<p>This afternoon I was driving S2 to an activity and somehow failed to notice a red light. I did notice a car that was entering the intersection, and I braked and stopped a fair distance from the other car. There was not a near-collision. I then looked up and saw the red light. Behind the other car was a police car. I have no idea how this happened; I am a very careful driver. I think that I must have been distracted by conversation with S2, thinking of other things, and my attention lapsed. I feel very guilty about it!</p>
<p>The police officer gave me a ticket, and then started explaining how to arrange to fight it. I said something like, I will plead guilty, of course. But later I started wondering why he seemed to assume that I would go to court. I looked around on the web and saw all sorts of advice never to plead guilty to a ticket, and stories of people fighting their n-th DWI, and winning. </p>
<p>I have been able to determine that if I plead guilty, there will be 3 points put on my licence (a “virgin” license up to now!) I can’t tell what the fine will be, or how much my insurance rates will rise. I don’t know whether I should hire one of those lawyers who advertises.</p>
<p>Personally I’d think of the example you want to set for your son who was in the car with you. You made a mistake. You didn’t mean to, but you did. Own up to it and accept the consequences which is what you’d want him to do.</p>
<p>I also think hiring a lawyer would cost you more than whatever the fine will be. Even with the hike in insurance.</p>
<p>Is your court date in a local town court? In that case, I would show up in court and point out that it is your first ever offense. The judge is likely to allow you to plead guilty to a lower point violation. No need for a lawyer (I think they would wonder why you had a lawyer!) I don’t think (but don’t know for sure) that the 3 points alone will impact your insurance rate, but if you were to receive another ticket in the next 2 or 3 years, then your insurance is very likely to go up.</p>
<p>Since you are obviously an honorable person, I think that you would find it hard to go to court and fight the ticket if it meant you had to lie. If you want to go to court, explain, admit guilt, and plead for mercy in hopes that the judge will give you a lesser fine/fewer points, that might be worth it. I wouldn’t hire a lawyer in this case.</p>
<p>My H was recently ticketed in NY for a violation that he did not commit. (Basically, he made a left hand turn from a side street onto a major road, and the policeman apparently didn’t like the angle of his turn and accused him of driving on the wrong side of the road for some yardage that I can’t recall. H said he didn’t do it, and I believe him.) When the notice of preliminary hearing arrived, the offense had somehow been transformed to driving on the wrong side of a limited access highway! Not only was he not on the wrong side, but the road was not a limited access highway at all. He happened to be able to be in the same area on that day and went to court to fight it. The judge listened to his explanation and threw it out completely, since the citation did not reflect the circumstances at all.</p>
<p>Before that, he was offered some kind of a deal by a sergeant at a desk outside the court. The sergeant said it would be fewer points on his license, but then realized that since he was not from NY it was irrelevant. It could help you, though, so it might be worth your while to go.</p>
<p>It would be understandable to plead guilty because you realize you did make a mistake (although you realized your mistake in time to prevent endangering anyone else), but the reality of the situation is that this will definitely cause your insurance to increase.</p>
<p>I’ve heard that if you plead not guilty and go to court you can often get the violation reduced, if not erased. You don’t need a lawyer. For instance, it might be changed to a standing violation rather than a moving violation, so you would only have one point on your license rather than 3. This is especially possible if you have been driving for a long time with no records. I would say to take the chance and go to court. I know my mom did this once (although she believed she was in the right) and the officer simply didn’t show up (had more important cases to attend to I guess) and the case was automatically thrown out and her ticket erased. Apparently this isn’t uncommon.</p>
<p>Yes, if the ticketing officer is not in the courtroom, the ticket is thrown out. Maybe this is why he was “hinting” at you how to fight it. </p>
<p>It sounds like you made a mistake, caught it just in time, and are not guilty of a flagrant violation. Maybe the policeman felt obligated to give you the ticket, but won’t bother to show up in court that day. If not, the judge could reduce the amount of fine and/or the number of points anyway.</p>
<p>Thank you all for the comments. You are right, consolation, that lying is absolutely out of the question. </p>
<p>I spoke to a local lawyer who specializes in this and advertises on the web. He was very nice and straightforward. He told me that I didn’t really need him, that if I went to court there would be a good chance that the points would be reduced or the ticket even dismissed (as some of you are saying). I asked how I could plead “not guilty” when I did what I am charged with, and he said that pleading not guilty is not lying (is this true?), that it was up to the court to prove that I did what they said I did. He said that pleading guilty was giving away my rights. If he represents me, there is a flat fee that is reasonable. He said that the most likely outcome is that the whole thing would go away, not because I am innocent, but because they know that it will be difficult to get a conviction if he is involved. He recently got a similar case dismissed because the policeman was on the other road (looking at the green light) and this is not enough to prove that the light is red the other way. This is exactly the situation I was in. </p>
<p>He did not know what the fine would be if I just paid it (and I would not know until after I send in the ticket with a guilty plea); he does not plead guilty so has no experience with this. He did not think it was likely that my insurance rates would be increased after only one violation in many years.</p>
<p>To be honest, I am afraid to go to court. I feel guilty enough already. So I am deciding between paying whatever the ticket is, and risking the insurance rate increase, or paying this nice lawyer to take care of it (I would not even have to go to court; if I did, I wouldn’t consider hiring him).</p>
<p>Going to court is well worth it. You speak with an ADA who will offer you a plea down then you see the judge and are done. It is very routine and worth the time depending on the day a couple of hours or more. I was one to just pay but if you get a second ticket in 18 months the pts add up and insurance can increase. We also had a lawyer handle a speeding ticket DS (20y/o) got and it was well worth the downgrade in pts.</p>
<p>In your state do they allow you to attend driving school for this first ticket and have the ticket struck from your record - hence no insurance hit?</p>
<p>I’ve been to traffic court before (a long time ago) and the judge had everyone’s driving record in front of him and if it was the first offense and nothing terrible and if the person was not obnoxious, he’d usually reduce the fine at least.</p>
<p>Regarding the pleading of not guilty - I hear you and I’d be the same way as you. I suppose if you want to twist it you could plead not guilty because you in fact never saw a red light before entering the intersection - it’s just the word of others that it was red. You don’t really know for certain whether you were guilty or not since you never saw the red light so pleading guilty would be no more accurate than pleading not guilty. What do you think??</p>
<p>In our local traffic court (NJ) they will defer the case if the officer does not show up. No more getting off that way. You can plead guilty to a lesser offense, and perhaps no points, but you will pay for the ticket and court costs, which they are happy to have, and IMHO this is the whole point for the ticket - revenue raising. By the way, I personally do not think it is “lying” to plead guilty to a lesser charge. In any charge it is the state’s burden to prove you are guilty, not your burden to prove innocence.</p>
<p>I recently got a ticket for going right on red (in NJ) after stopping at a light. I did not see the sign that said no right on red, and coming from another direction the same intersection has no such sign. There was no traffic, no danger, no problem. The officer also said you can plead not guilty - that I believe is part of informing you of your constitutional rights and no reflection on the ticket or its merits. JMO. They are out like flies in most of the towns around here to raise money since the state cut aid to these towns.</p>
<p>Fight it. The insurance rates go up, and hiring a lawyer will be cheaper than the insurance increase. One of my friends has a DUI, one has fleeing the scene of an accident, both are 4 points and their rates went up pretty significantly. A friend of mine has a couple of speeding tickets and his insurance is expensive. It will take 3 years for those points to go away and it will stay on your insurance record. Another friend of mine got a speeding ticket, hired a lawyer for $300 and didn’t get any points. I received a citation when I was pulled over for speeding, so I didn’t get any points. I didn’t fight it, but I had no incentive to challenge it. If it were for points, I would fight it because my rates are already high because I’m under 25.</p>
<p>3 points is a lot consider a DUI and DWI are 4.</p>
<p>I’d vote go to court (and don’t lie) … the officer may not show, the judge may reduce the charge, the judge may offer “driving school” instead of a conviction … and I’d guess one of these 3 is more likely than a conviction at the original charge … if it is convenient I’d definately go to court (Judge, I did run the light … and then tell the story you told us in the original post).</p>
<p>NYMomof2,
You DO NOT need a lawyer. Look at the ticket on both sides. On the back is there something called “request for a supporting deposition?” If so, check off the box that requests it. Plead “not guilty.” Send the ticket back and wait for a court date. There is simply no reason for a first time offender to plead guilty to the original charge. Take a breath, go to court when you are supposed to, explain what happened and “throw yourself on the mercy of the court.” Your insurance rates will be glad you did. You are not lying to your son. You didn’t commit a felony. You accidentally “started” to run a red light. You didn’t.</p>
<p>(If you aren’t furnished with a supporting deposition-it gives more details of what you are charged with-within 30 days, the court is supposed to dismiss the ticket. It’s not cheating. It’s the law.)</p>
<p>Pleading not guilty is not lying, even if you know that you committed the crime. It simply means that you are exercising your right to make the prosecution prove its case against you.</p>
<p>If you take it to court, you are requesting the officer to show up. If he does, he will be spending his time in court rather than patrolling the streets helping keep crime levels in check.</p>
<p>It’s a personal decision if you would rather the officer be on the street protecting the citizens of your city or in court testifying what he witnessed you doing.</p>
<p>How much is the ticket? I once had to pay a hefty $90 about 14-15 years ago. The light was changing and there were 4-5 of us running through the light. The first car was off the hook but the others all got the ticket including me. My insurance didn’t go up but it was long ago. I wouldn’t know what it will be like these days.</p>
<p>I don’t have any suggetion to OP. Just wondering how the total cost compare; OP’s ticket and possible insurance increase vs the cost associated processing if OP contests, officer’s time, judge’s time, etc. Would the total cost far exceeds the ticket?</p>
<p>bigtrees,
The officer will be coming to court for this case in addition to tons of others. NYMomof2’s case is not keeping him from protecting her streets. They schedule each officers’ cases for one day. The officers like to be in court because they often make overtime. ;)</p>
<p>We’ve had about 10 of these “bad people who break traffic laws and then set bad examples by trying to get out of the ticket” threads.</p>
<p>Either go to court yourself and stress first violation and get defensive driving/fewer points or get the lawyer to handle it. It is appropriate and expected to do whatever you can to preserve your insurance rates and your driving record. This is not rocket science. You are not a threat to society and you are not harming the well-being on NYC by dragging your officer to court.</p>
<p>Thank you for all the suggestions. momof3sons, I do have a place on the back to request a supporting deposition, and i will do that. I suppose that if I get the deposition and have a court date assigned, I still have the option to hire the lawyer then? The appeal of hiring the lawyer is that I would not have to go to court. I hadn’t realized before yesterday how horrified I am at the prospect of going to court as the “accused”!</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking about this, and I don’t believe that 3 points is fair for what I did, especially since DWI is 4 points! I was easily able to stop when I saw the other car start to enter the intersection (so I was not completely unaware of my surroundings), and I didn’t even come close to that car. After I’d stopped, I looked up and then saw the red light. So I hadn’t even gone halfway through the intersection, I’d only started to enter it. I realize that I did do something wrong, but it is not as bad as completely “running a red light.” So if I do go to court, I would think there would be a good chance that the judge would reduce the penalty.</p>
<p>I have no idea how much the ticket costs. The way it works is that I have to send the ticket in and fill out the pleading guilty section, then they will send me a bill. I also don’t know whether my insurance rates will go up (and I know better than to call and ask!) My insurance company is exceptionally good and may not raise the rates. So I don’t know how much my costs will be if I just pay the ticket and possibly insurance increases. </p>
<p>If I hire the lawyer, I can be pretty sure that the whole thing will be dismissed. He recently got a very similar case dismissed because the officer could only see the green light in the other direction (exactly what happened in my case, the policeman’s car was behind the car that entered the intersection). Apparently, seeing a green light in one direction is not legally sufficient evidence that the light was red in the other direction. Of course, if asked I would have to say that the light was red in my direction - but then, I didn’t see it until after I stopped because I didn’t see the light at all before that. I have to go that way again today, and I will check for branches, etc., obscuring the light, but I don’t think there are any. I looked when I went through it yesterday from the other direction, and things looked clear.</p>
<p>NYMomof2,
Since you have never been to court, I can understand your apprehension, but this isn’t Law & Order. This is local traffic court, probably with a part-time judge, and you will get a chance to see the other “miscreants” from your neighborhood. It will be fun. What makes you think that you won’t have to go to court just because you hire the lawyer?</p>
<p>I say “forget the lawyer” and just go explain what happened. If you get a court date a couple of months or so down the road, you should have received the supporting deposition way before that, within 30 days from your request as required by law. If you haven’t received it, you can go into court and tell/show the judge you checked the box (keep a copy of both sides of the ticket!) and that “someone told you” that if you haven’t received it, that the court would dismiss the case.</p>
<p>The worst that will happen is that the judge (or someone from the local prosecutor’s office or the cop-don’t know exactly how your local jurisdiction works) will agree to a reduction of the charges to some sort of non-moving violation and you will have to pay a fine and might get a point or two on your record.</p>
Your insurance rates will be glad you did. You are not lying to your son. You didn’t commit a felony. You accidentally “started” to run a red light. You didn’t.</p>
This is local traffic court, probably with a part-time judge, and you will get a chance to see the other “miscreants” from your neighborhood.