For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is ‘God’s Foreign Policy’

[lealdragon]

<p>SS: I just realized that I used your quote about the ‘lapsed Catholics’ question, but I was actually answering Allmusic’s post #169. Yes, you did make your point clear. I was just expressing my own opinion since I am in the category of someone who was once Catholic. Sorry. No offense intended!</p>

<p>“sjmom simply said that the Hoily Trinity is introduced to very young children & most are not confused by this. She suggested it was improper instruction that accounted for CGM’s confusion.:”</p>

<p>You are right. I concede. I interpreted sjmom’s statement as suggesting that maybe cgm might not have left the church if she’d had the proper understanding. Maybe that’s a bit of defensiveness on my part. I was trying to show that even with complete understanding, some people might have reasons to leave the church. But, again, you are right – I read more into that than was there. Again, sorry.</p>

<p>“…In all fairness, I don’t recall any Catholic ever proselytizing to me. I’ve never heard ANY Catholic tell me I was going to ‘hell’ since I left the church. At most, there might have been some mild concern, but they were accepting of my choice…So, although I still do not agree with the Catholic dogma (or any other religious dogma, since I am against dogma in general) I would have to say that most of my horrible experiences with Catholicism were as a child. I honestly cannot think of a single incident in which a Catholic has been even slightly pushy towards me in recent years…”</p>

<p>The above is a quote from me, in an attempt to show that I still do see GOOD in Catholicism. I also said in an earlier post that I have retained some of my beliefs, such as a basic belief in God and some of the values that I was taught as a child. </p>

<p>Yet now I am being told that I am bigoted and spewing ‘anti-Catholic’ venom???</p>

<p>Here’s news for you, hereshoping: Bigots do not try to see the GOOD in the people they are bigoted against. Bigots against Blacks tend to say nothing but nasty things about Blacks, Bigots against gays say nasty things about gays…there is a bigot at work who thinks ALL Iraqis should be shot…he cannot even conceive of the idea that some of them might actually be wonderful people who are just caught in a bad situation. </p>

<p>THAT’s bigotry!</p>

<p>I am extremely offended at being labeled a bigot just because I have shared some of my bad experiences with Catholicism. I even went out of my way to distinguish between Catholics and the institution itself. I disagree with you that there is no distinction. There is. I also clarified that most of the negative experiences I had with Catholicism were as a child, and the church “has come a long way” since then.</p>

<p>Bigots don’t give credit to the good. I have given a LOT of credit to Catholics.</p>

<p>I also pointed out that most of the negative experiences in recent years were NOT with Catholics at all, but with the born-again evangelicals. Even then, if you were to read all of my posts, including those in other threads about this same topic, I give credit to the GOOD in evangelical Christianity. Most especially, I admire them for being willing to “drop everything and pray” when you tell them you have a problem. I gave the example of how I’ve rarely seen any New Agers do that. I actually consider myself more New Age than anything else (though I don’t truly identify with ANY label) yet I am the first to admit that MANY New Agers are rather smug and aren’t as compassionate as many Christians I’ve known. I also gave the example of a very dear friend of mine who is a born-again Christian and wow is she ever the real deal – a kinder, more loving person I’ve never met.</p>

<p>These are just GENERALIZATIONS based on MY personal experiences. These statements are in NO WAY intended to be directed towards ALL Christians or ALL Catholics.</p>

<p>It is a generalization in much the same way that saying a child born to crack-addicted parents may have some challenges unique to his/her situation, or that rape victims MAY have some emotional trauma to deal with. Likewise, people in organized religions are TAUGHT that they must believe a certain way. It just goes with the territory.</p>

<p>My entire point all along has been to raise the idea of the VALUE of QUESTIONING one’s faith rather than just blindly accepting it.</p>

<p>You want to believe the bible is the word of God? OK, fine. I am proposing that to be open to the idea that others have valid reasons for not accepting it as such, is a fruitful endeavor. Understanding others’ viewpoints is something that is crucially important if we are to coexist on this planet. </p>

<p>So, I was sharing some of my experiences in an attempt to explain why I feel as I do; why I have chosen to reject organized religions. I was hoping that if there could be some understanding, maybe Christians wouldn’t be so quick to judge.</p>

<p>It is the attitude of judgment that I find dangerous. Getting a dialog going and being willing to see all sides to an issue (as I have attempted to do) is not the same as blindly and unequivocally judging someone (as evangelical Christians often do).</p>

[golani89]

<p>The problem with CGM, is that her attitude of openmindedness and not being judgemental does not extend to religion, esp christianity. It is hard to take her seriously after critizing Haggard for what he did in privacy, and then accusing the people that attend his churhc of being gay haters. She will obviously go on some tirade about how Haggard was a public figure, but she cant get through her head that Haggard did not have a homosexual relationship in public, he had it in private, yet she attacked his faith and his religiosity, and told him what he should do.</p>

<p>Maybe it we who are imperfect, and CGM is a perfect human being who has never made mistakes in her life, but most of us will often say its wrong to lie, only turn the other way to that advice and lie ourselves, but if you are a deeply religious Christian or Jew and you do something like that she attacks you.</p>

<p>In lealdragon I see a personal distance from the Church, but do not really see resentment or hate towards religious people, whereas CGM clearly detests the religious and thinks she is better than them.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>golani, yes we all make mistakes. But there is a difference between making mistakes and then criticizing others for making the very same ‘mistakes’ we just made. It’s called hypocrisy.</p>

[golani89]

<p>How often have you crisized lying, and yet you probably lied hundreds of times. Everyone is hypocrite to a certain extent. Haggard genuinely believed homosexuality was wrong and he said it, unfortunately he was not able to beat out his own evil inclination and beat homosexuality. Haggard, did this in private, and he never felt what he was doing was right. And its not fair to attack him because of it. This is his religious, personal life. But again CGM only extends this curtesy to secular liberals.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>sj: The key word here is ‘predisposition.’ I did not intend to imply that my sister’s schizophrenia was ONLY a result of abuse. Of course there had to be a genetic predisposition. But, there are often cases of 2 people with the same predisposition and one gets the disease and the other doesn’t. That is a know phenomenon. It’s like 2 people with high cholesterol: 1 is under a lot of stress and the other isn’t - it’s an accepted fact that the person with more stress has a higher risk of succumbing to the predisposition. So, I am questioning whether the abuse might have pushed my sister over the edge.</p>

<p>I have a friend with a predisposition towards schizophrenia. Her mom is schizophrenic and she was told as a teen (if I remember correctly) that she had a predisposition towards it too. But it did not manifest until she was in her 40s when her breast implants leaked and her body became very toxic. Right around the time she got the breast implants, she also did a lot of acid. And, on top of that, she had an abortion which she later regretted, and fell into a deep depression. It is within the realm of reason to surmise that either one or maybe all of those might have been a factor in pushing her over the edge, from predisposition to manifestation.</p>

<p>Science acknowledges that there are many other factors in illness besides the physical. Not all are explained yet, but it is acknowledged that they exist. Studies have shown that people undergoing cancer therapies are more likely to be healed if they have a positive attitude, for example. That is well documented.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>"How often have you crisized lying, and yet you probably lied hundreds of times. "</p>

<p>Sure. But I am not actively campaigning to enact legislation against people who occasionally lie.</p>

<p>And, when I see someone else lying, I try to remind myself that they probably had a reason. That doesn’t make it right, but it does help to have compassion.</p>

<p>Jesus is quoted as saying that we should remove the beam out of our own eyes before criticizing the splinter in another’s, and he who is without sin should cast the first stone.</p>

<p>It’s not the fact that this guy ‘sinned’ (if you believe it to be a sin) but the fact that organized religion SUPPORTS the very idea of pastors going around criticizing splinters in other people’s eyes.</p>

<p>I don’t care if this guy had a beam in his eye. I don’t even care that he made the mistake of criticizing others’ splinters. It is the fact that the church openly accepts as GOOD the idea of their pastors judging those splinters.</p>

<p>It has to do with compassion. It’s like bush, who,when confronted with his college cocaine use, referred to it as a ‘youthful indiscretion.’ Then he pushed for stricter penalties for first-time drug offenders.</p>

<p>The issue is NOT that he did himself what he thinks is wrong. The issue is that there is no compassion for others who have made the same mistake. And, the bigger issue is that even this is a major tenet of Christianity, even though Jesus explicity was against it. It is the very idea that it’s ok to judge others, that it is supported by the church, that I find wrong.</p>

<p>I can understand that individual pastors will make mistakes. But the churches as a whole support the casting of jugement against gays, against the ‘unsaved’ etc. and THAT is what I find hypocritical.</p>

[golani89]

<p>I would be careful CGM might attack you for the part about the women having an abortion being in depression.</p>

[golani89]

<p>Haggard di not actively campaign against people being gay. In fact haggard did not even actively campaign to keep a gay person from getting married. All Haggard actively campaigned for was to keep two people of the same sex to marry. That is a distinction. As for compassion, many people against homosexuality are very compassionate. They always ready to pray for the person, ready to help him overcome it. Bush never admited to cocains use in the first place, and Bush may really feel that those stricter penalties are better. Lets assume he did try cocaine. He then knows how bad it is, and he may even think that had that penalty existed before it would have helped him. But that is not the issue. The issue is why people cannot extend courtesy to the religious. They also make mistakes, and they feel just as bad about their mistakes as seculars do.</p>

[hereshoping]

<p><bigots do=“” not=“” try=“” to=“” see=“” the=“” good=“” in=“” people=“” they=“” are=“” bigoted=“” against.=“”></bigots></p>

<p>“Why, some of my best friends are Catholic!” “Sure, most of them follow a medieval, dogmatic, anti-women, gay-bashing, repressive religion, but not all of them!” “Some of them do believe in abortion and gay and women’s rights!” “Sure, there are corrupt, degenerate popes, and sexually repressed nuns, and pedophile priests, but the church has come a long way in a lot of ways!” “Even though the religion is wrong on most issues, and should take the plank out of its own eye before it judges others, I still don’t have a problem with it if people want to follow it, even though I’m a recovering Catholic myself!”</p>

<p>You’re the one judging here, babe.</p>

[hereshoping]

<p>“Some of my best friends are black!” “Sure, most of them are lazy and shiftless, but some of them are quite bright, actually!” “I’ve even known a few who went on to college!” “Sure, most of the black community’s officials are corrupt and not very bright, but the black leadership has come a long way in a lot of ways!” “Even though most of them are, um, you know, I still don’t have a problem with them.” “I try to see a lot of good in the black community, too.”</p>

<p>Bigot or not? You decide.</p>

[citygirlsmom]

<p>wow, lots of talk about ME…I feel special</p>

<p>As for the Trinity, I got proper instruction…believe me…but for those that wonder, here you go:</p>

<p>from the Catholic Encylopeadia:</p>

<p>In the unity of the Godhead, there are three Persons, the Father, the son and th Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct from one anther. Thus in the words of the Athanasian Creed: 'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet, there are not three Gods but one".</p>

<p>Call it what you will</p>

<p>You have no idea where I am on my religious life path, and it is funny, when i ask simple questions about a book that has been the guide book for so many, the source of many wars, the excuse to do bad, that the book is inconsistent…it is okay I don’t need anyone’s approval, as others here seem to</p>

<p>It is intersting that for Bush, it was a youth indescretion, but in his mind, for others, they get jail time…that is the hypocrisy</p>

<p>and golani89- wow, about the abortion- that was a mighty leap to the woman being depressed because of the abortion, you ignore all those other issues, didn’t you…the thought process is bit skewed…couldn’t have been the predisposition, the other mental issues, the toxins in the body, or the rest? </p>

<p>When one uses logic like yours, reality is lost- yours is like, most people that had car accidents drank coffee, so its the coffees fault…so ban coffee…</p>

<p>You world must be very interesting</p>

<p>Glad to the topic of such speculation</p>

<p>goalni89- tell, me have you ever studied the bible? really studied it? have you ever studied other religions? ever been to another service? ever read Houstan Smith or others? ever read anything that disagreed with your thoughts?</p>

<p>For instance, I have read Anne Coulter…just to see what she was saying…I have read others with whom I disagree…</p>

<p>So go ahead, keep trying to figure me out</p>

<p>toodles</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“Even though the religion is wrong on most issues, and should take the plank out of its own eye before it judges others, I still don’t have a problem with it if people want to follow it, even though I’m a recovering Catholic myself!”</p>

<p>You continue to twist my words and misinterpret my points.</p>

<p>You continue to insist that I am speaking of individual people, but I am speaking of ideologies and concepts. I provide examples of what individuals have done only to illustrate my points about those ideologies and concepts.</p>

<p>To call someone a bigot because they disagree with ideologies and concepts of an entity such as a government, corporation, religion, or other organization is completely simple-minded and narrow-minded.</p>

<p>Please quit flinging insults and try to comprehend what I’m saying with some efforts at love and understanding (Christian concepts). Why is it so hard for you to see me as a person who has different experiences than you’ve had, and try to just have a bit of compassion for my own experiences, instead of right away lumping me in with people who truly do juge entire segments of the population.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“I would be careful CGM might attack you for the part about the women having an abortion being in depression.”</p>

<p>Again, twisting my words. I listed her abortion as but ONE of MANY factors. I did NOT say that ALL women who have abortions get depressed. Many women have abortions with no ill effects whatsoever. Many others do have emotional and/or physical issues as a result. My friend was one of the latter. She deeply regretted having had the abortion when she found herself too old to ever have a child, and lonely with no family, and bedridden because of her many illnesses that all manifested suddenly. She went from a very beautiful, active woman to bedridden in a few short months.</p>

<p>I would NEVER be so presumptuous to say that all of this was because of the abortion. It was only one of many POSSIBLE factors. Whether it was a factor at all, and how much of a factor it was, I have no way of knowing. What I do know is that she told me she was depressed about it. My point is that it is a known fact that depression, regardless of its cause, is a factor in lowering one’s resistance to various illnesses, therefore turning a predisposition into a manifestation of that illness.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“…attitude of openmindedness and not being judgemental does not extend to religion, esp christianity.”</p>

<p>Not true. Openmindedness just does not extend to accepting injustices, judgmentalism, elitism, and bigotry. It is THOSE ASPECTS of organized religion in general that I am questioning and, yes, criticizing.</p>

<p>Tolerance: to be tolerant of everything except intolerance. To be tolerant of intolerance is not tolerance but hypocrisy.</p>

<p>It is the same with corruption in politics. You saying we don’t accept Christianity is like saying someone doesn’t accept Capitalism just because they point out that there are greed and corruption within Capitalism.</p>

<p>Please try to separate the concepts we are referring to from the constructs in which they are found.</p>

[golani89]

<p>Well you people often attack religion on homosexuality for example. Like CGM said before that Haggards congregation hated homosexuals. Where?how?when? She essentially made all of that up. I dont see much bigotry in religion if you ask me. Its interesting how religious people are not stopping gay people from marrying, they just do not want people that are the same sex marrying. Thats not bigotry. Then dont forget to take into account that the religious are not the only ones that do not want same sex marriage</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“religious people are not stopping gay people from marrying, they just do not want people that are the same sex marrying.”</p>

<p>duh, gay people are only interested in marrying people of the same sex, so it is essentially the same. They are being denied the right to marry the person they love, a right that heterosexuals have.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>Actually, I do acknowledge that there are myriad issues connected with the gay marriage question that go beyond simple rights. I personally believe that people should have the right to do whatever they want, as long as it does not infringe upon someone else’s rights. One person’s rights end where another’s begins.</p>

<p>That’s why I can understand why both gay marriage and abortion are controversial: gay marriage because the issue of children comes up (which really is a non-issue, since gays can ALREADY adopt children, and duh, there won’t be any biological children from gay unions unless there is medical assistance)…and abortion because the question has not been answered by science as to exactly when the fetus becomes a baby human (at conception? at birth? at x number of weeks?) so it ends up being a conflict between the rights of the baby vs the rights of the woman.</p>

<p>Very grey areas, indeed.</p>

<p>It is more than just the gay marriage issue that I find offense with, though, in the case of the evangelicals. It is the stance of thinking that they have the right to decide who goes to ‘hell’ or not, and then base political decisions on that.</p>

<p>I don’t care if they think a gay person or a Pagan or whatever goes to ‘hell’ - that is their perogative - but when they work to enact legislation that limits the rights of others BASED ON those beliefs, that’s when it gets sticky.</p>

<p>For example (un-oh, hh implies that I am not allowed to give examples cuz that makes me a bigot) FOR EXAMPLE: I’ve heard evangelicals (see, I am distinguishing these particular individuals from Catholics) support the Iraq war because all the Iraqis are ‘going to ‘hell’ anyway.’ I’ve also heard the same thing said about not supporting AIDS research because gays are ‘going to hell anyway.’</p>

<p>This sort of radical, narrow thinking DOES affect us all, because once they get some of their laws in, others follow. Soon, who is left?</p>

<p>“…Then they came for me, and by then there was no one left to speak up…”</p>

[golani89]

<p>You are right, only gay people want to marry the same sex, but if you really think about that it has nothing to do with gay people, per se, but more about a marriage of 2 people of the same sex. If for whatever reason to best friends, 2 straight best friends, wanted to marry to get benefits, I would say no. I know its a ridiculous situation, but thats the crux of the issue. Gay marriage is not about homosexuals or hetero sexuals its about marriage being for a man and a woman. I might also add that marriage is not a right for everyone. Its a holy and special privelage for people who want to start a family, because thats what marriage is really about. Its not about financial benefits. If gays want financial benefits, by all means let them have it, but then let me and my friend have financial benefits too. Then let me and my 3 girlfriends have financial benefits too. Where do you stop the contract for financial benefits? Or do you stop it all? But because I feel this way, it does not make me a gay hater. That is what CGM does not understand. I have nothing against gay people. My religion, Judaism, does not say we should have a hate against gay people. As far as I know either does Christianity. CGM called Haggards congregation a bunch of gay haters and Haggard a gay basher. It sure a nice rallying call for secular bigots like her, but it lacks substance. She hates religion simple as that, and this is her way to attack it. Calling christians gay haters makes Christians sound bad, it discredits there ideas and actions, but the fact is its just not true.</p>

<p>And by the way what do we say about 2/3 evangelicals voting democrat?</p>

[hereshoping]

<p>Who is coming for you, lealdragon? Who are “they?”
You will not accept the fact that religion and government are separate, but that in this country it is acceptable for a person’s religion to <em>inform</em> and <em>influence</em> their beliefs about government.
You do not like the Catholic church’s or the evangelical movement’s stance on gay rights. Pure and simple.
You and cgm have a problem with Catholicism because it is influencing people to vote against an issue you believe people should have–the rights of same-sex couples to marry.
You can’t discuss the issue simply by the merits by leaving out religion because you know religion informs people’s beliefs.
By attacking the church you are attempting to thwart the democratic process in this country.
You know as long as large numbers of the population are conservative Christian, there is little chance gay marriage, and other liberal issues, will be approved.
Therefore you attack religion (most especially Catholics and evangelicals–two of the most powerful forces against gay marriage), hoping that if you continue to mock it long enough you can destroy it.
I almost sympathize with you and cgm, because you do have a little problem here.
It’s almost funny how you and cgm maintain this wounded facade, as if anyone here has EVER attacked your right to your own beliefs. Absolutely no one has, and yet you feel entitled to attack the “concepts” of religion, as you call them.
I bet you don’t have as much of a problem with these same “concepts” when they are a part of liberal Christian churches, ones which have approved ordination of women, abortion rights, gay clergy and gay marriage, for instance. I bet cgm doesn’t have as big of a problem with the same Christian Bible, when it is used in those churches.</p>

<p>Btw, you and cgm are not the only posters guilty of attempting to use this tactic.</p>

[alwaysamom]

<p>If marriage is “a holy and special privelage (sic) for people who want to start a family, because thats what marriage is really about. Its not about financial benefits”, then perhaps we should advocate eliminating any type of benefit that is strictly for married couples, financial or otherwise.</p>