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</p>
<p>And I believe you started that, too. Didn’t you , hh?</p>
<p>Don’t worry about it, hh. I’m not easily offended. When I had the same discussion with my older sis and she realized how bad it made her look, she called me the Devil. At least you haven’t done THAT.</p>
<p>Looking bad is in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it?</p>
<p>
As is , it appears, looking like a bigot. Truth?</p>
<p>You still don’t get it I guess. <em>I</em> am not judging anyone. I am simply stating facts about the <em>rules</em> of my religion.</p>
<p>But people like golani and I can say that until we’re blue in the face, but some here won’t <em>hear of it.</em> Because they do not accept that there are people who <em>CHOOSE</em> to follow the <em>RULES</em> of a religion.</p>
<p>In other words, it is they who are intolerant, and even bigoted.</p>
<p>I think you know all this. But it’s not in the interests of <em>your</em> belief system to let on that you do, is it.</p>
<p>You can be part of the church of Cur, and lealdragon can be part of her church of leal, and cgm can be her own citygirlsmom church.</p>
<p>That’s fine.</p>
<p>Some of us choose to part of what people see as regressive and repressive religions. And that burns the members of the churches of cur, cgm and leal, doesn’t it?</p>
<p>In fact, it’s a major battle in this country. What they call, I believe, the “culture war.”</p>
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</p>
<p>I’ve asked you twice nicely , what about those in your chosen religion who do not follow the rule on contraception? You continue to avoid the question to keep from looking worse. Now you can’t avoid it. You are trapped. Have the faith that you say you have and state your beliefs. Are they Catholic? Are they self respecting Catholics? Can they call themselves Catholics?</p>
<p>Let’s get it out there in the sunlight so others can see the limits of this tolerance you speak of having.</p>
<p>I haven’t answered, because the question is absurd.</p>
<p>The church has rules. I am quite sure not all of us follow all of them (if any of us do–probably not). In fact, most assuredly not, unless we are saints.</p>
<p>We can be part of the church anytime by attempting to follow the rules and if we don’t, confessing. Then we’re forgiven. Go and sin no more. And guess what, we will. It never ends.</p>
<p>In fact, you can not follow any of the Church’s rules and still be a Catholic, albeit a “lapsed one.” It’s a great religion. ;)</p>
<p>I do think, though, that a priest may not consider you Catholic (can he judge, in your world?) if you don’t at least attend mass occasionally. :)</p>
<p>Your game is to call the church hypocritical: that’s your choice. Enjoy.</p>
<p>And before I’d make fun of the religion of Cur, or Leal, if you keep lopping off folks from the body of Catholicism for rules violations , you may be right there with us. ;)</p>
<p>Read post 307.</p>
<p>Btw, since I am called to defend my beliefs on this board and to you, what are yours?? :)</p>
<p>
I think this will do just fine for my purpose.</p>
<p>And I don’t believe my questions were about “lapsed Catholic”. Is that like “dormant”?</p>
<p>My beliefs would best be described as a work in progress. Of course I have been working on it a looong time. Unfortunately, I’m still a searcher. Lately I have been looking at Christianity again, hence my interest in the thread. So that you can have something to criticize I will tell you I have “faith” issues. Criticize away.</p>
<p>It’s a b****, ain’t it.</p>
<p>Sho’ ‘nuff is. But I’m still pluggin’ away. Like all of us (I’m assuming) , I would just like to find a place to rest.</p>
<p>As I posted before numerous times, but it has been ignored by people who do not like the truth and want to personally attack me,that you are Jewish if you are born to a Jewish mother or if you og through the proper conversion process. Level of observance does not make a Jew. The Secular Jew is just as much of a Jew as the observant one.</p>
<p>SO now I repear myself AGAIN, Hanna, no where did I say you were less of a Jew if you put up a Christmas tree. You are as much of a Jews as I am. However, you are disrespecting yourself, other Jews, and the memory of many Jews who had died because they refused to accept Christian religion as their own. First of, it is not right from the religious Jewish perspective to put up a Christmas tree. That is not my opinion. That is Jewish law validated by thousands of years of existance. In fact it can be taken by some as very insulting and even worse, hurtful. I personally do not care but there are people orthodox and non orthodox, like my parents and their parents, who will look at an act like that and say that their whole lives Christianity was forced on them or that their whole lives their Judaism was surpressed by governments and societies and other people, and then they come to America where there is freedom and where they have chance to finally do Jewish things, let their Judaism radiate outward, there are people adapting Christian customs and assimilating into society. Having a Christmas tree is not a Christian mandate. I know that. It is a tradition, however, from a religious perspective and remember religion is what holds Jews together, having a Christmas tree is a method of adapting Christianty or parts of it simply because of what that tree represents. Having that tree because it is a Christmas tree is really a means towards assimilation. You are forgoing your customs that your family thousands of years before you had followed for the customs of a completely different religion. The steps you are taking which you think is the “honorable” multi-culturalism is actually terrible because you are slowly trying to assimliate yourself into society. Soon your offspring or their offspring or even their offspring will forget who they are, who they were, how many died before them because instead of strengthening your roots you are weakening them by putting Christianity into your life. So Hanna, I never said that you are less of a Jew for having a tree, it makes you less observant but certaintly not less Jewish. Your children will be Jewish, but from there who knows. If you do not let them remember their past they can intermarry and their ends the “Hanna” Jewish lineage. And I do feel that you are indirectly and unwillingly hurting many people by that. African Jews, Arab Jews, Soviet Jews, Spanish Jews etc have gone through so much so that they can live their Jewish life outwardly that is is hurtful when essentially a fellow “brother/sister” would forget her Jewish roots to celebrate a Christian belief.</p>
<p>So go ahead. Call me rude, call me a bigot, but things are as they are and we cant change them. 6 million did not die so you can put up a Christmas tree. So much has happened to us in the span of our existance and to see the very thing that held us together, what made us survive being chipped away by assimilation is very upsetting, but we know from history that assimilation doesnt work no matter how much that Jew tries. Jewish Germans were more German than “regular” Germans and look what happened to them. The birth of reform Judaism was in Germany, and look what good assimilation did there. If we Jews respect our past and our history and our culture, we will get alot more respect from others. That being said, Hanna is free to do what she likes. I cant and will not stop her. Nor will any other Jew. All I can do is offer a suggestion and a perspective that should be accepted and listened to by all of the open-minded liberals on this board.</p>
<p>My own father, probably the most honorable, honest man I’ve ever known outside of my husband, never set foot in any church. I never knew if he believed in God until I was in college and I asked him one day. He said yes. That’s all I knew. All I know is that if there is a heaven, and this man is not there, something is wrong. </p>
<p>He never once disrespected my mother’s religion; in fact, drove us to religious instruction and church, confession, holy days, and various other services regularly (she didn’t drive).</p>
<p>Perhaps because of my background, I have no problem with anyone’s choice of beliefs. I do (forgive me) have a problem when people attempt to belittle or discredit mine. In my book that is bigotry. Sorry if it’s a harsh word, perhaps you prefer intolerant. Take your pick.</p>
<p>I wish you the best in your journey.</p>
<p>One man under a tree with God always seemed enough for me. If there is a Heaven, I’m sure he’s there. Thanks for the good wishes and to you hh, I wish you peace of mind .</p>
<p>No peace of mind for me, cur. I’m not opting out of the battle. 
But thanks. :)</p>
<p>and I’ll still be there, too, hh. I guess we better cinch the belts and boots on tight.</p>
<p>“Your children will be Jewish, but from there who knows.”</p>
<p>You mean to say I might be depriving the world of the “Hanna” Jewish lineage? Horrors. I believe my children would be worth just as much to the world whether they remain Jews or not, since I don’t believe Jews are more important than other human beings. I learned this at the knee of my late grandmother Dulsky, who learned it from her mother, Goldie Midlinsky, may they rest in peace. They taught me that what matters about a human being is righteousness, not Jewishness. You don’t seem to be concerned about the possibility that my grandchildren might be child molesters or arsonists…just that they might be non-Jews. You can go ahead and present your beliefs as the one and only Jewish perspective if it makes you happy, but I’m going to let other posters know that Goldie Midlinsky taught me a different, equally Jewish way of doing things.</p>
<p>“we know from history that assimilation doesnt work no matter how much that Jew tries. Jewish Germans were more German than “regular” Germans and look what happened to them.”</p>
<p>If I put up a Christmas tree in an attempt to avoid being gassed, then perhaps this lesson would be germane. Since I don’t, it isn’t.</p>
<p>“you are disrespecting yourself, other Jews, and the memory of many Jews who had died because they refused to accept Christian religion as their own…6 million did not die so you can put up a Christmas tree.”</p>
<p>Golani, why do you think you need to educate me about why my own relatives died? Why would you tell a complete stranger that there’s only one way – your way – to understand and honor the death of her family? You’ll forgive me if I don’t respond any more; I don’t care to be lectured to about my own family, why they lived and died, and what they wanted for me and my children.</p>
<p>“My own father, probably the most honorable, honest man I’ve ever known outside of my husband, never set foot in any church. I never knew if he believed in God until I was in college and I asked him one day. He said yes. That’s all I knew. All I know is that if there is a heaven, and this man is not there, something is wrong.”</p>
<p>THIS from hh!!!</p>
<p>Wow, hh, this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say all along!!!</p>
<p>All these things that you thought were disrespectful of your church and born-again Christianity, were about THIS!</p>
<p>PLEASE try to understand:</p>
<p>What you just said. About your dad. </p>
<p>Now, would you like it if people in your church came up to you out of the blue and said, “hh, your dad is surely in ‘hell’ because he was never baptized a Catholic” or some born-agains said, “hh, your dad is surely in ‘hell’ because he never accepted Jesus.”</p>
<p>How would you feel? (or how did you feel, if it already has happened?)</p>
<p>Would you feel violated? Judged? Offended? Defensive, since you know what a wonderful person your dad was? Would you feel it was NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS?</p>
<p>hh, please understand, that all I ever did was point out instances in which THIS VERY THING happened to ME and those I LOVE.</p>
<p>Why do you continue to insist that I insulted your religion, when all I did was point out the VERY SAME THING that you just pointed out???</p>
<p>That something is very, very wrong.</p>
<p>See, I DO think ‘something is wrong’ and I am not willing to accept it. I DO believe that you dad IS in ‘heaven’ (or some sort of higher place of consciousness, in a place of LOVE and in God’s presence). That is why I cannot be content with Catholicism or born-again Christianity the way they are defined in our society today. Neither of them allows any room for people like your dad.</p>
<p>“I do (forgive me) have a problem when people attempt to belittle or discredit mine. In my book that is bigotry.”</p>
<p>Again, we are in AGREEMENT here! Why can you not see that??? Please understand, that what you thought was me ‘belittling’ YOUR beliefs was simply telling the STORY of how Christians belittled MY beliefs!!! My beliefs have been belittled numerous times - to the point of people coming into my own house (a midwife whom I chose because she was a Christian!) then subjecting me to a horrible ordeal because of a picture of a whimsical unicorn! And then telling me that my baby’s birth had complications because of the unicorn picture! Stuff like that! And countless other occasions! And it wasn’t just belittling, either, it was absolute judgment - I was actually labeled ‘satanic’ for believing in reincarnation, refusing to eat dead animals, and wearing a pretty crystal rock (that was made by GOD, btw) and for using herbs (also made by GOD, btw) and for not going to church (even though I pray on my own numerous times throughout the day) and countless other things that I don’t expect you to agree with, but just acknowledge that they happen to be MY beliefs and I have been criticized in most rude ways because of them.</p>
<p>My beliefs were more than belittled - I was subjected to extreme trauma because of them. So yeah, I’m a little resentful. Wouldn’t you be if people frequently stopped you on the street and told you your dad was in ‘hell’?</p>
<p>Wouldn’t you feel the need to vent just a little?</p>
<p>Would you consider yourself a bigot if you just told others about what those people on the street said to you?</p>
<p>Would you be a bigot if you openly admitted that you simply DID NOT LIKE those people on the street saying your dad was in ‘hell’?</p>
<p>Please try to understand - it is the SAME SITUATION that I am speaking of, yet you criticize me for it.</p>
<p>Perhaps no one has ever said that to you about your dad. If so, can you possibly imagine what it would feel like?</p>
<p>Then maybe have a bit of understanding and compassion?</p>
<p>Why don’t you just mind your own business then and leave established religions alone.</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between you and my father in that regard.</p>
<p>I’m sorry you can’t see that.</p>