<p>DD was fired from her job a week ago. It was her first post grad job. Wthout going onto detail, her manager was awful. DD admits she wasn’t perfect but did at least as well as her coworkers. She didnt want to leave the company and spoke with a supervisor in another department which had a position open. Before she could tell her manager that she spoke with this other person, her manager found out and told her she was being disrespectful to her workgroup and wasn’t a team player. The manager upped her negative behavior towards DD, took away good assignments and gave her every bad one in the department. Now she’s been fired. The manager told her there was nothing specific, she just expected her performance to be at a higher level and just that she didn’t see her having a future with the company. I cant imagine what she said that got that through HR. In our company you need LOADS of evidence and warnings to fire people,but I guess that’s not the case everywhere. I’m worried that they will block unemployment and then how will she pay her bills?</p>
<p>DD had contacted a recruiter and had an interview a few weeks ago. It got down to 2 people and the other person got the job. The recruiter set her up for another interview tomorrow.
How does she explain something like this? The paperwork asks about current employment dates and if the manager can be contacted now or only if there is to be an offer. When should she tell the recruiter? How can she explain this in an interview.</p>
<p>I am turning gray over this mess but DD is relieved that she doesn’t have to deal with this woman. HELP!!</p>
<p>First let me say that I am sorry for your daughter. I also don’t think it would be best to not be truthful when it comes to future interviews. She shouldn’t place the blame on the woman who fired her , or suggest that she wasn’t treated fairly. If questioned in a future interview , she might just asnswer something along the lines of " it wasn’t a great fit for either of us "…keeping it light. If she has other references that might shine a more favorable light on her, whether it be an internship or other job , use them.
It isn’t going to be the end of the world for her and she will bounce back
if anything, hopefully she will have learned some workplace rules, silent or not to let her know when to keep quiet , and when to speak out.
I don’t think there is a person out there in the workforce who hasn’t had an awful supervisor to deal with
She will be okay :)</p>
<p>My heart goes out to your DD, Mumzee. The same thing happened to me 26 years ago under slightly different circumstances. My first manager was OK, but the women I worked with were “feminists” who ganged up on the young, attractive newcomer like a bunch of junior high cheerleaders. I was too young and stupid to know how to handle it and I was a miserable anxious mess. My manager changed my work assignment and there was some improvement (also, one of the “mean girls” changed jobs), but then I made a mistake involving someone outside the company who complained. My emotional reserves were very low by this time and I plunged into a clinical depression. Meanwhile my manager was transferred and the new one and I took an immediate dislike to each other. I didn’t want to be a “quitter” so I stuck it out for 18 months until something just snapped. I was looking for another job and to move back to my hometown when I was finally let go. It was a horrifying experience but I have to admit I grew up a lot. I went straight into graduate school in a totally different field so I didn’t have to do much explaining to employers about leaving my job. My advice to your DD is don’t tell future employers any more than they want to know. Don’t volunteer information that they don’t specifically ask for, but if asked a direct question, don’t lie. I’d rather lose out on a job honestly than have something come back to bite me in the butt. (And I ended up marrying the guy I was dating when I was fired right out of graduate school and we’re still together - when God (or fate, or whatever you want to call it) closes a door, a window is opened.)</p>
<p>She doesn’t need to say anything unless asked directly. When asked she says exactly what you told us if it’s truthful: things weren’t working out, she was in the process of talking to a supervisor in a different department about transferring and she was let go before she could line that up. (and then stop talking.) She’s not required to allow anyone to contact her manager. The hiring firm can confirm her dates of employment with companies, but nothing ‘requires’ people to talk to the former manager." Think about it, people switch jobs while currently employed and say “no” to the question “can we contact your manager.” I know I certainly have done that with all but one of my job switches. Also some larger companies have rules that say managers can not give phone references and must refer those inquiries to HR.</p>
<p>If she was newer on the job she may have been on “probation”…many companies have a period of time where they can let you go without much fanfare during this period of time. I’ve experienced companies where that period of time was 3 months and I’ve worked for a company where that period of time was a year. Generally it’s all in the employee handbook.</p>
<p>I’m sure she leaned alot and it’s a awful feeling I’m sure for both of you. In the long run she’ll be OK. Hopefully her unemployment will kick in (she should call right away as in many states it’s retroactive to the date of termination but it takes a while to get in the system.)</p>
<p>Some times being fired is a good thing. You learn your life lesson that way and bring more resilience to your next job. We really cannot judge who is right and who is wrong at this moment other than feel sorry for your DD. Anyway, no one can avoid being fired and you or your DD should take it at a stride. Regarding the references and unemployement, I think all the above posts have answered the questions.</p>
<p>One thing your DD should NOT do in her next interview is to bad mouth her former employer, whether it is the supervisor or the company</p>
<p>Your daughter needs to find out why she was fired - was it due to elimination of the job or was it due to cause. If she was fired due to elimination of the job then she should be entitled to a severance, unused vacation pay, and she may even be vested on 401K company matched portion. She would also be eligible for unemployment. If she was let go for cause, there is usually a standard procedure a company needs to follow. If it was due to performance, then it should have been properly documented and she should have been put on a performance improvement plan. Another word, she shouldn’t be surprised with the outcome. If she doesn’t agree with the cause, she should challenge it. Don’t walk away with nothing, everything is negotiable.</p>
<p>As far as with future employment. She can tell them that it was not a good fit and they decided to part their ways. A lot of peope lose jobs, she really doesn’t need to go into great detail. It is also ok to tell future employers that she doesn’t want them to contact her old manager. If the new employer wants reference, she doesn’t need to use her old manager, she could use her co-worker, old professor, or a different manager.</p>
<p>Strongly second these points. Sometimes, you can even challenge an unjustified bad performance review or even a firing if you have sufficient documentation/witnesses. </p>
<p>A political appointee had it in for an older friend working in a state agency and tried to fabricate a completely bogus negative performance review that could have jeopardized his job even if it was unionized due to the severe cutbacks the state was making to his and adjacent agencies. Fortunately, my friend not only had more than a decades worth of stellar performance reviews from that appointee’s predecessors, but also witnesses and documentary evidence that the her accusations of lackluster productivity and screwing up were completely fabricated. </p>
<p>Upon elevating it above that appointee and getting the union steward involved according to proper procedures, he not only got that negative performance review overturned and assurances that further performance reviews will be done by her superior…the incident also eventually factored in HER eventual dismissal within a matter of weeks.</p>
<p>Depending on the state she most likely works “at will”, meaning she can quit at any time for any reason, she can be let go at any time for any reason.</p>
<p>I interview for my company all the time. I am quite aware that most people get fired at one point in their lives. What is an enormous red flag is when the person is really bitter and speaks badly about their previous boss, or like happened to me a month ago - a person actually cried to me about being fired. However, taking responsibility, reflecting on how she should have handled it and talking about the lesson learned for the future would show real maturity. I always ask why someone left their previous positions. Someone who honestly says it wasn’t a good fit and I was let go, and here’s what I’d do differently now would impress me.</p>
<p>Unless she lists someone as a personal reference, all a company is allowed to do is confirm dates of employment and if they are eligible to be re-hired. I’ve fired people and never ever give thumbs down to anyone calling for a reference, even the worst people on the planet because the person can sue you if you sink their chances at another job.</p>
<p>She likely can get paid for any unused paid days off, and if has her insurance coverage needs to contact HR about how to get cobra on the insurance.</p>
<p>She will never be told after the fact the reason for termination. In my state you can only be denied unemployment for gross misconduct. Just not being good at your job isn’t a reason to be denied unemployment.</p>
<p>Sorry this happened, mumzee. How long was she ont he job? If it was a brief time, it might be worth not putting it on her resume. In this economy its understandable that it takes a while to find a job, and she would obviously not want to use this manager as a reference.</p>
<p>Most companies need to be very careful with discrimination lawsuits, even though it is employment at will, they need to document as to why someone is fired. Many companies are also very sensitive to conduct of managers (bullying at work), the days when an employee could be let go because the manager didn’t like him/her is long gone. It is not to say, a manager couldn’t systematically make an employee look bad so there could be cause. Whenever we want to let someone go, we would need to sit with legal and compliance to make sure there is no violation to any labor law. We can’t let someone go at any time for any reason. Most of the time, “elimination of position” or downsizing is the easiest reason, but often we lose the headcount if that’s the case. Many managers transfer bad performing employees out of their department, so they become someone else’s problem. HR always tell managers that they are not allowed to give out any information about an employee (current or past), except for start/end dates and position.</p>
<p>When I was 8 months pregnant and a civil service employee yet to be “confirmed” through exam (which comes up on its own schedule, so you spend a lot of time being provisional) I was asked to resign or be fired the day after I submitted my request for maternity leave. My boss said it was too much trouble. He then asked me to train the new hire, when they found her/him. My husband and I chose to have me resign, since it kept our health benefits (you could get unemployment, but not keep your healthcare for 6 months, if you were fired) My union steward said that as a provisional employee, I could be “fired for tying your shoes wrong”. I will say in all honesty, 25+ years later it still makes me mad. </p>
<p>Anyway, your daughter doesn’t need to do anything she doesn’t want to. It’s okay for her to just walk away, and say as little as possible, as suggested. I mostly want to say that her shock, shame, and anger will go on for quite a while, prob in that order. It is a terrible, humiliating, often unfair thing to be fired and no amount of “the boss is a jerk” will take that away. Maybe she can talk to HR, but it would be okay for her to not want to do that. No amount of indignation or righteous (and deserved) disbelief will change the decision, or make the company sorry. Be supportive of what she wants to do, and try not to push for one decision or another. (I called my dad in tears – he said “Sue the bastards. Or walk away. We love you no matter what”)</p>
<p>By speaking with HR is not going to get the decision reversed, but it may get your D payments and benefits she deserves. Most young employees do not understand their rights. Many managers do not know their boundary, often need to be educated (or slapped) by HR and legal on what they are allowed to do.</p>
<p>Thank you all so much for your kind words and advice. She had been there almost 2 years and it is her only experience in this industry. The company has a code of conduct which seems to pretty much have been ignored by the manager. Although she is relieved to be far away from this manager, she is angry and is writing a letter to the VP that covers that department. I agree that it wouldn’t get her job back but she is concerned about her coworkers that remain. She is nervous about today’s interview and was practicing how to get through the “why aren’t you there” question.
I’m taking this harder than she is. I was a bit weepy and she looked me in the eye and said “Mom, I did a good job. I have my freedom. I don’t have to go to work and be made to feel worthless.” My siblings and their kids are all superachievers. We’re not. I’m hoping that no one finds out. We used to play a game when going to family events, “how soon til we get a snarky comment” None of them helped when she was looking for a job after graduation and I’d never hear the end of it if she tried to network through any of them now. I don’t need the pity.</p>
<p>mumzee - Did she get a proper severance? Including Cobra? Two years is not a short period of time. </p>
<p>Our kids will get fired many times in their life time. There is no shame in it, and it is best they learn to speak up and learn how to negotiate with HR when it happens. One thing to remember is no company wants to get sued. It would usually cost them more to go into litigation than to pay up for someone to go away.</p>
<p>I would advise your daughter to have a meeting with the HR instead of writing to the VP. If your D’s manager acted inapprorpriated, it will go on his record, enough of complaint from people, he will be let go at some point. Don’t write anything in anger. I also don’t think your D should put anything down on paper, speak with HR face to face (her VP could forward the letter to other people). Any written communication from your D to her old company would be best coming from a lawyer.</p>
<p>Agree that 2 years is a long time (congrats) and if this is a big enough company that has an HR department, she should definitely ask for an exit interview and be sure she protects her rights. She doesn’t want to have it documented that she was fired for cause (eg insubordination or failure to follow company policy or whatever might qualify as “for cause”) because she should protect her right to file for unemployment during the interim. I also agree that she should be sure to get whatever she is entitled to (unused sick time, bonus, severence, cobra benefits, etc). Keep us posted, and hope she gets the new opportunity soon!</p>
<p>There is no mess, just apply to many places every single day, do not underestimate local newspaper. I have been unemployed 9 times, have very negative experiecs with recruiters and found most of my jobs (maybe 6 out of 9) from local newspaper ads (including my very first job right after college with no experience). If your D. does not have dependents then there is no big deal at all. I am talking about having kids and loosing your job. She should be just fine, something better is in her future, for sure. Look positively, it does not sound like she belonged where she used to be anyway.</p>
<p>OP: recommend your daughter check-in w/HR department, if it exists, and reread her employee manual, if that exists. Most midsized and larger firms have both, as well as a formal policy for reviewing employees, advising employees in writing for deficient performance, and termination policies. Seems either this manager didn’t follow company policy, or perhaps it wasn’t included in OP post. Certain steps should have occurred before she was fired. HR usually likes to know via exit interview if there’s a problem manager, because they’re usually held accountable for their actions as part of litigation avoidance policies. </p>
<p>Most work environments include some sour interpersonal politics and managers who’ve sometimes have difficulty managing their staff. Some managers are poor people managers, whether due to poor communication or people skills. Most mid-career folks have experienced at least one terrible boss or work situation.</p>
<p>Years ago I worked at a firm for eight years before I left for a much better position, feeling under-appreciated after no significant promotions despite a stellar work record on difficult projects and chairman’s pet projects. Environment had undermined my confidence, with me feeling the problem was ME. Soon after I left, I ran into another woman who left firm year before me, who asked if I was suing for sex descrimination too. She told me that six women had already filed suits over prior four years (for a 60 person firm). I didn’t, but later was commended by other senior management people for having survived that firm for so long. (Senior management turnover was very high too.)</p>
<p>Though almost everyone is fired/terminated/laid-off at some time in their career, and experienced terrible bosses, we’re advised not to discuss it in the job interview process. Key is to remain positive in interview, to note “management change” for reason to leave (except for cause such as theft, etc), talk about positive experience elements of that prior job, and keep looking forward.</p>
<p>If relatives are negative or nonsupportive “achievers”, perhaps it’s time to reduce their influence by reducing visits, and limiting conversations to nonconsequential topics.</p>
<p>I must second OldFort – writing a letter to the VP is not a good idea. Making sure that she gets what she’s entitled to from the old company by contacting HR is the way to go.</p>
<p>There is no shame in a job not turning out to be a good fit. She seems to have the right attitude about it and will turn out fine.</p>