – i.e., one person actually voting in another’s name. </p>
<p>I drew a parallel which I now kind of regret where I said that we often don’t get what the big deal is until something happens to us. I had my bad state trooper and traffic judge experience which made me realize that officers sometimes do lie in court. In the last cycle some people who had previously discounted the idea that sometime legitimate voters are purged in efforts to “clean up” the rolls realized that new laws can be a real impediment to some legitimate voters. </p>
<p>It was just a comparison of civil right situations when suddenly the light bulb can go on and they are seen as common issue rather than purely race based.</p>
<p>The people perpetuating election fraud in my state are some of the same people in support of voter ID laws. In a recent election one of our most corrupt county clerks actually took home her laptop on the night of a closely contended Supreme Court election and miraculously found 7500 votes to put “her” candidate over the top. Of course, when the fraud works in favor of those who are trying to rig the system, they have no problem with it at all.</p>
<p>“Of course, when the fraud works in favor of those who are trying to rig the system, they have no problem with it at all.”</p>
<p>Exactly true.</p>
<p>“busdriver, of all the forms of election fraud you mentioned – tampering with electronic code, tampering with hardware, abusing administrative access, man-in-the-middle attack, etc. – exactly which of those would be prevented by voter ID?”</p>
<p>None of them. I didn’t say they did. In fact, what I did say was: “Though the vast majority of fraud exists from people filling out absentee ballots for others. Rigged voting machines are another one.” My responses later were to the people disbelieving that voting machines were ever rigged, or absentee ballot fraud ever happened. The concept that voter fraud or election fraud doesn’t exist is laughable.</p>
<p>Sorry for the diversion, but you know it’s all saintfan’s fault.</p>
<p>:D </p>
<p>:O) >:) :ar! ;
</p>
<p>I hate to contribute to this ongoing diversion… but voter ID laws won’t stop absentee ballot fraud either. Voter ID laws target a very specific kind of fraud that remains the smallest contributor to something that struggles to even be recognizable as a problem. And it gets there by disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of people who don’t get to vote because apparently getting a photo ID (for which they apparently have no other need) is the one kind of poll tax or test that is permissible in this country.</p>
<p>Who are these people with no need for an ID? </p>
<p>Saintfan, you troublemaker. Okay, this is my last voter fraud story, and it is my favorite. Fortunately they dropped the charges. Apparently the way they caught this lady was not because they were checking out whether her dog had a right to vote, but because she used his pawprints as his signature. All she needed was a phone bill as identification to register him to vote.</p>
<p>"Woman registers her dog to vote; prosecutors growl</p>
<p>Jane Balogh had a pretty good idea who was calling when the phone rang and the caller asked for Duncan M. MacDonald. Duncan is the dog Balogh registered as a voter seven months before the November 2006 election.</p>
<p>Duncan’s absentee-ballot envelope was signed with a picture of a paw print. “You can’t sign with a paw print,” the election worker told Balogh on Nov. 9. "I said, ‘he can if he’s a dog,’ " answered Balogh, a 66-year-old grandmother and Army veteran who lives in Federal Way.The election worker told her a supervisor would call, but she never heard from anyone.</p>
<p>After making her point — how easy it is for a voter to register illegally — Balogh will be arraigned in King County Superior Court on Tuesday on a misdemeanor charge of making a false statement to a public official.
If she declines to plead guilty, prosecutors told her in a letter this week, they will file a felony charge of providing false information on a voter-registration application. She doesn’t plan to contest the misdemeanor: “I’m not going to claim to be innocent when I know I’m guilty.”</p>
<p>Balogh’s crime was signing Duncan’s name on a registration card under a declaration that he meets all the requirements to vote. She submitted ballots in his name in the September and November 2006 and May 2007 elections. She wrote “VOID” on the ballots, and didn’t cast any votes.</p>
<p>Balogh, who lives with Duncan, an Australian shepherd-terrier mix, and four other dogs and four cats, registered her dog as a protest of a 2005 state voter-registration statute that she says makes it too easy for noncitizens to vote. She put her phone bill in Duncan’s name, then used the phone bill as identification to register him as a voter.</p>
<p>“I wasn’t trying to do anything fraudulent. I was trying to prove that our system is flawed. So I got myself in trouble,” she says.</p>
<p>If she accepts the plea deal offered by prosecutors, they won’t ask for jail time but will recommend she be sentenced to 10 hours of community service, pay a $250 fine and commit no other crimes for a year.</p>
<p>Acting Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg says his office “can’t simply look the other way. They say you should let sleeping dogs lie, but you can’t let voting dogs vote.” </p>
<p>We have gone over this, marie. </p>
<p>People who don’t travel by air or rent cars or drive at all.</p>
<p>People who never buy alcohol.</p>
<p>People who never buy firearms.</p>
<p>People who never buy sudafed.</p>
<p>Elderly people who just haven’t needed it for anything, including voting.</p>
<p>Poor people who can’t afford ANYTHING “optional” that comes with a fee and that they’ve never needed before.</p>
<p>While we are still off in the weeds . . . when my FIL died 2 year ago we submitted his death certificate to Met Life who recorded his death and paid out on his life insurance policy. Guess what . . . he still gets mail from them about his policy. Their data base still hasn’t figured out that when you pay off a policy due to death the person is dead and no longer needs to get statements. Group Health still sends plan information to my dead MIL. I imagine that happens with trying to stop ballots as well. The wheels turn slowly. I also imagine that if a person passes away the day before the election and had strong feelings their spouse might feel moved to record that vote if they hadn’t already sent their ballot. That is technically fraud but not related to proving identity when registering. It is a good thing to have clean voter rolls and to not have dead people listed. The presence of dead people on the rolls does not mean that they are fraudulent only that data bases are hard to keep clean. When I changed my name and moved my permanent address from my parent’s house I continued to get absentee ballots at their house. It took some doing to make them stop. No fraud occurred and I never availed myself of the chance to vote a second time. However, this past year in Florida and Georgia giant voter dumps took place. Many of those dropped from the rolls were people who were legitimate voters and were then tasked with jumping through all the challenge hoops to get back on. If you are unused to having your civil rights violated and suddenly find yourself turned away at the polls after an erroneous voter purge you might suddenly know how disenfranchisement feels. </p>
<p>Now for a funny data base story. Out of the blue somehow about 2 years ago I started getting cans of Enfamil in the mail for my new baby (the one who is 6’2" 180 lbs). I got envelopes full of coupons and invitations to join the Gerber grow up plan. Hmmmmmm. Then, last month just after Babykins turned 18 a package came fro him in the mail that said “Happy 18th Birthday!” It was a fancy Dyson-like razor from Proctor and Gamble. They know and yet they don’t know. He is using the razor and really likes it. He didn’t sample the formula. I’m just waiting for the AARP cards to start arriving if we’re on some kind of accelerated time line.</p>
<p>Yes, well regarding poor people if you want to call them that you can’t get benefits without providing identification and filling out forms and sitting in government offices for hours so that crosses off anyone with a SNAP card or subsidized housing or disability or welfare payments. The elderly usually need medication of some sort and don’t forget cigarettes on that list of things that require an ID. Hundreds of thousands of employed people have no need for identification ever and can’t find a way to get to the DMV. Hmmm. Okay. </p>
<p>@busdriver, can’t argue with that. ;)</p>
<p>Not that easy. As I said earlier - I have the good fortune to live about 2 miles from the DOL about 1 from the DMV and about 3 from the emissions testing place. I am linking the drivers license office map for the state of Washington. THe entire city of Seattle shows 3 DOL locations. It isn’t that easy if you live in the city and depend on mass transit. How about those in rural areas . . . same thing. It’s super easy for ME to do it. In fact when Saintkid needed his permit he bussed to the office and I met him there at lunch. Yep - easy as pie for us with cars and regular bus lines in upscale suburbia. I can’t extrapolate from that to assume that everyone is as fortunate as we are, though. </p>
<p><a href=“WA State Licensing: Driver licensing office locations”>WA State Licensing: Office locations;
<p>Well, I’ve been to DMV’s in many major cities for various reasons and the crowds were decidedly not upscale at most of them. But, this is quite the tangential issue. </p>
<p>So you are assuming based on people looking not “upscale” that they are poor? But yet able to afford DMV fees?</p>
<p>The logic here is sort of astonishing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“Voter ID laws: Why do minorities lack ID to show at the polls?”>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html</a></p>
<p>No, that’s a twisted misunderstanding of my point. I do dispute the fact that minorities can’t figure out how to get ID’s and I agree with whomever it was upthread that suggested it was incredibly demeaning to minorities to suggest such a thing. </p>
<p>Not saying that I support voter ID laws, but how does anyone navigate the health care system without some form of government ID? I get that a lot of people don’t drive, but don’t most people at some point need to interface with a hospital or clinic at some point? I am ALWAYS asked for my driver’s license when accessing health care. Of course, I have one, so I’ve never needed to see what would happen if I said I didn’t have any form of government ID.</p>
<p>Sigh. </p>
<p>marie, it’s not about whether minorities can “figure out how to get ID’s.” It’s that many minorities are POOR, and poor people, especially in cities, can get by without IDs.</p>
<p>It’s really pretty simple if you try to understand it.</p>
<p>Nrdsb4, I have NEVER been asked for my ID when seeking healthcare in any of the states I have lived in as an adult (FL, IL, WI). And that includes picking up prescriptions, either at a clinic or Walgreen’s.</p>
<p>"Though the vast majority of fraud exists from people filling out absentee ballots for others. </p>
<p>“The concept that voter fraud or election fraud doesn’t exist is laughable.”</p>
<p>Where is your proof of this? You keep saying it but, except for the one case you cited, nothing to back of your claim. </p>
<p>Give me the stats on the number of voter fraud and election fraud that have been found and the number of convictions stemming from those acts.</p>
<p>If it is as widespread as you seem to believe it should be very easy for you to find the stats. </p>
<p>I will post what the stats I have found. </p>
<p>And for context there are 146,311,000 registered voters in the US and 206,072,000 eligible voters in the US. </p>
<p><a href=“Who Can Vote? - A News21 2012 National Project”>http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud/</a></p>
<p><a href=“Who Can Vote? - A News21 2012 National Project”>http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud-explainer/index.html</a></p>
<p>Unless you consider 2000 cases to be widespread, I look forward to the information you have that proves your assertion. </p>