<p>Love Olymom’s last post. All of it. </p>
<p>While son was in middle school getting straight A’s and frustrating teachers with his indifference, I read a few helpful books. It is never to late to get some insight into boys, even when they are 18.</p>
<p>The Trouble with Boys, Peg Tyre
Boys Adrift, Leonard Sax
Real Boys, William Pollack</p>
<p>These books are not excuses for underachieving. But, they might help in understanding and offering strategies.</p>
<p>i can’t believe that in 2days there are 63 detailed posts on this. The solution can be found only by him, u’r son! My daugher is not smart. Doesn’t care what her GPa is. But her actual unweighted GPA is 3.95/4 (in 11 th grade). Not serious about ACT. Don’t even want to take SAT. I am still worried about her ACT and her future.</p>
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<p>This is wonderful, Olymom! I’m going to try to remember that suggestion. I wish I’d had all your advice while my kids were still in high school. I was one of those butt-kisser, good girl students, so it’s been tough for me to understand why my boys behave the way they do.</p>
<p>I have two boys very similar to the OP’s (grades a bit better due to easy schedules and frequent prodding). S1 had a tough first year in college–lost his 3.3-required scholarship–so maybe a gap year would have been better. We did suggest it, but like the OP’s son, he wanted college (CC was not an option with his major). He’s interested in his classes and working harder now–but if things should go downhill, gap years can always be taken later, too (I did it myself, though not because of grades). Conversations about options are ongoing; I don’t think there’s any one right answer.</p>
<p>But I don’t think laziness in high school necessarily means laziness in college, job, or life. Both my kids have had jobs since they were 14, and they always show up on time, are well-liked, and work hard, even when the work isn’t interesting. The connection between working hard and getting paid and getting ahead is obvious there. That connection isn’t always as obvious with schoolwork, so if you don’t care about grades, it’s easy to blow off those homework worksheets. My kids are intellectually curious and read more than any of their friends–in the long run that will be more important.</p>
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<p>Not to mention that kids know they’re not going to get fired from high school. They’re not going to fail out unless they REALLY screw up, and they’ll probably even still get into a “good enough” college if they throw in an assignment here and there and don’t TOTALLY check out. The level and type of motivation required to do well in HS is a lot different from work or even college. I still don’t think I’ve learned the skills to be more than a B or C student in high school, but I worked 11 hour days all week doing work so boring you wouldn’t believe with no pay for my overtime, and I didn’t bat an eye. And four of the five days, working overtime was voluntary and not really necessary. I just wanted to work.</p>
<p>That isn’t to say that lack of motivation in high school isn’t a SERIOUS problem that needs to be addressed, because learning those skills certainly paves the way for other things. But I don’t think a kid that graduates HS before he manages to grow up is destined to be a freeloader forever. I think it’s just one of those things you have to do your best to work on your kids about, and in the back of your mind remember that high school won’t predetermine very much for most children and keep that in perspective. We give a lot of second chances in this country and I think we are pretty sympathetic to the fact that not everybody is as grown up as is preferable at 14-20. That doesn’t mean you give up on instilling that discipline and that motivation, but you don’t panic, either, or make sweeping generalizations about what the future will bring.</p>
<p>Lots of great advice here! OP, one thing you should try to remember: Years from now, do your best not to second guess your choices; the armchair quarterbacks will say you obviously should’ve done “X” but the range of suggestions and anecdotes on this thread should tell you there are no guarantees about how your son will develop; you can make your best guess about what might help, and you should set boundaries so that your retirement isn’t put at risk, but in the end you can’t control his behavior. One piece of advice re: disincentives: keep in mind whether you can count on yourself not to give in when he (inevitably?) does poorly.</p>
<p>In HS, D1 was an under achiever, but different than your son - lower test scores and higher GPA; we tried everything in HS, but she had her own sense about what was “good enough” regarding academics. . She was immature and would disengage from courses where she was having trouble (and study for the ones where she was doing well), but she was a hard worker outside of school. We’re middle class, couldn’t afford our EFC and knew we’d be borrowing much of the cost so the financial stakes around her taking more than 4 years to graduate were very high. Can’t say we made all the right choices, but this is what we did and how she performed; still not sure what I would do differently:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>We limited her applications to in state publics. Her HS academics were erratic (including failing a course) and even if she could’ve gotten merit from a lower ranked private, we felt we couldn’t afford the exposure of an expensive school where she could easily lose aid (and the drama of deciding whether she should stay after losing aid). We discounted CC as in HS she’d always perform better in honors/AP classes (and worse if she was in what she’d call “the dumb kids class”), and I thought she’d get discouraged and give up in early CC courses where many students wander in but aren’t destined to finish.</p></li>
<li><p>We offered to pay all costs if she commuted but required her to take student loans if she lived away (her loans would cover about half room & board); she opted to live away, saying she was so unhappy at home she was sure she’d get better grades if she moved out (!). She didn’t do well and we tried insisting she come home at the end of the first year, but relented after pleas she would do better; after 2 years, she came home herself, mainly out of concern at her growing loan debt in light of how little she was achieving (she had dropped and retaken a few classes by then). Her having some skin in the game seemed to be a big part of her finally starting to grow up. She next did a year of CC (for which we covered all costs), virtually straight A’s in tough CC classes, and then went back to living at the 4 year school.</p></li>
<li><p>We started out with some vague agreement that she’d cover the costs of classes she failed, and half the cost of classes where she passed with less than a C, but so far haven’t enforced that. I was worried she would gravitate to easier courses instead of heading towards a tougher but maybe more marketable degree. Also, as she seemed to mature, we found ourselves wanting to put the past behind us and to focus on how she finally seemed to have her act together. </p></li>
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<p>D1 is in nursing school now with one year left to earn her BSN so she’s not out of the woods yet. I sympathize with the OP, there’s nothing more frustrating than seeing your kids not achieve what everyone thinks they’re capable of; and once they’re away at school (no more parent teacher conferences or seeing grades every week), it becomes even tougher to know when they’re really doing their best.</p>
<p>Speaking as a student I think it is important that he finds what will motivate him. From my understanding your son is very smart, probably much smarter then me. That being said I realized early on what I want to do with my life/what college I hope to attend. I take all honors courses (and AP’s next year) and with the exception of one semester where I had struggled (it was an ugly 3.6 semester) I have had at least a 3.9 every semester. Don’t push him too much (my friends who are much smarter then me, but feel stress from home shut down and get around a 3.5). Instead take him on college visits, have him talk with people in the computer science, give him information about programs he would be interested in. It will be too late to really bring up his grades, but it might give him the motivation he needs…
Good luck!</p>
<p>Uh, wow! I’m full of stuff to say but I feel I better restrain somewhat since i am a high school junior. I don’t know why this post really got to me. Obviously i cant empathize fully with the parent role but the frustration and emotion still gave me pause. I guess the first thing that struck me is whether or not something is going on that you’re not telling us? I mean you say there’s no drugs but has there been anything else that has changed or become a factor since he started changing academically? Could it be as siple as he just got totally over his head with it all as time and coursework got harder? I guess I wonder at what point he started not being honest with you? Is it only school thatbhe blows off or makes excuses for/about? If you had a college fund already planned I feel it should be used for him in some way. I don’t think the community college probation stint is a bad idea if it comes to that. Btw, ass u me much? You said (sic)Most people’s parents on here can afford a child’s college education even if the kid isn’t cutting it…really? I didn’t notice any credit apps on the registration for this group. I can empathize with him if he is just totally bunt. I went to a prep school and the competition is horrendous. Now I get to do about 6-8 more years of it after I graduate next year. Everyone is different and the factors involved in their maturation affect that process. I’m not saying to cut him any slack or that I know because I am a parent. I am the polar opposite type of student from what you are describing him as. I don’t however, want to lose that part of me that realizes that in life, both professionally and interpersonally, we need all types of people to function as a society. Trying to pile everyone of us into some über academic race to the finish is unrealistic. I truly hope that you guys connect on what he really wants for himself. That means what he is going through now and what he will encounter in the near future . He needs to know that you want to hear his aspirations because I know I have to bring my parents back to planet reality when it comes to their hopes and aspirations for me plenty of times. I sincerely hope that he is a good person. That’s the thing I would want someone to say about me now and in the future. Even before my name had M D, pHd, dPsy, j d or stay at home mom or whatever.</p>
<p>Frankly, even as an 18 year old guy who’s seen friends go through similar situations, I can’t explain why under-achievement is so rampant among boys and young men. However, I believe it’s usually something we grow out of.</p>
<p>I agree with ArtsyGirl13 that it’s important for for anyone who’s a slacker to find something to motivate them. I’ve always been a good student who cares a lot about his schoolwork and even I couldn’t avoid a slump in which I nearly failed two classes and had a C in AP physics B (which had a lot of grade inflation on top of that) throughout my junior year of high school. I probably should have dropped to easier classes, but I didn’t because I clung onto hope that I would find my grove at some point along the way. I honestly didn’t know why I was doing poorly, I honestly wanted to try, but I didn’t know how, so I ended up frustrated and many nights I totally blew off studying, stayed up really late procrastinating, or just did nothing. Essentially I stopped caring and I descended into underachieverdom. Somehow I always did my homework, but I was never engaged in it… I just did it so I would get it out of the way (and because I have strict parents) and that hurt my in class test scores a lot. I pulled out of it by finding out I want to go into physics and mathematics and a rediscovered an old love of all science I had right up until maybe the end of freshman year of high school. Suddenly schoolwork had purpose again and I was able to work through my faults and do well my senior year taking the freshman chem and lab course at a nearby university and 4 AP classes along with self studying for AP physics C mechanics exam (I regret chickening out and not taking both AP physics C exams). When I made my senior year schedule, logic dictated that it was a terrible idea to pick such a hard schedule after doing so poorly in a much easier one the year before, but I did anyone, and the impending challenge got me motivated to work hard the summer before. I ended up graduating in the top 7 percent of my class. My rank is weighted… so, thank you AP level classes and I went to a big school with around 700 in my class, so my rank only sounds decent when I say it as a percent. First half of senior year I had mostly A’s (just one B and in calc BC. Probably the reason I was waitlisted at many schools instead of outright rejected) and eventually worked up to all A’s 4th quarter. Nowadays I mostly read, do math problems, and I’m involved in a research project with a local physics Ph.D who teaches in my high school. </p>
<p>Sometimes it just hits you, and you realize that as pointless much of high school seems, it’s the hoop you have to jump through in order to really set yourself to do something bigger outside of it. I like to blame the curriculums and school systems because laziness is really rampant among high school boys (and almost as rampant among high school girls). I feel like so many in my high school (including myself), even some of the kids that appear to have been more successful than me even though they lack the academic work ethic and often, more importantly, just a bit of perspective of what it really takes to do well. Many just falsely assume “Oh well, [student name] is just smarter than the rest of us and that’s why he’s at the top of the class,” when in reality hard work is more likely the big factor that overshadows innate intelligence.</p>
<p>Which brings me to another point, “smart but lazy” slackers need to quit being full of themselves. If you’re not doing any homework, and you’re not getting the grades, what is there that makes you smart? a 1900 on the SATs? then what. A 1900 isn’t even that impressive. It’s a above average, sure, but hundreds of thousands out of the 1.65 million kids who took it in 2011 do even better every year. It’s not even in the 90th percentile. What really makes the difference is taking ownership of your academics and ultimately your life. That alone can make one feel quite good and quite accomplished and in retrospect, being lazy feels horrible.</p>
<p>I am an 18 year old guy who sees friends go through similar situations in which they do poorly in school all the time. I can name many male friends of mine who are in fact closet intellectuals who are naturally intelligent, but don’t apply themselves outside of video games, internet, and books (yes, I know many guys who at least claim to be avid readers despite poor performance in school)</p>
<p>Looking at the reviews, the books VMT linked seem very intriguing. I’ve loved most of my teachers. Maybe there are flaws in curriculums, but the big issue is probably a much wider cultural problem as well as a lack of understanding when it comes to the fact that boys do in fact develop differently than girls. </p>
<p>Now that I think of it, it’s really rather annoying how men are nowadays very often portrayed as either lazy slobs, mindless jocks, complete idiots, or sex obsessed, which really begs the question if men simply lack positive role models as children. On the other hand, lately we’ve had a very good run with successful strong, intelligent, and yet caring female role models Don’t get me wrong, that’s not a bad thing. Some of my favorite pop culture books and media portray women as such. </p>
<p>I agree with ArtsyGirl13 that it’s important for for anyone who’s a slacker to find something to motivate them. I’ve always been a good student who cares a lot about his schoolwork and even I couldn’t avoid a slump in which I nearly failed two classes and had a C in AP physics B (which had a lot of grade inflation on top of that) throughout my junior year of high school. I probably should have dropped to easier classes, but I didn’t because I clung onto hope that I would find my grove at some point along the way. I honestly didn’t know why I was doing poorly, I wanted to try, but I didn’t know how, so I ended up frustrated and many nights I totally blew off studying, stayed up really late procrastinating, or just did nothing. Of of which, was really an extension of a lazy streak that started at the end of my freshman year but didn’t hurt me until later. Essentially I stopped caring and I descended into underachieverdom. Somehow I always did my homework, but I was never engaged in it… I just did it so I would get it out of the way (and because I have strict parents) and that hurt my in class test scores a lot. I pulled out of it by finding out I want to go into physics and mathematics and a rediscovered an old love of all science I had right up until maybe the end of freshman year of high school. Suddenly schoolwork had purpose again and I was able to work through my faults and do well enough senior year to move from a rank around the top 15% to the top 7% of my class of 700. When I made my senior year schedule, logic dictated that it was a terrible idea to pick an all AP and dual enrollment schedule after doing so poorly on an easier one the year before, but I did anyway, and the impending challenge got me motivated to work hard the summer before by self studying and taking a summer biochem class (a subject way out of my league that really ending up motivating me). Nowadays I mostly read, do math problems, and I’m involved in a research project with a local physics Ph.D who teaches in my high school. </p>
<p>Sometimes it just hits you, and you realize that as pointless much of high school seems, it’s the hoop you have to jump through in order to really set yourself to do something bigger outside of it. I like to blame the curriculums and school systems because laziness is really rampant among high school boys (and more common than I expected among girls even). I feel like so many in my high school (Including myself. I’m still a work in progress.) don’t understand the work ethic that’s truly involved if you want to do something you feel is meaningful on a deep level and more importantly, just a bit of perspective of what it really takes to do well. Many just falsely assume “Oh well, [student name] is just smarter than the rest of us and that’s why he’s at the top of the class,” when in reality hard work is more likely the big factor that overshadows innate intelligence.</p>
<p>Which brings me to another point, “smart but lazy” slackers need to quit being full of themselves. If you’re not doing any homework, and you’re not getting the grades, what is there that makes you smart? a 1900 on the SATs? then what. A 1900 isn’t even that impressive. It’s a above average, sure, but hundreds of thousands out of the 1.65 million kids who took it in 2011 do even better every year. It’s not even in the 90th percentile. What really makes the difference is taking ownership of your academics and ultimately your life. That alone can make one feel quite good and quite accomplished and in retrospect, being lazy feels horrible and I never want to get back to that ever.</p>
<p>I Apologize for the multiple posts. It’s probably because of sever error but I didn’t think they would happen. Moderators please delete everything but this last post.</p>
<p>He may need a little time - perhaps a gap year - but you should help him get to college and achieve a bachelor’s degree. Life is an uphill battle.</p>
<p>It’s hilarious to me that kids who are in AP courses and 1800+ SAT scores can be considered “slackers”. I graduated high school with a 2.7, never took an honors or AP course, never took the SAT or ACT. This probably describes the majority of my graduating class (not kidding) at a decent, suburban high school. The majority of kids I know from high school ended up at community college. Now, this might be a different situation because I live in California and CA public universities are very good and quite easy to transfer to. I just finished my second year of community college and currently have a 3.6 GPA and will be attending UCSB or UCLA in a year. </p>
<p>I found college to be WAY better than high school, although admittedly, I hated high school with a passion. No required homework every night, no pointless projects and busywork, no mandatory attendance. The environment at college was much better for me. I chose the teachers I wanted, I chose the classes, I chose how many units to take, when to go to school, and could drop classes if I didn’t like them. I didn’t feel like I was being forced to go to school and sit through classes I hate with teachers I hate. I skipped school probably 40+ times my senior year of high school. </p>
<p>I would suggest sending your son to community college first. It will save tons of money, and he will decide for himself if college is right for him and start taking it seriously, or drop out and do something else. That’s right, college isn’t for everyone <em>gasp</em>. Ultimately, your son has to find out what he wants do with his life and I guarantee you he won’t be a slacker if he does what he truly loves.</p>
<p>I completely agree with ^, often people who are doing what they’re passonate about will get further in life than the student at uc Berkeley or even Harvard who has no idea what they want to do with their lives. And, yes, college isnt for every one.</p>
<p>Sent from my SGH-T959V using CC</p>
<p>was in the same boat as your son. Probably worse. I didn’t even know him at this time. But he tells me HS was boring, he thought there was no need to do homework if he knew his definition of “enough” of the material; he was basically adrift, hanging out with friends, but had a passion for racing dirt bikes. He actually didn’t graduate with his class and had to go to summer school because he failed gym-- yes gym-- he had skipped to many classes!</p>
<p>His going to summer school overlapped with the start of CC where he was planning to go and take some General Ed courses to see if anything sparked his interest. He decided to take a year off, his parents worried he would never go back. </p>
<p>He spent his off year racing dirt bikes, something he truly loved and working at a car wash. His Mom saw how dedicated he could be when truly in love with doing something-- he worked all day and practiced racing all evening. Guys that worked at the car wash worked some of his shifts and gave him a flexible schedule so he could travel and race out of state. He did quite well, ranked in the top 20 as an Amateur in the NE at one point. But after two years he knew he wasn’t going pro and didn’t want to stay at the car wash.</p>
<p>Maybe this time matured him, maybe he saw where hard work could get him, but when he entered CC the following Fall he loved it and thrived in a college environment without what he called all of the HS “rules”. He declared a major in Environmental Science and entered a program where there was an agreement with SUNY ESF that all of his credits would transfer. Not to say his first semester was easy, but he adjusted. By the end of CC he graduated Cum Laude and also with the same honor at SUNY ESF. He went on to a Graduate program and worked for the Adirondack Park Agency for a while before starting his own business and becoming a Firefighter, a true passion.</p>
<p>I guess I’m just saying happiness, maturity and the ability to support yourself and the earning of a college degree is not always a straight path from point A to point B. Many kids with 4.0+ gpa’s quit or fail out of school every year. Some of them never had to study in HS and don’t adjust well to not being the best anymore. Your son is going to do what he wants to do. You have to be there to share your wisdom, hope he wants to change, and tell him what your comfortable with paying or not paying for. He sounds like a good kid, he’ll find his way. </p>
<p>If he insists on college right away, I’d send him to a state school where he could live on campus. Total immersion. The one thing husband didn’t like about CC was how classes were often filled or very large, it was hard to connect with peers when you went home every night, and there wasn’t the feeling in the dorms of “we’re in this together” like I had my first
year of college. I think that really helps.</p>
<p>What does he want? What motivates him? Is he a hands on person? Artistic? What kind of career does he see himself doing? Underachieving gifted boys are tough. They are amazing when they want something. Find what he wants and support it. Visit as many colleges as possible. Ithaca college, for example, has a major for kids who don’t know what they want to major in. Hofstra is very open to bright B students. Lynn University in Florida has a wide variety of choices. Those are just some situations I ran across. From everything in your post, I don’t get a sense of him. Sometimes kids just tune out what doesn’t interest them or want to do it their way. Some colleges understand and respect that. There is a book called “colleges for B students”. I think there are a lot more questions to answer than whether or not to send him to school. Unless he is an entrepreneur or really good at real estate or car sales or a technical skill like big rig operator or welding…etc. which all can be very lucrative careers, I don’t think he wants to be out there in the real world without a degree…just about everyone wants to see a degree now a days even to get an interview. Good luck. He sounds like a really great kid that just doesn’t really get into school at the high school level.</p>
<p>I think there are a lot of good comments here so thanks everyone for posting.</p>
<p>I agree with the people who say make him take responsibility for his own actions. I was raised knowing that my mom wouldn’t yell at me for not doing homework, but that my grades could only be attributed to the effort I put in. For a while, I enjoyed taking advantage of that; had my middle school calculated GPA, mine would have been easily less than a 3.0 even though every one of my classes was the highest level possible (plus a grade ahead in math) and I always tested in the 99th percentile.
It wasn’t until after I got a 2.85 in freshman year that I realized that grades were worth the effort (which I think your son will realize, too, if you let him do it on his own). The rest of my high school grades were 3.6, 3.85, and 4.0, leading me to graduate with a 3.6 overall. I got into JHU, CMU, and UMD, where I will be in the Honors College next fall, continuing to get good grades, paying for my own education, and meeting the goals I set for myself and ignoring the majority of ones set by others.
Give him time, he’ll make it work! It might not be pretty and it might not be what you imagine for him, but it’ll happen.</p>
<p>honestly, have you thought your son might not be telling you something? maybe he’s depressed right now, and feels like there’s not really a path for him? i’m a high school senior, so I can sort of relate to him.</p>
<p>Yeah, I know A LOT of people who went through something at somepoint in their high school career (I, myself, went through a year of anorexia that droppef me to a 3.3 sophomore year. 
)</p>
<p>Sent from my SGH-T959V using CC</p>
<p>Take your son on a college tour this summer if you can. Sometimes kids who don’t listen to their parents will really take it all in while listening to an admissions counselor. He needs to hear for himself how selective uni’s are, at least ones with great comp sci degrees like it sounds like he is interested in. My son came to that realization this summer during our tour. Perhaps it will “click” with your son. He also saw campus life and loved it. He realized he would like to be a part of that. For that reason, I don’t recommend cc or even commuter colleges. Threaten him with a minimum gap or he’s coming home. Hopefully, he will love it enough that that won’t be an option.</p>
<p>This is a matter of maturity and that light is going to have to go off for HIM. Do what you can to help him. I do not recommend allowing him to take a year off because it could turn in to forever. You are still here to guide him in his decisions, but remember, you can’t tell him anything…instead you have to guide him to figuring it out. Good luck.</p>
<p>Heh to the OP, your kid sounds a lot like me when I was his age except I took the extra step of going to one of those “sign up” schools. Lo and behold to make a long story short, I ended changing my major three times in a year and half, wasting a lot of money, and I still had no clue what I wanted to do with my life. Fortunately for me, I figured out a solution on my own, that was to join the Army in order to give me some time to think. It worked, after numerous “physical corrective training” sessions in the three years I’ve been in, I can safely say the Army did straighten me up since I now have a clear goal for this second round of college.</p>
<p>But the military is not for everyone, I say let him find his own answers and he will eventually find them when he realizes that his life is going nowhere. No need to rush into college, I wish I had learned that lesson earlier.</p>