<p>Yeah, the ethnic variety is part of the appeal, I think. The position of saints in our church, with patron saints for different countries, plus the sacred icons & artwork of various cultures, is critical to the universality. The ethnic traditions often are associated with particular saints beloved by different cultures & nationalities throughout the Catholic world.</p>
<p>let me end this with this thought:</p>
<p>what goes on with a person and their God is their business, how they practice, now they talk, if they go or don’t go to synagoue, if they stop using cars at sundown on Fridays, if they are gay and a born again, that is what that person does and is and not mine, nor anybody elses is business…however, if the person is preacher, that person is in a different sphere, by choice and well, if they are using the world to get out a message, and that media, if you fail in your public duties by being dishonest, covering it up, you will get fallout…and that is not being hypocritical…that is seeing the difference</p>
<p>so tata, off to do my volunteer work, and if you have the interest to read a book that is very good, but at the same time, you willnot want to read, let me know</p>
<p>I have read lots of books about religion, from the “faith and belief” side, so if you dare to read something that doesn’t agree with you, see if you can </p>
<p>It wouldn’t be right to discuss religion without knowing about it, so I do learn as much as i can</p>
<p>We have a morman channel here, I watch periodically…</p>
<p>As for humanism, even if you don’t agree with it, it does focus on the living, taking care of the here and now, and less on death…and I find that refreshing</p>
<p>Stickershock, as a “lapsed” catholic, I find that many Catholic teachings are cnufused about the Trinity…and many see Cathoiics as believing in three Gods…as well, are Saints “godlike” if they have the power to answer prayers?</p>
<p>These are questions I struggled with…and I became a Cathoilic as an adult…I could ask questions about many other religions, but having studied Catholsism, these were my personal “questions” that just couldn’t be 'explained"- and it wasn’t because it was Catholic…it was because the bible was not consistent, and one bible was not that same as another, and when I started reading more aobut how the bible was put together, especially the New Testement, it made me wonder how much of the bible was religion,how much was politics, how much was culture, how much was race, how much was stories, how much was changed to suit the times…that is not ridicule, that is called thinking</p>
<p>As well, the gospels say different things, and were Adam and Eve the first people?</p>
<p>When you say I ridicule the bible, again I do not, I question the source, the interpretations (of which there are hundreds) and the hypocritical teachings (try explaing the horrid popes to your 5th grader)</p>
<p>So toodles, for sure, but if anyone wants to check out this book, I will read one of yours…</p>
<p>for those who think we shouldn’t worry about religion and politics:</p>
<p><a href=“http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/17/inhofe-hoax/[/url]”>http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/17/inhofe-hoax/</a></p>
<p>Inhofe: Don’t Worry About Global Warming Because ‘God’s Still Up There’
In an interview with Fox and Friends this morning, outgoing Chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works James Inhofe (R-OK) argued that the current wave of unprecedented warming is due to “natural changes.” “God’s still up there,” Inhofe said, and to the extent there is warming going on, it is “due to the sun.” He added, “George Soros, the Hollywood elitists, the far left environmentalists on the committee that I chair — all of them want us to believe the science is settled and it’s not.”</p>
<p>Yeah, but I have never read one person ask your opinion of the Bible, cgm. And yet you condemn evangelicals for proselytizing. I’d be willing to bet there were some pretty “horrid” men in the humanist movement, also. It’s called “human nature.” I also would not assume that because you could not reconcile the religion in your mind, that others are not “thinkers” because they have done so. Ask Scalia, Roberts and Alieto whether or not they consider themselves “thinkers.”</p>
<p>
Well, we don’t. I can’t control how others see the Catholic position. I don’t find any confusion in our teachings on the Holy Trinity. As for woshiping saints, Catholics do not. We honor and venerate them. Adoration is for God alone. If these positions are ones you struggled with & this caused you to leave the Catholic Church, that is your perogative. It does not mean that thoughtful, inquisitive Catholics have not rectified their own curiosity or confusion about Church doctrine satisfactorily and chosen to remain faithful. </p>
<p>I don’t recall saying that you ridiculed the Bible. I’ve never been instructed by any priest or nun to take the OT stories literally, so I don’t. Yet I don’t have a problem if others do, as long as they don’t change my kids’ science curriculum to include Intelligent Design or refute the theory of evolution. That’s still a much less dangerous threat than the jihad called for by radical Islamists, IMHO. </p>
<p>I do think you have ridiculed other faiths because you do not share their beliefs. Really, some of your comments are equivalent in vitriol to the Jack Chick phamplets. Again, I get the impression that you feel any practicing Catholic could not have possibly delved into their church tenets deeply & remained Catholic. That’s just nonsense.</p>
<p>HH: Don’t forget Kennedy & Thomas. Five Catholics on the Court & the Pope hasn’t been installed in the White House yet.</p>
<p>
From what I remember, the teachings about the Holy Trinity are presented in first or second grade in Catholic CCD or Catholic schools. I don’t think many Catholics, who have received proper instruction, would be confused on this point. I wonder if you feel that you had adequate instruction, CGM? Like anything else, if one doesn’t understand the fundamentals of a topic, it can be confusing. Either way, you sound like a person who really cares about others, and I know that you spend time offering thoughtful advice on CC. I just wish it wasn’t about Catholicism. :)</p>
<p>In defense of cgm, I think it’s presumptuous to assume that she left the Catholic church because she wasn’t indoctrinated properly at an early age. I was brought up Catholic and quite thoroughly indoctrinated by both my parents and by 6 years of being taught by nuns at Catholic school, and I left the church and never looked back. It wasn’t for lack of understanding; it was because I rejected their teachings. Well, not all of them. I retained some basic beliefs. But I rejected the idea of having to belong to some religion in order to reach God.</p>
<p>In all fairness, I think the Catholic church has come a long way. They are MUCH more reasonable than they used to be. When I was a kid, it was quite ‘fire and brimstone.’ Very, very creepy! They seem a lot nicer now. I even took my son to a Christmas Mass about 15 years ago, so that he could experience it (we exposed him to various religions as part of an eclectic spiritual upbringing) and found it rather nice. (I wouldn’t go back, though.)</p>
<p>In all fairness, I don’t recall any Catholic ever proselytizing to me. I’ve never heard ANY Catholic tell me I was going to ‘hell’ since I left the church. At most, there might have been some mild concern, but they were accepting of my choice. (My dad surely wouldn’t be so accepting if he were still alive, but he was old school Catholic.) However, I have had a number of born-again evangelicals tell me that. First they praised me for leaving the ‘cult’ (Catholic church) then they condemned me for also leaving the born-again religion.</p>
<p>I find it amusing that they don’t make the connection that I left both for the same reasons: limited beliefs and elitism.</p>
<p>So, although I still do not agree with the Catholic dogma (or any other religious dogma, since I am against dogma in general) I would have to say that most of my horrible experiences with Catholicism were as a child. I honestly cannot think of a single incident in which a Catholic has been even slightly pushy towards me in recent years. I can’t think of any incidents involving pushy Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, either. As compared to dozens of incidents by evangelicals. </p>
<p>I live in a large city that has plenty of all of the above. It’s home to Hagee; but that’s only 1 among many huge born-again churches.</p>
<p>Another question, if your last name is Levin or Cohen you are always a Jew even if you are not committed to your faith, right?Even if they say they are not a Jew, a Levin or Cohen always is, right? The bit about Jewishness being a birthright, I’ve heard that before, that sounds right to me.</p>
<p>Yes, I 've never had a Catholic proselytlize to me ever. My mother was a Catholic but was excomunicated when she married my father who was divorced. She always resented that very much. She would never go back to the church as a result of it.</p>
<p>Here’s something interesting. I am doing quite a bit or genealogical research about my family and being a Presbyterian was VERY important to Scots in the 18th century. The Reformation was EXTREMELY important to people in the UK and Europe. Very very interesting history there. Really worth learning about, the Reformation, power of the Catholic Chruch, how it came about the Jews rose in power in Europe and subsequent terrible things that happened to them for becoming powerful. Leaning aobut the past explains so much about the present.</p>
<p>“Are lapsed Catholics still Catholic? I believe they are, because the Church still considers them to be. We’re all sinners in need of God’s forgiveness. I’d have to research it, but is it true that a Catholic is a Catholic until he renounces his faith?”</p>
<p>I most definitely do NOT consider myself a Catholic! Haven’t for 25 years. And I could not care less what the leader of the Catholic church thinks I am. That’s between God & me and none of anyone else’s business. See, that’s one of the main things I reject about religion: humans try to decide the fate of other humans’ souls. I find that idea laughable! Especially when they can’t even detect their church’s hypocrites in their very midst - what business do they have presuming to know the fate of people not even in their church?</p>
<p>My hubby and I sometimes joke about being ‘recovering Catholics’ in much the same way as one might say ‘recovering alcoholics.’ Since we were both raised Catholic and both rejected it (before we met each other) we have an understanding of what we went thru and what we rejected. Neither of us has any regrets whatsoever.</p>
<p>“Most Christian events were created or adjusted to blend in with Pagan rituals”</p>
<p>VERY TRUE! The Christmas tree, the Easter bunny, gift giving, egg hunting, mistletoe, and lots of other traditions are Pagan in origin. Jesus was not born on Dec 25. That date was chosen to coincide with the Winter Solstice. </p>
<p>Any Pagans in the forum?</p>
<p>“There are certain religious rituals and practices which are meaningless to YOU because you do not practice a religion that believes in a higher power, and you personally do not have faith in a higher power.”</p>
<p>I know this was directed at cgm, not at me, but because I agree with so much of what cgm has said, I guess I rather identified with it. I would like to point out that just because someone has rejected religion does not necessarily mean that they don’t believe in a higher power. In my own case, I most definitely do NOT want an organized religion in my life (and I raised my son without it), but I most definitely DO believe in God (and raised my son WITH a belief in God, that embraces the good points in many of the world’s religions without the dogma).</p>
<p>I don’t know much about the label ‘humanist’ because I’m not one, but I do know that there are many, many people who reject religion but embrace the concept of God. It’s just that their concept of God is different.</p>
<p>“I would be VERY upset if any teacher told my kid, or ANY other kid, they were going to hell, just to be clear.”</p>
<p>My dad told my siblings and me we’d go to ‘hell’ if we didn’t obey. The nuns told my sister that. She used to pray in church while all the other kids were at recess, because she was so terrified of going to ‘hell.’</p>
<p>All the way thru school, starting in 1st grade.</p>
<p>She ended up being schizophrenic. I’d always wondered if there were a connection.</p>
<p>Can some Christian please explain to me how God could send most of his creation to eternal suffering if he’s supposed to be so loving, so good, so merciful?</p>
<p>Please, spare me the ‘Well we don’t understand God’s way.’ I’ve heard that a million times.</p>
<p>Honestly, could YOU send a Buddhist, a Pagan, a Humanist, a lapsed Catholic, a Mormon, even a messed up drug addict who killed someone, to a place of eternal torment FOREVER?</p>
<p>Seriously, think about it for a minute.</p>
<p>Well, don’t you think God, who created us, has just a bit more LOVE and COMPASSION than YOU do?</p>
<p>Don’t you think maybe, just maybe, God might have been smart enough to come up with a way for EVERYONE to go to ‘heaven?’</p>
<p>(Other than being smart enough or lucky enough to choose the ‘right’ religion.)</p>
<p>I find the whole idea of only an elite ‘few’ being saved (whether born-again, Catholic, or whatever) and the rest burning in a place of torment forEVER, the whole premise, the very idea of such a place existing at ALL… illogical, cruel, and absurd. I think if I, a mere human, find it such, then God much be smarter than I am, and surely must have a better plan than that.</p>
<p>I’m more interested in finding God where I believe God exists…in consciousness. All the great avatars, such as Jesus and Buddha and Yogananda, indicated that God is to be found WITHIN. </p>
<p>If God is ALIVE, then why must we depend on some BOOK? </p>
<p>It is NOT a rejection of faith to reject the bible - it is a different kind of faith - a faith in the LIVING God instead of blind faith in what a human said about what another group of humans wrote.</p>
<p>lealdragon: You shouldn’t let organized religion interfere with your relationship with God. You can pray any time and God’s listening. You don’t have to pray in a group or feel desfensive or justify why you feel as you do about a denomination. As it was with my mother there was so much hurt involved with her experiences with the Catholic Church she would get very emotional and angry whenever discussing religion. It was a real awakening with her to realize she could have a personal relationship with God without the church. I guess she was, born again.</p>
<p>Thanks, backhand. That’s exactly my belief. I have no problem at all with not having a religion, and I’m not defending it - just trying to explain it, as you have just done. My faith is actually stronger now, and my comprehension much deeper, than when I was part of a religion.</p>
<p>Those questions in my last post were not so much for myself as just intended to be thought-provoking for those who limit themselves to a particular dogma. (Again, I respect their choice to do that; those questions were just an invitation to consider some other ideas.)</p>
<p>Thanks for understanding!</p>
<p>Crusades, anyone? Jerusalem’s a busy place!</p>
<p>^ I was answering the OP.</p>
<p>Maybe I should get in on this discussion? Am I allowed to even if I am not a parent?</p>
<p>I am constantly struggling with my faith, Catholicism. I find it hard to believe in something that is so regressive and counter to women’s freedom of choice (abortion) and science (stem cell research). Also, a lot of religions, not just Catholicism, have become so instiutionalized and mired down in bureaucracies that it has lost so much of the spiritual element, at least in my opinion. </p>
<p>Another issue for me with religion has been the questioning. I find it frustrating that some things just cannot be explained, as one poster pointed out above. For instance, how could Abraham have been saved if Christ had not died yet? How could God kill so many people in the Old Testament? How could God have created the world in seven days? I finally decided to stop looking for logic in faith, and that was liberating for me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Lealdragon, did you read the second half of my statement? Obviously not. If you’ve renounced your faith, so be it. Nobody is trying to insist you are still Catholic. That was in response to a question about “lapsed” Catholics who’ve been less than vigilant about practicing for a variety of reasons, very different from former Catholics who want no part of the faith, which you seem to be.</p>
<p>
Nobody said that!
CGM brought up confusion about the Holy Trinity, among other things:
sjmom simply said that the Hoily Trinity is introduced to very young children & most are not confused by this. She suggested it was improper instruction that accounted for CGM’s confusion.:
</p>
<p>It is CGM who said one of the reasons she left the church was confusion and inability to answer questions about doctrine. sjmom was speaking about one topic of confusion only. No offense was intended, I am sure.</p>
<p>lealdragon and cgm don’t have to worry about being called “lapsed Catholics.” They have thoroughly repudiated the religion, one in favor of humanism and one in favor of “spirituality” (if I understand correctly), so they would in no way be designated as such.</p>
<p>What I have a problem with is their need to spew anti-Catholic venom (sorry, folks, that’s what it is) on this board.</p>
<p>You see, many of our most tolerant citizens (in their minds) are the most bigoted toward the “dogma” of established religion. In the case of Catholicism, they feel free to attack the “institution” of the Church, as if this attack has nothing to do with the actual human beings who follow the religion. Actually, it does. In addition, continually recounting anti-Catholic anecdotal horror stories and stereotypes is one of the mainstays of bigotry. Are the stereotypical nun stories (to which we have recently added the “pedophile priest”) that much different from the avaricious Jewish moneylender stereotype or the black tap dancer, watermelon eating stereotype? </p>
<p>There are plenty of liberal religions and “roads to spirituality” open to you out there. Why can’t you leave Catholics alone to worship as they please.</p>
<p>As Stickershock said, I was simply asking CGM if she felt that she was given enough information to understand the Catholic faith. From the many comments she has made, I think she probably did not get all the information she would need to fully participate in the faith. That’s not an insult to her. </p>
<p>As far as schizophrenia is concerned, I would like to suggest that many, if not most, mental illnesses have a biological origin. It’s unfair and inaccurate to suggest that one’s social or religious life can cause this devastating disorder. In my mind, it’s similar to the way “cold mothers” were blamed for autistic children. It’s a dysfunction in the way the brain works.
<a href=“http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/nimh/causes.asp[/url]”>http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/nimh/causes.asp</a> In several publications, there have been scans of normal and schizophrenic brains – there are clear differences. </p>
<p>There are probably any number of things that people can blame on religion – schizophrenia is just not one of them.</p>