<p>Sorry, did I miss something? What has lealdragon done to harm established religions? I certainly don’t recall her torturing the moriscos, driving les Acadiens from Nova Scotia, or desecrating any synagogues, but my memory isn’t what it used to be.</p>
<p>Or did you mean she has expressed ideas you find uncomfortable? Ideas you’d prefer to surpress?</p>
<p>There is a good deal of pigheadedness on this thread. My goodness.</p>
<p>golani89, you talk big, but you know so little, you need to learn so much</p>
<p>to even think you can judge another and their faith is arrogant at its very core</p>
<p>you walk to synagoue, some would say, unless you are orthodox you are not a “real” jew…do you practice all the tenets of your religion…each and every one…I sincerely doubt it, even rabbis would say they err</p>
<p>Thanks, conyat.</p>
<p>–</p>
<p>“Why don’t you just mind your own business then and leave established religions alone.There is a huge difference between you and my father in that regard.
I’m sorry you can’t see that.”</p>
<p>So now I’m butting into your business? </p>
<p>May I remind you that YOU brought up your father. YOU shared with us something personal, something I could relate to.</p>
<p>I never compared myself to your father.</p>
<p>I only gave an example of how people judging your father is similar to people judging people who have different religions (using myself as an example NOT because I am anything like your father, but only because of the one thing we do have in common: we are both the target of religious people saying we are going to ‘hell’.)</p>
<p>Is it so impossible for you to just see this from another point of view? hh, I was reaching out to you! I was ‘hoping’ that at last maybe there was a way to find some common ground, by putting my situation in terms you might be able to understand because of what you went thru with your dad.</p>
<p>I was reaching out to you in an effort to quit offending each other and start UNDERSTANDING each other.</p>
<p>No Jew would say that because you do not walk to synagogue you are not a real Jew. Either would any Rabbi. Just look at Israel’s Law of Return. Every Jew, no matter what his observance is, can be a citizen of Israel, just on the fact he is Jewish.</p>
<p>I do not practice all the tenents of Judaism; however, I do not practice the tenets and accept the beliefs of other religions. </p>
<p>You know, Citygirlsmom, if you took your head out of San Fransisco for a second and took a look at the world around you, perhaps gave others that openmindedness that you claim is so characteristic in San Fran (unless you are a soldier, religious, or conservative), and take a look at what I was saying. Really read my post. Had you been able to you would have responded with a logical argument such as why it is okay to put up a Christmas tree. But you cant. Follwing every tenet of Judaism is great, but this religion values people who do as much as they can. So if you do not walk to synagogue, its wrong, but its ok. As a Jew you and your soul will grow and get their someday. BUT when you start to adapt another religion and assimilate, that is bad and that is a huge mistake. That is much worse than not walking to synagogue. It is not even on the same scale.
So let me repost for the third time the same thing and maybe you will understand this time. Get yourself out of San Fransisco and remind yourself of what the Jewish nation has been through so that they would NOT have to go to mass, NOT have to put up a tree, NOT have to hide their roots, their background, their religion.</p>
<p>I am not judging Hanna’s faith. Her level of observance does not bother me so much as the fact that she puts up a Christmas tree. Lets take it for what its worth. HH, I think you can sympathize with my position here. It must be relevant to you when people spit on your religion be they seculars or Muslims or even other Christians, and this is much worse now because its a Jew forgetting her past and her roots. For all I care, Hanna can be completely secular, but forgeting who you are and what you are is plain wrong.</p>
<p>As I posted before numerous times, but it has been ignored by people who do not like the truth and want to personally attack me,that you are Jewish if you are born to a Jewish mother or if you og through the proper conversion process. Level of observance does not make a Jew. The Secular Jew is just as much of a Jew as the observant one.</p>
<p>SO now I repear myself AGAIN, Hanna, no where did I say you were less of a Jew if you put up a Christmas tree. You are as much of a Jews as I am. However, you are disrespecting yourself, other Jews, and the memory of many Jews who had died because they refused to accept Christian religion as their own. First of, it is not right from the religious Jewish perspective to put up a Christmas tree. That is not my opinion. That is Jewish law validated by thousands of years of existance. In fact it can be taken by some as very insulting and even worse, hurtful. I personally do not care but there are people orthodox and non orthodox, like my parents and their parents, who will look at an act like that and say that their whole lives Christianity was forced on them or that their whole lives their Judaism was surpressed by governments and societies and other people, and then they come to America where there is freedom and where they have chance to finally do Jewish things, let their Judaism radiate outward, there are people adapting Christian customs and assimilating into society. Having a Christmas tree is not a Christian mandate. I know that. It is a tradition, however, from a religious perspective and remember religion is what holds Jews together, having a Christmas tree is a method of adapting Christianty or parts of it simply because of what that tree represents. Having that tree because it is a Christmas tree is really a means towards assimilation. You are forgoing your customs that your family thousands of years before you had followed for the customs of a completely different religion. The steps you are taking which you think is the “honorable” multi-culturalism is actually terrible because you are slowly trying to assimliate yourself into society. Soon your offspring or their offspring or even their offspring will forget who they are, who they were, how many died before them because instead of strengthening your roots you are weakening them by putting Christianity into your life. So Hanna, I never said that you are less of a Jew for having a tree, it makes you less observant but certaintly not less Jewish. Your children will be Jewish, but from there who knows. If you do not let them remember their past they can intermarry and their ends the “Hanna” Jewish lineage. And I do feel that you are indirectly and unwillingly hurting many people by that. African Jews, Arab Jews, Soviet Jews, Spanish Jews etc have gone through so much so that they can live their Jewish life outwardly that is is hurtful when essentially a fellow “brother/sister” would forget her Jewish roots to celebrate a Christian belief.</p>
<p>So go ahead. Call me rude, call me a bigot, but things are as they are and we cant change them. 6 million did not die so you can put up a Christmas tree. So much has happened to us in the span of our existance and to see the very thing that held us together, what made us survive being chipped away by assimilation is very upsetting, but we know from history that assimilation doesnt work no matter how much that Jew tries. Jewish Germans were more German than “regular” Germans and look what happened to them. The birth of reform Judaism was in Germany, and look what good assimilation did there. If we Jews respect our past and our history and our culture, we will get alot more respect from others. That being said, Hanna is free to do what she likes. I cant and will not stop her. Nor will any other Jew. All I can do is offer a suggestion and a perspective that should be accepted and listened to by all of the open-minded liberals on this board.</p>
<p>“BUT when you start to adapt another religion and assimilate, that is bad and that is a huge mistake.”</p>
<p>Just substitute for ‘marry a person of another race’ for ‘adapt another religion’
into the above statement and what do you get?</p>
<p>Racism!</p>
<p>“BUT when you start to adapt another religion and assimilate, that is bad and that is a huge mistake.” take that in the context of the whole thing. </p>
<p>Do not distory my words. To call me a racist because of those things is ridiculous. I do not even know how to respond. After the passioned plea to keep your identity, and you jsut call me a racist.</p>
<p>I did not call you a racist. I called the action of believing it to be ‘bad’ to assimilate different types of people, whether on the basis of race or religion, to be essentially the same thing: racism.</p>
<p>I was attempting to draw a parallel between a belief in keeping religions ‘pure’ and the belief in keeping races ‘pure.’</p>
<p>Ironically, that was Hitler’s belief. He wanted a ‘pure’ race. How is your belief any different from his?</p>
<p>(Before you jump to conclusions, I am NOT implying in any way that you would advocate violence against other religions - obviously that is NOT what I mean! I mean the belief itself, not the horrible things he did to enforce that belief.)</p>
<p>It wasn’t very long ago that people got disowned for marrying outside their race. It still happens today, unfortunately, thought it is less common.</p>
<p>Now, a huge percentage of the population is of mixed ethnicity, which I think is a wonderful thing.</p>
<p>My point is that there may come a day when the belief that religions should be kept ‘pure’ may be viewed the same way we now view that belief when applied to ethnicity/races.</p>
<p>golani89, when you use the word respectable…well, what do you mean by that EXACTLY? when you use that word you are calling them basd Jews, and that is not your place, no matter what you think</p>
<p>I have seen the world, sunshine, and I have many Jewish friends who practice Judiasm in their own way</p>
<p>Some drive to synagogue, some walk, some yes eat pork…do you judge all Jews by YOUR standards of practice</p>
<p>I understand what you’re saying, golani.
The fact is that there are intolerant people posting here.</p>
<p>I think you have to be Jewish to understand what I am going to say. Jews have been around for thousands of years. For the sake of argument we can agree that its the oldest religion. Not only is Judaism is a religion, but it is a nation of people, bound together by traditions, customs, culture, laws, morals, languages, food, song, history, literature. We Jews represent our own society, own culture. Assimilating different types of people is not bad, as long as you remember who YOU are and your OWN past and history and such. But we Jews a tiny minority in the world have to be warry of assimilation because it can kill us, it can destroy our culture and all that will be left are some books that will eventually be put on display in the Smithsonian. I would like to compare Judaism to Catholicism, but I cant because even those two are different. As much as Catholicism is an international religion, like Judaism, in a sense, Judaism is still much more than a religion. Maybe you will understand it this way: Why should we, Jews, finish the job that Hitler started?</p>
<p>It is not about standard of practice, but it is about how they are hurting 13 million other Jews, but spitting on the sufferings of their own family, on the pains of other people. They are rubbing wounds on the cuts on my fathers face when he was beating for being Jewish. I said it 3 time and I will say it a fourth time, so others who are just reading and not posting, will know that I am not what you say I am CGM, because you hate religiosity and you deplore traditonalism. A JEW IS A JEW REGARDLESS OF RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE.</p>
<p>you two can talk at each other…intellectual curiosity is dead on this thread…too bad</p>
<p><it came=“” from=“” people=“” thinking=“” jews=“” were=“” bad=“” because=“” of=“” their=“” beliefs…imagine=“” that.=“”></it></p>
<p>cgm: Do you understand the meaning of <em>irony</em>??</p>
<p>Hey, I just thought of way to maybe try yet again to convey what I’ve been (unsuccessfully) trying to convey:</p>
<p>As you know, I am a vegetarian. I believe that there are plenty of foods to eat so there is no longer any need to eat animals. I find it a primitive and barbaric practice.</p>
<p>I also think that animals should be treated humanely and allowed to live their little animal lives in a way that is respectful to them as a species.</p>
<p>There is an organization called PETA that shares my beliefs. Some members of PETA have beliefs that extend much farther than mine; some believe that we shouldn’t even eat honey or cheese. (I love honey and cheese.)</p>
<p>Well, most members of PETA are kind, law-abiding citizens. But, a few are what might be considered ‘radical’ even by my standards.</p>
<p>And, a few of those engage in violent, illegal activities, such as destroying science labs in order to save the lab cats and rats. An even smaller few have even gone so far as to be violent against humans in order to save some animals. Similar to the Christians who blow up abortion clinics: the FRINGE.</p>
<p>Well, whether it is a tiny percentage of animal-rights activists or a large percentage is not the point.</p>
<p>The point is that if tomorrow I meet someone who happens to be a research scientist and he tells me a horror story of how his life’s work was destroyed by some animal rights activists, and maybe he even got injured in an act of violence by the animal rights activists, should I think he is attacking ALL animal rights activists, or ALL vegetarians?</p>
<p>I think that would be ridiculous. I personally would NOT engage in violence or vandalism to save some animals. I make my own personal statement by not eating them, and I may go to an anti-fur rally, but I will not go to such extreme measures as some do.</p>
<p>So why on earth should I be offended and think that someone is attacking my beliefs if s/he simply tells me about what was done to him/her by someone with beliefs similar to mine?</p>
<p>That research scientist has a right to be upset about the attack on his/her lab. S/he has a very good reason to be a little wary of animal rights activism in general. Does that make him/her a bigot?</p>
<p>Well, hh, I guess you’re not going to respond to my reaching out.</p>
<p>I hope you see your dad in heaven, really I do. I still think you will get there and see him there, even though you have just reinforced in my mind the very things about Christianity that I am trying to get over.</p>
<p>please see #335</p>
<p>When did I ever say you or any group of people were bad because of their beliefs?</p>
<p>cgm made the statement I quoted in #335 (referring to the Holocaust) but then she edited it out. ;)</p>
<p>leal: I have no problem with your religion, beliefs, whatever, but you <em>do indeed</em> have a problem with mine. Let’s just leave it at that and call it a day, before we bore people to tears (or even death, which may or may not include hell, heaven, higher consciousness, reincarnation, whatever). Okay?</p>