<p>lol… UMass… the best public in New England… are you joking? UConn has held that distinction for well over a decade.</p>
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<p>Because only in the upper-class suburbs of New England do people speak with straight faces about “not even considering” Tier One colleges that their children could attend for free.</p>
<p>I have too many relatives and have spent too much time in New England to buy into the idea that these decisions are based on “research.”</p>
<p>Sorry Kate- I’ve lived in lots of places and met staff and faculty from public U’s in Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana, Georgia who pay through the nose to send their kids to private U’s. I have no idea whether they kept their straight faces on… but they paid.</p>
<p>I don’t think you are describing a New England phenomenon. As much as you’d like to believe it is. Even in some very unpretentious parts of the midwest and south, there is an allure to a private LAC for faculty kids that is very hard to ignore.</p>
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<p>I’ve already said as much about women’s basketball. Oh, you mean academically?</p>
<p>Look, I’ve lived all over the country. It’s only in CT that people really believe that…and more power to them. But unless your from CT, it just sounds silly and defensive. </p>
<p>The fact is that UCONN and UMASS live in the large shadow of a lot of state colleges that have far better reputations and in the large shadows of the Ivy League and other LACs. I’m not sure why someone would try to insist otherwise.</p>
<p>blossom, That faculty at colleges would choose to spend their money on private schools is no suprise to me. That they would say it outloud in public with a straight face is New England specific (I’ll throw parts of CA in there as well.)</p>
<p>But the idea that the suburbs of, say, Ohio, generate the same attitude towards the state universities that the suburbs of MA and CT do is just not reality based. I mean, are you really arguing otherwise?</p>
<p>Some state schools are different animals than UMass. If you want Big 10 football, you’re not going to find it anywhere in the Northeast. If you want large schools, you won’t find them here. </p>
<p>And how often on these boards have we heard people tell Northeasterners to “stop being so parochial” and go to the midwest? A lot of MA kids do want to get out of the Northeast corridor and see other parts of the country.</p>
<p>I believe, however, that the biggest problem is one of information. Locally, budget cuts, professorship cuts, bringing in adjunct & part-time faculty all make the news. Infrastructure problems make the news. Massachusetts is, after all, a very small state. Everyone knows what happens at UMass. It’s not like California, where someone familiar with what happens at UCSD may not know in detail what’s going on at UCSF. </p>
<p>And over the past 15 or 20 years, the political patronage at all UMass campuses has tarnished the school’s reputation (at all campuses). Billy Bulger needs a new job? OK, let’s make him president of UMass Amherst. Marty Meehan’s leaving Congress? OK, UMass Lowell needs a new president. </p>
<p>But we don’t know what budget cuts may have done to Michigan State or to Purdue. Or who the president is, or who he knew before becoming president, etc. etc.</p>
<p>If you’ve lived in Mass. all your life and feel that you must go out of state for college (to a Michigan State or Indiana) that’s fine and dandy. If you must have big-time college football, or be at an ACC school for basketball or a million other things, I get why UMass (look, no caps) may not be your #1 option. It’s up to each kid and their family as to whether the extra cost is worth it for these other facets of the college experience. It’s definately worth it if say you have your heart sent on sutdying engineering at Purdue or communications at BU/Syracuse. Again, more power to you. </p>
<p>But for a typical kid who isn’t sure what they want to major in and who wants to use the college experience to find themselves, I would argue there’s no educational benefit to going to a supposedly higher-ranked school (such as MSU) in the 50-100 range of the US News rankings (UMass is currently 102). If you’re applying for a job in any part of country (outside of the school’s home regions) whether your resume reads Michigan State or Massachusetts makes no difference. </p>
<p>The true differences are going to come down to your major (as it relates to the job), your internships, your work experiences, your references. You can craft a “total package” for yourself at UMass just as well as you can at MSU. And you won’t be watching more of your paycheck got out the door for the out-of-state privilege of going to MSU or another school. </p>
<p>There’s a post on the UMass board by a parent whose kid is dead-set against attending the school because of the misperceptions that have built up over the last 2-3 decades. The parent is aware of the misperceptions (and thinks highly of UMass) but is allowing the kid to go to a SUNY school, with all of the inherent extra costs. I hope the kid is expecting to stay in NY after graduation because most people in the Boston area have no idea what SUNY even stands for. This young-adult has flipped the value-proposition on its head at a time when it’s simply foolish to do so.</p>
<p>Its kids like these that UMass needs to reach in terms explaining the high quality of its educational experience and its overall value. Clearly, the school hasn’t done enough in recent years to combat the utter disdain some kids in the state have for the school WITHOUT EVER SETTING FOOT ON THE CAMPUS.</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, the profile of an incoming UMass freshman is getting more impressive each year. So much so that many kids are being pushed away to other UMass branches and community colleges. Once enough of these kids who had to “settle” for UMass spend four years on campus and begin to communicate what a dynamite experience they had, then you’ll start to see the perception of UMass catch up to reality. </p>
<p>A Division 1 football team and a law school wouldn’t hurt either but, for different reasons, these components may never come to pass.</p>
<p>Folks in NH are happy to send their kids to UMass.</p>
<p>Even way back when I was in high school in Massachusetts, I don’t think anybody thought the education at UMass was bad, it was the students there that were considered the problem. It was referred to as “ZooMass,” and if you figure that in the whole state (back then) almost everybody who could go elsewhere DID go elsewhere (even the other New England publics were very popular among Massachusetts high schoolers then…especially UNH and UVM), it was thought to have all the kids who were clever enough to tap a keg, but not clever enough to figure out a way to go anywhere but UMass.</p>
<p>Also, in New England at the time (maybe still?), large schools were thought to be less attractive than medium and small schools. It was almost like the official motto of UMass was “You’ll be just a ‘number’ there.” So even the small Mass. public colleges like Bridgewater State College, North Adams State College, and Westfield State College were thought by most people I knew to be a better option than UMass.</p>
<p>blossom,</p>
<p>Having lived in the midwest and now DC, I can tell you that the resistance to public higher ed in MA among people in “upper class” suburbs is much stronger than their counterparts in Maryland, Virginia, Indiana or Illinois (to name the states I know best)</p>
<p>If you compare apples to apples - U Mass to U. Ill, IU, U. Md, U. VA etc, you will find in every way that U. Mass falls short. Can you get a decent education at U Mass? Of course. Do its grads do well? Probably. But neither the education nor the opportunities for its grads are as good as its “competitors” in other states.</p>
<p>To me, having lived in the Boston area for a long time and “tasted the water”, what is curious is how content folks in other parts of the country are with their State U choices.</p>
<p>Kate, I’m not arguing attitude, I’m stating reality (with which you don’t seem to disagree.) Fact remains that many people- not just in New England- who could send their kids to their own flagship U for little or nothing choose to send them to a private institution. Does it matter what they tell the neighbors? Does that change the decision, or the calculus, or even the financials? So why pick on the suburbs of New England?</p>
<p>There are world class public U’s out there. There are fine public U’s who deliver on their charter every single day. There are public U’s which are a mess. (I’m not going to stand on my soapbox today and sort them all out, plus you already know which ones are which.) I don’t know why the professor in Columbus Ohio has any less of an attitude when she pays through the nose to send the kid to U Chicago than the professor in Amherst MA who pays through the nose to send the kid to Stanford or Duke.</p>
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<p>Those that pontificate about academics don’t impress when they struggle with second grade grammar. </p>
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<p>Well said.</p>
<p>I completely agree. As a Masschusetts resident, I feel almost gipped by this. I mean, I understand it is difficult to get into UC-Berk and UCLA even if you live in Cali, but I have a 2320 SATs and great recs and the best state school I have is UMass Amherst? That seems a bit unfair to me. I mean, I understand California is a very large state and has a multitude of highly qualified students, but the opportunities are greater.</p>
<p>Excellent points. It’s usually the MA kids that complain about UMass. I remember dorming with a bunch of NY kids who felt the same way about SUNY in reverse. It was staggering when I realized that they were paying $20,000 for the same education. It’s like buying a Toyota Camry for $20,000 and going home to find out that your neighbor bought the same exact car for $40,000… it really doesn’t compute.</p>
<p>Going back to rankings… and reputation shifts…</p>
<p>UMass can probably learn a little from NEU. In the late 1990s, US News ranked UMass in the 90s or so and NEU wasn’t even in the top 125. It was Tier 2. Over the course of a decade, NEU has managed to spend some unknowable amount of money on restructuring their campus with new awesome looking buildings and this investment has paid off. Their student body has improved faster than UMass’s and the campus itself is 10 times more attractive than it was in the 90s. This must have some measurable impact on yield.</p>
<p>Of course, UMass has a different mission. In the end, UMass can only accommodate x number of students. If more and more visitors see the school and appreciate the possibilities and the setting, more of these students will come. The school will then have to adjust their acceptance algorithm and a “better” student body is born.</p>
<p>Here’s an interesting fact. </p>
<p>“Massachusetts is the only state in the nation that educates more college students in the independent sector than in the public sector.”</p>
<p>[AICUM</a> - Home](<a href=“http://www.masscolleges.org%5DAICUM”>http://www.masscolleges.org)</p>
<p>Click on the Fast Facts link for the numbers.</p>
<p>Wow, where did you go to high school Schmaltz?</p>
<p>dreamsofivy, I know of 2 kids who got 1500+/1600 on their SATs that went to UMass with me from my high school. They were miffed at first but they got over it and found the coursework to be challenging. No offense to Cal or UCLA but if you’re smart, you’re going to succeed and find your way no matter where you go.</p>
<p>Branding is more important to high school seniors than they are to employers. That’s a lesson they don’t teach in high school.</p>
<p>One disadvantage of the Amherst location is that there are fewer opportunities for internships during the school year or summer internships where you can stay in the general area of your school for working at.</p>
<p>blossom, I find it odd that you use the example of university faculty and their children to make your point that negativity about state U’s is universal. That seems like a problematic sample group, because I strongly suspect that the proportion of faculty who grew up in the area where they teach is quite low compared to that area’s general population. Therefore I would think that faculty are not, as a group, a very good barometer of local attitudes.</p>
<p>The previous lack of selectivity may be the reason we’re having this discussion. Then again, shouldn’t a UMass education be available to everyone who qualifies? Isn’t that the point of a public, state-supported, land grant university? Even if almost everyone was accepted “back in the day” does that mean that a solid education similar to other state universities couldn’t be had?</p>
<p>As of '07 (65% admit rate) and '08 (64% admit rate) fully one-third of the applicants to UMass are denied admission. This is down from an 80% admit rate in '05 (although '02 saw an admit rate of 58%). I think the admit rate will again be in the 50-60% range this year as UMass saw a deluge of applications as more people chased the value of the school.</p>
<p>Compare this with Arizona State University, which has an annual admit rate over 95% (now THAT is letting everyone in). And yet ASU is only 20 spots behind UMass in the national rankings. Doesn’t make sense. The University of Arizona (ranked 7 spots higher than UMass) had an admit rate of 80% in '07, however I don’t sense nearly the in-state disdain for these schools that you hear about UMass. Clearly, there are other factors at play. </p>
<p>The rankings game puts UMass in quite the conundrum. To boost its reputation (especially among in-state residents) it must attract better students so that it can climb the rankings ladder into the 90s, 80s and beyond. But to accomplish this feat it must turn away more and more kids who should be able to get a UMass education. As the school climbs higher in the rankings it may very well get further away from its core mission. </p>
<p>We may be 1-2 short years away from people complaining about how elitist UMass has become and how regular Massachusetts kids have to settle for other schools.</p>
<p>Zoo-Mass. 'Nuff said. Would not send my kid there.</p>
<p>It’s pretty widely accepted that UCONN is the the top public university in New England.</p>
<p>Oh and the Men at UCONN play basketball, too! And especially well in 1999 and 2004.</p>