For the child who made little effort in highschool?

ohiobassmom · June 28, 2012, 2:08pm

Absolutely not true. Incoming freshmen can get lots of merit aid. My S graduated HS with a 2.95 - not even a 3.0 - and got tons of merit at several colleges. Ivies? No. But very respectable LACs. A 2.5 is a little more challenging but there are schools that would take him and even gladly. I think a lot of those opportunities go away once you become a transfer student, but YMMV.

I agree with those who said send him with the expectation of a certain GPA, whatever that is. If he doesn’t reach it, you don’t pay.

In my S’ case, he keeps all his scholarships and financial aid (which, for this school, he earned with audition, his grades and scores and interview, etc and which total a LOT more than I personally am paying) as long as he stays above 2.0. I’d like to see higher grades from him but frankly, this is his gig, his scholarship and his loans. If he does well enough to keep them I certainly won’t yank my contribution.

(His scores were also higher than his GPA would suggest - his ACT alone got him into the honors program at his college. To stay in THAT he’ll need to keep a 3.5. We’ll soon find out if honors program perks motivate him enough to earn that consistently).

sacchi · June 28, 2012, 2:12pm

If he wants to go to a 4-yr college rather than a CC, I would let him. He will feel more ownership in his school situation if he is allowed more control over his path. (If you forced him to go to CC and he did poorly there, he could blame it on you rather than owning it himself.) But I would structure things so that he has some skin in the game for costs and clear expectations on his academic performance in order to be allowed to continue (with your financial support).

For example, you could make him take out loans to cover some of the school costs. And then you would repay the loan after he completes a semester with grades that meet some pre-determined level (but don’t be TOO aggressive here, college will be a shock to his system, and CS is a difficult field, so perhaps requiring a 2.5 GPA or better and no individual grades below a C-, for example). This is just an example, you will have to figure out what makes sense to you. But I suggest that you give him support to try to be successful at a college of his choosing, but make sure that there are consequences to him if he fails out.

MizzBee · June 28, 2012, 2:50pm

I apologize if this comes off as mean or at least grumpy, but why pay for anything when he hasn’t shown that he will put in the work? I think that time put in at an affordable option is a great idea. He has already shown that he will say what you want to hear (lying about studying for the SAT), and he has a high opinion of his abilities but nothing to back it up. Let’s say you send him off and he does poorly. You will be out money, he may even have loans and that GPA will travel with him when he finally gets his life together. I think that community college can be a great place to prove responsibility to the person that will pay for school. Maybe he needs to see what it is like for smart kids that don’t apply themselves. They often still end up asking if we want fries with that order. He has skated by and if you send him off without an attitude adjustment, he is likely to fall back on his old tricks and do enough to get by. In CS he will be competing against a lot of kids that learned how to study and manage their time. It isn’t as if we are in a booming job market and companies will hire any programmer with a pulse. Wouldn’t it be better if you didn’t have to pay a fortune while he finally grows up?

Youdon_tsay · June 28, 2012, 3:37pm

Re: post no. 21

OP implied that the schools he was interested in we’re on the selective side because his 600s on his previous SAT, fine scores, weren’t good enough. That’s why I said his 2.5 wouldn’t put him in the running for merit aid – not at the kinds of schools he seems to belooking at.

3togo · June 28, 2012, 3:57pm

OP, I’m going to be the contrarian to most of the posters. If your son goes to a lesser school or a CC (in many states where they are not very challenging) you will not be risking a lot of money but you might be risking putting your son in a situation where he can “succeed” while continuing to skate by on minimum effort. There is something to be said for him getting thrown into the toughest school to which he is accepted … a school where he would have to change his ways or sink. This is certainly a risky approach and I would expect a tough start as he learns his old ways won’t work. This could be expensive lessons but might be a worthy investment. Given an agreement that you’ll pay for 4 years of school then this might be a risk to consider.

And yes I was sort of that kid when I entered college … my grades were not that weak but I never did HW in HS and blew off a lot of assignments in classes I did not like. I went to a tough school and my first 2 years I got at least one C+, C, C-. D+, D and D- (managed to miss the F though). Eventually I found a major a loved and got a 3.7 my last two years including something like a 4.0 the last 3 semesters in my major itself. I can’t relive my life bit I’m convinced that going to a challenging school while not mature enough was absolutely what woke me up and forced me to grow up

Whatdidyou · June 28, 2012, 4:04pm

Since you seem willing and able to completely pay for his education as long as he does well (which is more generous than many), this is my advice:

<ul>
<li>Let him pick where he wants to go but encourage CC so that he can bring his grades up high enough to go to a good program. </li>
<li>If he picks a 4-year, do what you suggested, check his first (or first couple) term grades to see if they are at an acceptable level, and if not, take away your support but still offer it for CC. </li>
<li>Hopefully he’ll start to take college seriously. There are many students who do average in HS because they don’t care but then step it up to become A students in college (which is much better the doing good in HS and then partying and doing poorly in college). Your son very well may be one of these. </li>
</ul>

This attitude isn’t necessarily bad as HS grades don’t matter much (especially if you go the CC to state school route). Although, if you’re paying, you have the right to be concerned that he won’t ever take school seriously and should therefore take the above advice.

“There is nothing wrong with starting out at cc, especially in this situation. He is not going to be eligible for merit aid at 4 year schools with his grades and sat scores.”

This. CC seems like a great option to bring up grades and explore without as large financial consequences. The quality of introductory courses taught at CC vs 4-year’s is comparable, with community colleges sometimes being of an even higher quality due to small class sizes and increased resources. IMV: All the smartest middle-class students should go to CC (MANY do; especially with the recent soaring tuition costs).

CC also seems like it would be the best alternative because their are often less distractions (football games, dorms, drinking…etc) to surround your son.

ohiobassmom: For a 2.5 student, CC is almost always the cheapest alternative. & I personally rec’d a good amount of merit aid upon transfer, so the disparity probably is not as big as you imagine.

mathinokc · June 28, 2012, 4:10pm

Be aware that not all CCs are a great place to start for computer science. Our local community college is great in most areas, but the computer stuff is all vocational and none will transfer to a university. And, you certainly don’t want to spend 2 years at CC with no computer science and then try to cram all the required courses into 4 semesters.

Of course, starting at a CC isn’t a 2 year commitment. You can go for 1 year and then transfer. Even if he stays 2 years he doesn’t HAVE to pick up an associates degree – he can do what’s best for him to finish his bachelor’s.

pamom59 · June 28, 2012, 4:11pm

@Eightisgreat- I can hear your disappointment and frustration with your son. It sounds as though he has a lot of untapped potential but lacks motivation. Try as we might, we can’t “make” our children do anything, they have to want it for themselves. Perhaps the 600s were a wake-up call for him, and by October he will have studied and do better on the SATs.

Be aware that there are plenty of kids who have worked hard in high school and would be happy to get scores in the 600s on the SATs. There are colleges for every kind of kid, including the motivated hard workers who don’t test well, and those that are smart but lazy and do well on tests. I think right now you and he need to focus on the type of college where he will be best motivated and will have the best chance of success. I would also have a talk with your son and let him know that you support him and will help him find the right college for him whatever his SATs turn out to be. It seems like he has disappointed himself and you, but I can also hear that you love him and want what is best for him and he needs to know that.

You might want to get a private college counselor who can help your son to identify colleges that are a good match for his current scores, as well as some that he might “reach” for if his scores improve. Having a third party involved can help defuse some of the stress between parent and child.

I personally would resist the urge to try to “control” this type of child through threats or rewards as he seems to be the type of personality who does what he thinks is best and does not care about rewards such as grades etc. But you know your son better than I do.

I’m sure it will all work out but through your frustration I urge you to make sure that your son knows that you still love and support him despite the SAT scores not being what you both expected.

ohiobassmom · June 28, 2012, 4:19pm

youdon’tsay I understand. I was actually responding to vlines statement that he wouldn’t be eligible for merit at 4 year schools.

I was pleasantly surprised by the large merit awards given to my S by good, let’s say top 50ish USNWR LACs, given his GPA. Of course every kid brings something different to the table, mine had a good # of APs and a lot of musical talent and gives a great interview, but had I been told his grades/scores (not as good as the OP’s S) meant no merit, I might not have encouraged him to aim high.

I just wanted OP to now that merit is very likely NOT out of the question, depending, of course, on the school. And also that the conventional wisdom around here - I have no firsthand experience with this - is that transfers don’t often get packages that are as good.

The 3.0 parents threads were very helpful to me last year, OP may want to take a look at some of the schools discussed there for her S.

3togo · June 28, 2012, 4:20pm

OP, one other thought … a theme posters often mention is they would only pay full pay for a focused mature hardworking student.

I have one of those … and she would do fine wherever she was planted … she had the maturity and assertiveness to make it work in any environment … while we are paying full price for her school we consider it a luxury purchase.

I also have one who underperformed in high school … and I believe finding the right situation for him in college was trickier, more important, and has more leverage than for her sister … a poor choice and he could continue to under perform and an good choice might be what kicks him into gear. Mom3ToGo and I were more willing to pay more to get this child into the right environment than for her sister because we believe it has more leverage to his long term success.

So the question I have for you is … what is the situation that you believe is most likely to draw out your son’s potential? And are you willing to pay full fare for that option even given the risk it might not work?

VMT · June 28, 2012, 4:58pm

We went through a lot of the same questions with my son. I don’t think there are any easy answers to this. However, 3togo makes an excellent point. Finding the right environment is crucial. CC’s can be great options, but it really depends on the strengths of the particular CC and what type of students he will be surrounded by.

Comp Sci is very demanding. But, if it’s his passion, then he might be more motivated. If he excels in those courses, then maybe what is best is a school where he doesn’t have to take a lot of gen ed classes, but can focus more on the technical side. I might be wrong on that since I don’t know your son. I just think there are a lot of factors that can help him be successful or not.

Having him pay for some portion does force him to have some skin in the game. That can be a successful method. However, I have found with my son external factors have little influence. He either wants to do it (in which case he will throw himself completely into it) or he doesn’t.

I don’t know if this will help. But, my son just graduated high school. He took quite a few AP and honors classes sophomore and junior years. In some cases, he did very well. In some, his grades were more mediocre. He worked very hard in a few classes, and not hard at all in others. His grades generally reflected the level of effort.

He was not motivated to take more AP’s his senior year. None of the courses appealed to him. He did end up taking one at the urging of his guidance counselor. The summer before senior year, he researched what courses were available at our local state school which is 10 minutes away, as well as the local community colleges. He decided his time would be better spent going in this direction. He spoke to a few professors, and also his guidance counselor about structuring his senior year around his college classes. I was a little resistant. However, he had done so much of the leg work himself and found courses that would be useful and would fit in, it seemed a bad idea to say no. Now that we are on the other side of it, it was a good decision. He took 2 classes a semester - 3 of the 4 classes were very high level and required permission from the prof. We were a little disappointed with one of his grades, the others were fine. So, he learned a lot about going to college, talking to professors, schedules, where he messed up, and where things went well. Maybe this would be an option for your son.

prinswanakin · June 28, 2012, 6:04pm

I think it’s just cause he hasn’t woken up into reality yet, and needs to figure out himself before he goes to college. In order to work hard and go to college, you have to set some goals for yourself maybe that’s why he hasn’t been striving to get those high marks on the SAT. OR Maybe it’s because he keeps thinking he has a lot of time to show colleges he can receive stellar grades and hasn’t realized how much time he really has left before college applications. (hasn’t hit reality yet…) Ask him what are your goals in life, and what do you plan to do? What are your dreams?

To answer your question, I’d say community college is the best option. He’ll have two years to figure out what he wants to do in life before he transfers to a university and plus you’ll save a lot of money!

Don’t worry, teenagers are confusing and hard to understand. Sometimes you just have to understand. It takes time to mature and maybe this will be his turning point in life where he’ll be like ah…I understand now. =)

(I’m a teenager myself)

ahammond · June 28, 2012, 6:11pm

Not to be a negative nancy, but OP seriously needs to consider the fact that her son might not be as gifted as she thinks he is. I doubt that many parents would be willing to admit that their problem child is just a bad apple, rather than a misunderstood artist. Sometimes, though, you need to remove the rose tinted glasses and accept that your child might be better off as a plumber than as a biochemist. If he does have natural talent, he surely hasn’t demonstrated it. If he seems to intent to waste whatever effort his parents have put into his education, let him.

momofthreeboys · June 28, 2012, 6:37pm

I did not get the impression that the OP thought her kiddo was gifted she said her son thinks he’s smart. Possibly he thinks that because he heard it often when he was young but being precocious is not the same thing. There are many precocious kiddos in the elementary school and into early middle school. And there are a slew up smart boys who do not do well in high school although they test well so something is “sticking” in those thick teenage boy skulls. The crap shoot is some go off to college and do very well and others manage to end up on probation or dismissed and some just slide through on the Cs get you degrees plan. I think it’s entirely up to how much money the OP is willing to gamble. I’d send him to a college, his GPA will land him somewhere that he should be capable of being successful. If he screws up then he’ll be put on probation or dismissed and have to deal with a mediocre high school GPA and a poor college GPA and that will seal the fate for a few years anyway. Right now there are plenty of colleges that will take a 2.5 kid with a above average standardized test score so the gamble is the $$.

I’m not sure what “immature” means to the OP. In my experience raising them (and knowing plenty of them) they don’t really mature until their early to mid twenties…not sure one year is going to make a difference. I know a few parents who believed they had immature boys and told them to go forth, find a job and go to college in a year and most of them, after having money and freedom, didn’t do that until 22-24 and by that time the parents were willing to fork over any amount of money to get them to go to college… so it’s a gamble absolutely and one that everyone will render all kinds of differing advice.

Olymom · June 28, 2012, 7:36pm

I’ll go the opposite. I would not be at all surprised to learn this kid is EXTREMELY gifted.

We have a pair in our house (not bragging – just a roll of the genetic dice). But a kid who scores over 200 on a PSAT has got intellectual chops.

He may also have extremely low Executive Functioning (the part of the brain that uses a calendar and a clock).

Our two guys are so verbal and personable that you would not suspect any deficiencies. But these tests showed extreme deficits in one guy:

Delis-Kaplan Executive Function System (D-KEFS)
Auditory Consonant Trigrams (Brown Peterson Task)
Rey Complex Rigure Test

We had one uber bright pal at the house one night who commented “There’s no such thing as an easy A for me.” That was because a boring class did not command his respect, so he would make no effort. A very challenging class might command his respect, but then he didn’t always have the neatness/tenacity/skill set to earn the A.

I’d have the kid to the doctor with the message: underperforming teen, so let’s rule out ADD, low blood sugar, mono, food allergies and anything else that might affect concentration. Then over to Behavioral Health for the above mentioned tests and some serious conversations around:

What gives you joy?
What makes you crazy?
What is your personal credo to live by? (Be nice to dogs? Don’t spend all your money? Be green/environmentally kind in your living? . . . what ever it is, be aware of it).

Then I’d take that kid for a walk and say 1) No matter what your GPA or SAT scores, I think you are a brilliant kid. 2) If you tell me high school sucks, I’ll believe you. If you want an alternative, I’m willing to explore that and 3) I am an aging parent and I’m terrified that you don’t yet have the skill set to support yourself. What skill set can you get that alleves my terror? (make this him helping you, rather than you being God giving or withholding a handout).

I’d blow his mind with alternatives. Does he want to pause in high school and pursue a pilot’s license? Does he want a gap year right now and go work on a crabbing boat? Does he want to do home school/online school and get training in scuba diving?
How about NOLS? (outdoor leadership school).

I’d make sure he knows that NM Tech has a degree in explosives (they do!) and that a number of colleges offer degrees in Emergency Services. The Coast Guard saves lives. So do paramedics.

This bright kid may need a high adrenaline or high service path to get him moving. Put that on the table.

He may decide that he wants to stay, with friends, at the local high school and he may eventually get a degree in accounting.

But he’ll always remember that you felt he was up for a life of adventure.

Believe in him. Don’t torture him with his stumbles.

momofthreeboys · June 28, 2012, 8:16pm

^^ you are a good mom Olymom

dentmom4 · June 28, 2012, 8:56pm

ditto, Olymom. That was thought-provoking and a very interesting alternative that is definitely worth a serious conversation for OP and her son.

ahammond · June 28, 2012, 9:10pm

You have to be kidding, Olymom. You can’t send the message to your children that, if they find something boring, then it’s okay to blow it off. In a couple years when they enter the job force, do you think every career opportunity will be interesting? Even otherwise intellectually stimulating professions have spurts of tedium.

Speaking as someone who has been through the rigamarole of gifted education programs, it really irritates me when people claim that their mediocrity is a product of boring classes or an incompatible educational system. I scored a 2400 on my SAT, but I don’t take that as an excuse to blow off school. Laziness isn’t some mental condition, it’s just laziness. If you send the message now to your kids that they can simply ignore responsibilities and shift the blame to someone else, they won’t make it very far in the “real world.”

VMT · June 28, 2012, 9:52pm

Every child develops differently. I have a daughter who is bright, hard working, and deals well with the tedium of high school. Her work is neat, complete, and on time - which seems to dictate success in high school. Son is extremely creative, intellectual, articulate, mature beyond his years in some ways. BUT, he doesn’t deal well with the tedium of school. No one is claiming this is something to be proud of. It is very frustrating to watch.

I know boys who are very successful high school students, high SAT’s, outstanding grades, etc. I applaud them. Not everyone (esp. boys) has all the pieces put together by the time they are 18. Making poor decisions about whether to do homework or study isn’t necessarily a reflection of one’s intellect. It’s a reflection of one’s lack of maturity, and where they are in their brain development. My brother was actually like this. Thank goodness no one dismissed him. He is a vice president at a very large corporation. He would have made a lousy plumber.

I don’t think anyone is celebrating laziness, or excusing not doing homework or studying just because it is boring. The OP is looking to make sure her son’s strengths are cultivated so that he has a happy, productive life.

Momofbassist · June 28, 2012, 10:17pm

Boys…It can take up to age 25 for them to fully mature cognitively. Older son is a very intelligent physics major who has done exceptionally well at college but high school was a different story. His best friends were also exceptionally bright (1590 sat math and critical reading) but unmotivated during high school. Older son amazed us within one semester of college. His 2 friends have taken a little longer. One is a premed and the other an engineer. Now that they are seniors in college all 3 three have realized that they may be smart but they need to turn in assignments and might need to study for tests. They were talking recently about all going to grad school at the same place but figured out that they would probably have an amazing time but not do any work… I have a very good friend whose husband is a phd in engineering but he did not start applying himself until his junior year in college. Older son’s misspent youth has helped him during his science internship this summer. In high school, he and his friends figured out how to rewrite the programming code on their programmable calculators… These same programing skills helped this summer when he needed to rewrite the code for research programs to dummy them down to a computer with a smaller processor so he and the grad student he is working with can complete their research assignment this summer. Sometimes kids learn the most helpful skills outside of the classroom. So, community college or a good state school would be a great option if your child did not perform up to expectations in high school. Older son chose to attend a state school since he hadn’t found himself by the end of high school but has been on the dean’s list every semester at college and has worked very hard.

For the child who made little effort in highschool?

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