<p>No, CGM, this is my quote:
Not meant to be rude. Didn’t it seem out of place in the context of this thread? I thought so.</p>
<p>no, when someone tells you how to practice your religion, I find that rude, so the person was angry</p>
<p>it was actually a breath of fresh air…all this piousness about who knows what, what practice is “right”, etc gets tedious as no one really knows </p>
<p>what, I have jewish friends who eat pork…I have catholic friends who use birth control, I know born-agains who party hearty</p>
<p>I am reading the most amazing book about religion, power, hypocracy…</p>
<p>Anyway, the f word doesn’t bother me so much</p>
<p>THere are much worse things said in the name of religion than that</p>
<p>May I suggest another book for you, cgm? Perhaps a good mystery story? Barbara Vine is very good.</p>
<p>I think zoosermom’s experience points to an interesting phenomenon, which is the number - hopefully small, but there nonetheless - of people whose strong religious beliefs are not backed up by a similarly strong knowledge of the dogma of the religion in which they believe. </p>
<p>When I was young and (more) foolish, my favorite bar game was to ask what the Immaculate Conception was, pick up my beer, and sip quietly as I watched the fur fly. It always amazed me how few people got it right, but how many people were willing to argue passionately through three beers about it.</p>
<p>“It always amazed me how few people got it right, but how many people were willing to argue passionately through three beers about it.”</p>
<p>Hayden, I bet those people are teaching religion at my daughter’s school!</p>
<p>Hayden, I think that’s because the Catholic Church, over 2000 years, has developed a fairly complex dogma. Unless one receives a really good religious education, there are probably a lot of things that are misunderstood. Sunday Mass is not a traditional venue for religious education – that’s supposed to happen in the home, through CCD or through Catholic education. But for some people who practice the faith, their religious ed may have ended in grade school. That’s one of the reasons we opted for religious schools for our kids – we wanted them to have a really strong grounding in the teachings of our faith. What they do with that is up to them. (But they’d better do a good job with my future grandchildren! :D)</p>
<p>As I said before, there are many, many non-religious Jews, who are so connected through history, cultural experience, etc. that they see themselves only as Jews, not as agnostics, or any other sort of non-believer.</p>
<p>One can’t compare lapsed Catholics (I know a few of these) and non-religious Jews. There is not a “culture” behind Catholicism, and there is behind Judaism, which is what makes it simply untrue that an unreligious Jew is not a Jew. </p>
<p>(They are, just not religous ones ;))</p>
<p>Right, Allmusic. The very definition of catholic is universal & all-inclusive. Many, many cultures. Probably the only example of an adoption of a Catholic culture is in the US, where the Catholic Church was basically transported lock, stock, and barrel from Ireland. The hierarchy is still largely Irish in ancestry. The Jewish cultural/religious/ethnic connection can be confusing to non-Jews like me. I probably am still not fully understanding it.</p>
<p>But SS, do you think one can be a lapsed Catholic, and still considered Catholic? </p>
<p>From my own lapsed Catholic friends, I’d say they don’t define themselves as Catholic, whereas lapsed, or unreligious Jews still will say they are Jewish.</p>
<p>I don’t know if I agree that there isn’t a culture behind Catholicism. Think of “Nunsense”, Sister whatshername on Saturday Night Live, “The Trouble with Angels”, “The Sound of Music.” At least for those of us who attended Catholic schools, there really is a common experience, which makes for a culture.</p>
<p>I know a lot of people who don’t attend mass, or follow the teachings of Catholicism, yet who consider themselves to be Catholic. I’ve actually thought that Catholicism and Judaism are two faiths you almost have to be born into, in order to understand.</p>
<p>Oh, I think the nun stories alone contribute to a culture, absolutely!</p>
<p>By the way, I feel a great deal of respect and affection for the many nuns I’ve known over the years. There were always a few I didn’t enjoy as much, but the vast majority were women who sacrificed a personal life in order to serve God and the needy.</p>
<p>Allmusic is right that the you can be non religious and still be a Jews. Aside from a convertion process, if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish regardless of what you observe and what you do not observe. However, what has the Jewish people together is first and foremost the Bible then followed by traditions, language, cutoms etc…</p>
<p>Hanna, no where did I see you were less of a Jew if you put up a Christmas tree. You are as much of a Jews as I am. However, it is not right from the religious Jewish perspective to do so. In fact it can be taken by some as very insulting. I personally do not care but their are people orthodox and non orthodox who will look at an act like that and say that their whole lives Christianity was forced on them or that their whole lives their Judaism was surpressed by governments and societies and other people, and then they come to America where there is freedom and where they have chance to finally do Jewish things, let their Judaism radiate outward, there are people adapting Christian customs. Having a Christmas tree is not a Christian mandate. I know that. It is a tradition, however, from a religious perspective and remember religion is what holds Jews together, having a Christmas tree is a method of adapting Christianty or parts of it simply because of what that tree represents. Having that tree because it is a Christmas tree is really a means towards assimilation. You are forgoing your customs that your family thousands of years before you had followed for the customs of a completely different religion. And yes I do feel that Jews should not celebrate Halloween for the same exact reason. By accepting the traditions of another religion you are slowly assimilating yourself and forgoing your own roots and traditions. Halloween, though, is not nearly the same things as Christmas considering the power Christianity has and how widespread its. When it comes to pagan they are an extremely small number. Also, perhaps some Jews would be discouraged to celebrate Halloween that on Halloween people would go out and kill Jews. Now Halloween has become so secular that it has nothing to do with paganism and thats why its really different from Christianity. So Hanna, I never said that you are less of a Jew for having a tree, it makes you less observant but certaintly not less Jewish. But I do feel that you are indirectly and unwillingly disrespecting many people by that. African Jews, Arab Jews, Soviet Jews, Spanish Jews etc have gone through so much so that they can live their Jewish life outwardly that is is hurtful when essentially a fellow “brother/sister” would forget her Jewish roots to celebrate a Christian belief.</p>
<p>Most people’s religious “faith” is an “accident” of birth, following in parents footsteps, depending on where snd to whom you were born often determines what religious practice you will follow</p>
<p>if golani89 had been born to a different family, he could very well be morman, if you get my drift</p>
<p>and when you talk about “self respecting” that is a judgement call, and not anyones to make</p>
<p>I thought a person’s faith and how they practiced was between them and their God, and not for another to even comment on, and to do so is arrogant, in my opinion</p>
<p>I would never go to a Catholic and say, why weren’t you at mass, and is that birth control in your pocket</p>
<p>If one is comfortable with their faith, they do not judge others in how they practice that faith</p>
<p>Most Christian events were created or adjusted to blend in with Pagan rituals</p>
<p>So, is it religion, birthright, or tradition that holds Jews together and who is too judge which is more or less valid- certainly not me, but I would also say that how one follows their Jewish roots, practices, etc, is very personal - and when you have a religion, with people at both spectrums of the bell curve with regards to practices (same with Christians and Muslims), to say, well you can’t do that because it disrepects the faith is just not right, unless of course it takes away human dignity, freedoms, rights, safety and value, then you must stand up and say, that is not what your religion teaches, that is just not right</p>
<p>Birth makes you a Jew unless you convert to Judaism. From then the reason Jews survived thousands of years of persecution is because of religion. That is what kept them together-it was the written and oral bible. Even allmusic, who disagree with me on just about everything, will agree with me on this. After religion it was traditions and customs which came from our religion and the Hebrew and Yiddish language which held the Jews together as a nation. So many other nations, especially ancient ones like Jews have disappeared or are near extinct, but the Jews are still going at it, and are pretty influential in the world. As for “commenting on another person’s faith”, to a certain degree it is wrong, but when someone decides to discuss then its open for discussion. Hana mentioned she puts up a Christmas tree. So I politely tried to explain to her what it means to do that from a Jewish position. This, CGM by the way, is not my opinion. It is the opinion of great scholars from thousands of years ago to 10 years ago. Judaism has not changed and either have rabbinical interpretations. Also I was not really commentating so much on Hannas observance as I was on the problems of Jews adapting Christian customs. Jews wear fringes under their clothes to constantly remind them who they and what they are and where they came from and to remind them of a god. A Christmas tree will do just the opposite to a Jew. Because to many this is a real problem just like inter-religious marriages. Also as I already mentioned before it doesnt disrespect the faith so much as it hurts, and note that this is different from disrespect, it hurts emotionally many Jewish people. So much has happened to us in the span of our existance and to see the very thing that held us together, what made us survive being chipped away by assimilation is very upsetting, but we know from history that assimilation doesnt work no matter how much that Jew tries. Jewish Germans were more German than “regular” Germans and look what happened to them. The birth of reform Judaism was in Germany, and look what good assimilation did there. If we Jews respect our past and our history and our culture, we will get alot more respect from others. That being said, Hanna is free to do what she likes. I cant and will not stop her. Nor will any other Jew. All I can do is offer a suggestion and a perspective that should be accepted and listened to by all of the open-minded liberals on this board.</p>
<p>Here is an article that I feel is somewhat relevant on this topic. I think many of you would find it very interesting <a href=“Satellite News and latest stories | The Jerusalem Post”>Satellite News and latest stories | The Jerusalem Post;
<p>As for you CGM, please do not be hypocritcal because it really hurts your credibility, and I am just looking out for you. Countless you have attacked the religious observance of popular Christian leaders after some mistakes they made. For example, just to cite one of your favorite attacks on Haggard, a popular Church leader who turned out to be gay, cheating on his wife, and possibly using drugs. Using your criteria of "and when you talk about self respecting that is a judgement call, and not anyones to make</p>
<p>I thought a person’s faith and how they practiced was between them and their God, and not for another to even comment on, and to do so is arrogant, in my opinion" and “to say, well you can’t do that because it disrepects the faith is just not right, unless of course it takes away human dignity, freedoms, rights, safety and value, then you must stand up and say, that is not what your religion teaches, that is just not right” this following post you made, would in ur own words be arrogant and not right "if he is gay, he should have come out, and said see, you like me, and I am gay, you like my leadership of your church and I am gay…you as church going people shouldnt hate gays, becuas ethan you hate me…</p>
<p>that is what a true man of God would have done" </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=256542&page=2[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=256542&page=2</a> the last post on the page. CGM talks about what a true man of God would have done, she tells the congregation what they should do and she even accuses them of hating gays. So CGM becareful next time you post because your blatant hypocricy and hatred of evangelicals christianity just continues to come out.</p>
<p>cgm: Has it dawned on you yet that though you think you never judge, you actually constantly judge people by judging them to be judgmental? :p: </p>
<p>It is only in your world that “anything goes” unless it goes against <em>your</em> personal definition of what goes takes away from human dignity, freedoms, rights, safety and value. </p>
<p>There are certain religious rituals and practices which are meaningless to YOU because you do not practice a religion that believes in a higher power, and you personally do not have faith in a higher power.</p>
<p>For example, the Catholic Church has a few simple rules and beliefs one is supposed to follow. One simple one is going to Mass each and every Sunday. Now if my neighbor never goes to Mass and calls himself a Catholic, in your world that would be okay, but in mine it means he is not Catholic. He is, perhaps, a lapsed Catholic if he has not in his own mind repudiated the religion, but he is not presently <em>practicing</em> the religion so he is not Catholic.</p>
<p>As an analogy, my neighbor might call himself a law-abiding citizen. However, if I see him parking in a no parking space day after day, would it be okay if I determined he was not a law-abiding citizen?</p>
<p>My reading of the Humanist Manifesto tells me that humanists have a problem with people believing in the afterlife because they believe it is holding back the human race’s evolution, so to speak. Since you are a Humanist, I’m assuming you believe that. Have you considered that this belief may be coloring your view of people who believe in the Bible, a book which you have thoroughly ridiculed time and time again on this board? Maybe your humanist beliefs color your condemnations of fundamentalists, who so firmly believe in the concept of hell?</p>
<p>You try to pretend that your judgments and determinations come from nowhere, and because they’re not connected to a religion they are somehow more noble. </p>
<p>Sorry, your humanist beliefs are inherently no more noble than my Catholic beliefs. I’m willing to bet you think they are, though.</p>
<p>My only problem with humanists is that they are normally not open about their beliefs, whereas usually people who belong to an organized religion are open about it.</p>
<p>sjmom: I was thinking of an ethnic culture, not a common experience. </p>
<p>Are lapsed Catholics still Catholic? I believe they are, because the Church still considers them to be. We’re all sinners in need of God’s forgiveness. I’d have to research it, but is it true that a Catholic is a Catholic until he renounces his faith?</p>
<p>I think that unless someone baptized and raised Catholic (receives the sacraments) repudiates the religion by converting to another faith or becoming agnostic or atheistic in his beliefs, that person is still Catholic, though a “lapsed Catholic.” In other words, he is a Catholic sinner, and is welcomed back into the church at anytime if he chooses to begin to follow the rules of the Church.</p>
<p>It’s interesting, because I don’t know of another religion that has the concept of “lapsed” like Catholics do. :)</p>
<p>Well, yes, I have critisized LEADERS of church, and what they do in PUBLIC life, that is very different from what my neighbor does in his home…what you can’t see the difference</p>
<p>To call me a hypocrit in this regard is kind of pathetic…and not very intellectual</p>
<p>A LEADER, teacher, a politician, are VERY differnt when they are in the public life and espouse values that they don’t actually practice</p>
<p>That is not the same as a Jew having a Christmas tree in their home</p>
<p>It is truely astouding that lack of depth in that post, and the lack of seeing nuance and subtley…'</p>
<p>If that man was just a regular guy, not walking around teaching young people, not raking in tons of money, not leading millions of people, not talking to the white house weakling, then would say, what he did was between him, his wife, his family and his God. But he was not…he was preacher who preached hate, he was a man who tried to change public pollicy, he was a man who made a very big deal publically and used the bible to tell others how to live</p>
<p>i wish Haggerd had been true to himself, and been an honest man…BUT to him power and control and fame were more important than his faith, his family. But that again, if his wife sticks by him, that is not my business eiather way, that is a personal matter</p>
<p>If a football player, say, was married and it came out he was gay, I could care less, and I really could care less about Haggerd being gay, but again, he did his darnest to hurt gays, and and used his connections, his ministry of God to preach against the very thing he was</p>
<p>I just see some differences that you are unable to grasp, perhaps some day you will</p>
<p>I think the ethnic differences among Catholics, which most brought to America, are interesting too. For example, my mother’s side of the family are Polish Catholics (through her mother, her father was Protestant). This tradition carries with it its own set of traditions and rituals. As Italians and Irish and Mexicans etc. have their own traditions. The traditions are all quite beautiful, imo.</p>