For some students, would there be no safeties?

Parents Forum
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<p>Not buying the “pain and suffering” of the kid who really wants to attend one of the service academies but might have to “settle” for ROTC at a different university.</p>

<p>Talk about a perfect opportunity for growth and introspection. (This goes for anyone who doesn’t get exactly what she wants.)</p>

<p>If the service academy applicant can’t handle having to take a different route to her goal of military service, how would she ever handle the “pain and suffering” of not getting her first choice assignment after graduation? About not getting one of the med. school slots? Or her first duty station being North Dakota when she wanted Italy? </p>

<p>Because heaven knows there has never in the history of the Army, Navy or Air Force been a person who had a stellar career without having first gone to an academy. (HA!)</p>

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<p>It’s nice to see someone say this openly. </p>

<p>And it’s not necessarily a negative statement about the safety school. It’s more about fit and expectations.</p>

<p>My daughter is far more academic than my son. The same university that was my son’s first choice was my daughter’s safety school. My son ended up there. He liked it and had a great experience. I can’t say enough good things about the place – based on his experiences. But that school wouldn’t have been as good a fit for his sister, and I’m glad she ended up elsewhere.</p>

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So if your child asks for bread, do you give him a stone, as an opportunity for growth and introspection? I get tired of hearing that nobody should ever be disappointed by anything.</p>

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And by the way, if you’re referring to something I said, which you seem to be, don’t put quotation marks around something that I didn’t say.</p>

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<p>“Not buying the “pain and suffering” of the kid who really wants to attend one of the service academies but might have to “settle” for ROTC at a different university.”</p>

<p>Exactly. If you don’t go into applying for one of these schools knowing the odds and having a backup to your backup plan, and being realistic about your odds, you probably shouldn’t even bother. My nephew has had a service academy as his goal since he was about 10. He’s now a rising senior in HS, already well into the process of getting the recommendations, the EC’s, the grades, etc. that he’ll need. But he’s got-has always had-several other options if the service academy doesn’t work out. While he might be disappointed if he doesn’t get in, his long-term goals have different paths to get there because he knows his chances are low that he’ll land everything he needs exactly. I believe ANY college applicant would do well to look at things that way.</p>

<p>This thread reminds me of the gifted program in my city’s school district where at public meetings a few years ago parent after parent got up and basically said their kids COULD NOT function with kids of lesser ability around them. They spoke in depth about how difficult it was to even be in the same building as “gen ed” kids. I always wondered what they expected these kids would do out in the real world where not everyone is highly gifted.</p>

<p>My D is one of those highly gifted kids. She has thrived NOT when surrounded by people exactly like herself, but those of differing abilities, interests and backgrounds. Life’s a lot more interesting that way.</p>

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Right. Which is what I said. If he admits to being disappointed, are you going to tell him to can the whining about his pain and suffering?</p>

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<p>Hunt, so sorry about the quotation marks. I put wuotes around those words, somewhat thoughtlessly. I know you didn’t say them.</p>

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<p>I know many, many student who do not apply to safety schools. Every single school on their list costs too much so the family/student will have to borrow, if their hopes for some aid and/awards do not come through, and admissions is not a sure thing. </p>

<p>My son’s close friend from high school applied only to schools had less than a 1/3 accept rate, and they were all private schools with COA’s ranging around the $55-60K range and more. He applied to at least a dozen such schools and was accepted to 4, with zero financial aid given and some merit awards, but nothing like what the families had hoped and even expected. I suppose one school was a safety in that he was accepted EA there, so he knew he was in somewhere before the rest of his applications were due.</p>

<p>So he is now commuting after a year that scared everyone in terms of loan amounts taken out and the prospect of doing it again at one of the most expensive schools in the county. Still costs a lot in tuition and fees, but he works quite a few hours to pay for commuting expenses and books, and he and parents are still taking out more in loans than most of us on this board would advise.</p>

<p>Most of the time, some school does accept the kid with great stats. The odds are on his side, and then the parents just have to come up with the money, and it’s usually loans if the aid and merit do not come through. That’s what happens. A close friend of mine came very close to pulling her one son out of a private school after gladly paying for the first child’s college with heavy duty loans, and finding themselves struggling to make the payments when that kid graduated and when the reality and impact of borrowing finally hit home. Kid #2 was half way through an expensive college then, like his sister attended, and they really agonized about letting him finish there rather than transferring to a state school. it went so far as his applying, was accepted and down to the date of return to school before they decided they would bite the bullet and borrow and let him go back there.</p>

<p>The third kid is going to a state school. They just can’t do another round of quarter million dollar loans. They are already a half million or so in debt for the older two kids’ education, with interest, as they didn’t pay while the kids were in school and it accrued wildly. They are struggling to pay #3’s costs out of pocket and still pay on the loans of the other two They will be in their late 70s or even 80’s before they pay all of this off, and they frankly say they probably will not ever pay it off–they may die first. B</p>

<p>This happens a lot around here.</p>

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<p>“Do you think a kid whose strong ambition is to go to one of the service academies has a “true safety?” Would you scoff at that kid for not being happy if he doesn’t gain admission to one of the academies?”</p>

<p>I guess it depends on what your definition of a safety is. I can understand ANYONE not getting into the school of their choice being temporarily heartbroken, and I don’t scoff at that.</p>

<p>I scoff at the notion that there won’t be adequately intelligent people at some state flagships in enough quantity for a person rejected by the ivies to be able to tolerate the environment and learn A LOT and get a meaningful education, and yes, even potentially find a spouse.</p>

<p>I scoff at the notion that this would be some terrible step down. Especially when I know PLENTY of kids with stats just as high as those admitted to ivies in state flagships all over the place.</p>

<p>Where do you think some of those heartbroken people wind up? And then many get involved in Honors, and various organizations and get involved in research and end up actually being intellectually stimulated and loving it.</p>

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<p>“Right. Which is what I said. If he admits to being disappointed, are you going to tell him to can the whining about his pain and suffering?”</p>

<p>No. I’m going to cry with him, help him get up, dust him off, look for the positive in the alternative, find things for him to be happy about and send him off in a new direction…and EVENTUALLY tell him to can the whining. There does come a point.</p>

<p>If the option is closed, there’s not a lot of value in whinging about it for very long.</p>

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<p>But see, it’s only the people who don’t seem to like the ambition for selective schools who use words like “tolerate” or “terrible step down.” Or even “heartbroken.” Sure, some thoughtless teenagers may say stuff like that on CC, and even some parents. But most people who are looking for those kinds of schools understand that there’s a real risk of not getting in–but they’d still really like to. Just like they’d like to make the team, or get the lead in the play, or become first chair in the orchestra, or win a writing or science prize, or become a cheerleader, or what have you. Kids with ambitions are disappointed–sometimes very, very disappointed–when they don’t get these things they are hoping for. Of course, they shouldn’t let these disappointments blight their futures. But surely none of you are suggesting that kids shouldn’t have any ambitions, that they should always be satisfied with mediocrity, that they shouldn’t push themselves to excel? I’d hate to put words in anybody’s mouth, of course.</p>

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<p>How many "where are you going next year?"s did you get as a senior? For some, like me, saying that I’m heading to North Chicago University in Mississippi isn’t quite as satisfying as claiming Harvard as my future alma mater. I know; it’s stupid and pretty immature, but I won’t deny that pride has A LOT to do with this.</p>

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<p>Same here. Our high school had a big brouhaha a few years ago when a group of parents demanded that the financially strapped district do more for their gifted and talented kids. They were OUTRAGED that their precious, extremely special snowflakes came home from school saying they were bored in honors math physics and their high-level English classes. They were FURIOUS that even in these advanced classes, their kids were surrounded by students of lesser intellect. The way they got any traction at all was by arguing that kids like theirs, but without upper-middle-class resources, were similarly “dispirited” (ucb’s word) and that the district had a legal obligation to do more for them. In response the school added a couple of AP classes for freshmen and sophomores, but it was too late for these families, whose kids were already upperclassmen. They had to muddle through without additional resources and “only” got into schools like Brown and University of Chicago.</p>

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<p>I guess sitting in a class in which the teacher has to spend most of the time teaching stuff you already know might provide some opportunity for introspection, but it’s not all that educational.</p>

<p>I don’t quite get why people are so outraged and angry at parents who want their kids to have a curriculum that fits their needs and challenges them. Is it that you don’t really believe that anybody is any smarter than anybody else? Or that people who are smart aren’t entitled to an education that fits their needs?</p>

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<p>Oh my. This hypothetical student should never never never be subjected to the horrors of the mentally deficient students at State Schools. It could lead to dire consequences. This student should only apply to the Ivy’s which, given their intellectual superiority ARE safeties in this case. </p>

<p>Good Grief Charlie Brown.</p>

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<p>The most successful people make lemonade when handed lemons - that is what makes them successful in life. This whole concept of being “dispirited” or college being the be all end all in life is really a very distorted perception of the world. College does not make the person…and to be honest it really doesn’t “hand you” opportunities…college is really just a set of experiences (academic and emotional) that help you grow as a person. It is all about what the person does with the opportunities that they have created or found. So, being the most intellectually favored person in a group of people that is deemed (by whomever) to be less talented creates a very specific opportunity. What are you going to do with it?</p>

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<p>Well put, momofboston.</p>

<p>Hunt, again–no one is disparaging anyone’s efforts to get into whatever schools they want to. This thread is about finding a safety. The OP postulated that perhaps some kids are really all or nothing when it comes to college admissions. You write about the extreme disappointment faced by these kids when they suffer rejection. If they haven’t come up with a plan B, they only have themselves to blame. I know kids like that who were very disappointed with the outcome after following an overly confident “elite-school-or-bust” strategy senior year. Because they had NO good backup plans, they are now adrift while their peers are moving on and making the best of their situations.</p>

<p>As for what people are “entitled” to–no, I don’t think an elite education is something anyone should feel entitled to. Look at what the so-called tiger parents do to supplement their kids’ formal K-12 education. They take action personally for their kids, not force strapped public school districts to divert resources from the kids at the bottom to the kids at the top.</p>

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Who, exactly, are you pushing back against?</p>

<p>Here’s a little play I just made up:
Him: Boy, Jessica Alba sure is pretty.
Her: Are you saying I’m ugly?
Him: No, I just…
Her: Are you saying that you could only achieve happiness with a woman like Jessica Alba?
Him: No, but…
Her: Are you saying that because you couldn’t marry Jessica Alba, and had to settle for an ordinary woman like me, your life is ruined?
Him: No, not at all.
Her: So, what are you saying?
Him: Nothing. Never mind.</p>

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<p>Hunt, the impasse may come from my different interpretation of the word, “safety” - to me, a “safety” for a kid who is interested in ivy league or super highly selective schools is, by definition, not a kid’s first choice. So not as OP defined it, necessarily a place the student would “want” to go - but something the student is willing to accept as an alternative - to “tolerate”, to use my own word.</p>

<p>The OP talked about someone who was just not willing to “tolerate”, my word and my interpretation of the opening post, a school that may have a significant number of other high achieving students, but would also have a large number of lower achieving students. The OP talked about this student being “dispirited” by the prospect (OP’s word), and not considering such an option as a safety. I think that’s sort of dangerous. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m willing to admit I may be, since I’m not that familiar with the super selective school admissions process. But the figures I see are pretty daunting. Even for the most elite student, the chances are slim in many cases.</p>

<p>Dispirited was the OPs word - also means depressed, disheartened, gloomy (heartbroken - my word).</p>

<p>OP’s original post left me with the impression that this alternative (i.e. state flagship would be a “terrible step down”). To the point where the kid in question would not be able to “tolerate” it.</p>

<p>Maybe I misinterpreted, but based on my interpretation, I stand by my statements regarding said kid’s situation.</p>

<p>My kid would have indeed been heartbroken if her college selections would have been a wash - THAT is something I can identify with. A dispirited, heartbroken, sad, disappointed kid. I would expect that any kid would feel that way if their very important, future shaping plans didn’t pan out the way they had hoped.</p>

<p>“only the people who don’t seem to like the ambition for selective schools who use words like…”</p>

<p>I have no problem with the ambition for selective schools AT ALL. It didn’t make sense for us, but for many others it makes total sense and I applaud their ambition. We NEED that kind of ambition and spirit in the world. But, realistically, they need to be willing to accept, as you have stated, that when the chances are slim, they need to have a back-up plan, and at some point be able to carry on and set NEW goals.</p>

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<p>The reason for starting this thread is that the above seems to be an implicit assumption in a number of other threads, including the usual ones about the value or not of going to a super-selective college.</p>

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<p>girlincross,</p>

<p>It’s not stupid or immature. You want what you want. And just to clarify, a lot of this discussion about super selective schools depends SO MUCH on where you’re from. </p>

<p>In our region it’s not as big a deal as it would be in the northeast, for example.</p>